Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Malta Glass => Topic started by: chilternhills on July 22, 2016, 01:17:11 PM
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I have a query from a collector about his Mdina vase. I am fairly sure the vase is by Mdina but I have some questions about the signature. It is clearly not Michael Harris, but could it be Eric Dobson or Joseph Said? There is what appears to be loop a bit like an S and therefore Said and the date 1972. I understand that Dobson and Said added dates, but it is not usual for Mdina pieces.
Thanks for your help.
Anton
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I have images of confirmed Said and Dobson signatures.
However, they were confirmed by Ron Wheeler some time ago and I'm not sure that Marie, Vicente Boffo's daughter, has not since said something about these.
Here are the images anyway.
First, Said's then Dobson's.
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It looks like Said's signature to me. The G in Glass is very similar in style and is not like Dobson's G. The 7 in the date is very like the 7 in Said's signature. And that loop in the middle of Said's signature is quite similar too.
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I tend to look on the spikey ones as being Dobson's, but I think Marie said that there were a few folk who made the marks, so while we may think they are represented to be by either Joseph Said or Eric Dobson, the actual marks may have been made by several different folk.
I think the reality is that the best description might be to say they have an artist's mark, rather than a signature.
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As I said, I wasn't just looking at the indecipherable scrawl at the bottom but also the characteristics of the other words and the date. I think these are a more reliable guide and are more consistent.
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I suppose most folk know I don't really put much store in signatures and marks, they don't really interest me.
Just the glass itself does. :)
I find the date to be the only informative thing - and the fact that it was only really major pieces that ended up being marked with something that looks like an artist's signature.
Loads of different folk at the factory made the marks. It wasn't just Said or Dobson. There really isn't any point in trying to do some sort of handwriting analysis. :)
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To make a fish vase took a lot of skill and Said, as chief glass blower at Mdina in 1972, certainly had the skill. According to Mark Hill's book fish vases became squarer in shape after the Harris family left Malta in the summer of that year. This particular vase fits that changed shape. I must disagree: there is definitely a point in a bit of handwriting analysis here!
In my view signatures add to the history of a piece and gives appropriate recognition to the skill of the maker. But I am with you when a signature multiplies the selling price to a stupid degree. It is the piece that counts most to me too. The piece is the signature, as it were. But perhaps that is because we know their work well and sometimes the artists personally too. But what about, say, in 200 years time? The piece will still be appreciated, but what about the artist or designer? There has been so much frustrated head-scratching on this forum because unmarked pieces can't be identified.
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To make a fish vase took a lot of skill and Said, as chief glass blower at Mdina in 1972,
I think you will find that the glassblower with the most skill was Vicente Boffo who joined Mdina in mid 1970 and left sometime after 1975.
Cheers,
Patrick.
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Joseph Said got very, very good at working glass very, very quickly - he's got an affinity with it.
I'm well aware that the shape is likely Said's, I'd never have mistaken it for a Harris piece and it lacks the finesse of Boffo.
I'm just saying that lots of different people at the factory scratched the Said and Dobson "signatures".
Not neccessarily Said or Dobson themselves, which is why any analysis of writing is pointless.
The other workers were trying to emulate the scrawls.
The mark really doesn't signify anything beyond giving the date, made at Mdina and considered an important enough art piece that it should look as if it was signed by an artist.
These pieces with more marks on the base, (a date and a scrawl) tend to be Fish vase, cubes, the great big two-tone strapped bottles and cut-ice Lollipops.
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Please read this previous post. Whilst Jim Munnelly was at Mdina all the pieces with signature were signed by Dobson or Marie. Said was not signing anything certainly up to August 1975 when Jim Munnelly left Mdina.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,61584.0.html
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[Mod: correction to text as advised by OP]
Vicente Boffo never made Fish vases at Mdina, when arrived Harris was making these with Jim Munnelly when Jim Munnelly arrived he was making these with Harris, likely also with Ettore Boffo and Said being the boy. The making of the fish vases was a team effort, here is quote from Jim Munnelly,
"Hi Wolfie, fish were a Mdina design and made in a team environment, t. member 1 blows a coloured ball picks up silver chloride, cases it and blows and shapes that into a lollipop shape with a short neck, passes that to, T M 2 who side dips in clear lifts clear of molten glass turns new dip allowing tail to fall across the face, withdraw and shape on flat plate repeat this process on the other side. Second dip was a very tricky one after the second dip the size of the piece was close to that of the furness opening plus the item had softened and that glassmaker would need to withdraw quick allowing for the downward bend.
T M 3 would then reverse onto punty reheat the neck draw cold snap top and melt to finish chip off and kiln the finished piece One person could easily do the whole thing or you could have 5 people Doing the dips was the longest part and not practical to split. When I was there I always did the dip stage, when on leave or after I left either Joey, Michael, would have be able to do it. The shape may have developed away from the status quo of the time as it did when I joined. Pappa (V. Boffo) never did it to my knowledge not because of skill, but because that was one heavy item on the end of an iron. I would say it was made when I was in the team.
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Thanks, Wolfie.
I didn't know how to find the correct thread and couldn't remember the correct info. exactly either. :-[
But I do have a tiny Fish vase, that Tim Harris told me was made at Mdina towards the end of '68, (illustrated below) and MH did make this design at the RCA too, albeit in small versions. (no illustration, I don't have one.)
There are also the early Fish vases of just one colour and clear, which have double-dipped wings - have you any idea if Jim Munelly would have been involved with these? I'm not sure of the exact dates of these although I know they are very early. (illustrated below)
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Having trouble with images being refused...
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I do have a tiny Fish vase, that Tim Harris told me was made at Mdina towards the end of '68, (illustrated below) dates of these although I know they are very early. (illustrated below)
I love these vases you have shown us.........
What size is the one you mention in your comment above ?
Cheers,
Patrick.
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More examples Patrick, all between 6 and 7 inches tall.
John
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Baby Fish is 3.75" tall, 6.5" wide.
Much smaller than John's or my other two.
And a lot smaller than its image, when enlarged. ;D
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Getting back to the signatures, it has been presumed over the years that as Said was making these vases he was also signing them. This has now been put into extreme doubt but it’s hard to stop these sort of myths that have been bandied about for years. Quite likely some collectors who think they have Said’s signatures will not like to know this but he didn’t sign them. Dobson was in charge and if he and Marie had always been signing these large fish vases etc I don’t see any reason for this to change after Munnelly left in 75.
From what Jim Munnelly says it was only Dobson and Marie signing and Marie did it when Dobson wasn't available which means that Dobson and Marie would have both signed Said pieces. Dobson did not make any glass (and Marie was in charge of packing) so this all leads to the conclusion that all these pieces had a signature on them for the sake of it and it doesn’t actually represent the person who made (or designed) them. You can only presume that Dobson and Marie were signing scribbled names on these just so these better pieces looked like they had an ‘artists’ signature.
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These myths are like hydra headed monsters, damn tough to kill! Thanks for the clarification and further info Wolfie.
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Sorry I made a slight error, the lady in charge of packing was named Maria not Marie, full name Maria Giusti.