Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Laird on August 02, 2016, 10:28:35 AM
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I am a newcomer to glass collecting and to this Board.
My interest is in Victorian era port and wine glasses which I find at antique fairs etc., without knowing anything more than what I have read so far. I have in a few months, collected about 20 pieces and hopefully from reading the threads on this MB I'll expand my knowledge about what I am looking at.
This small glass has a folded foot. The pontil is rough and sharp. The glass itself is not clear but has what I would describe as a greyish colour.
Is it possible to approximately date this glass? Thank you.
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Hi Laird,looks like an interesting glass,could you do bigger photos and give the dimensions of the the glass ,cheers.
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Thank you for responding.
The dimensions are as follows,
Height 11 cms
Bowl diameter 5 cms
Foot diameter 6.2 cms
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Hi again,the foot makes me feel it could be mid 18th century rather than the later revisited folded feet,maybe a gin glass?Do you know if it's leaded?..Peter will point you in the right direction and I could be way off.
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Interesting.
i have no idea how to know if it is leaded. The colour is definitely grey and not clear/colourless.
I did read somewhere that the foot of Georgian glasses can have a larger diameter than the bowl.
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If it rings with a light flick of the finger can be a sign,soda glass will have a dull sound with no resonance.Other things to look for with older glass are trapped air bubbles ,small white stones and small black seeds.You should be able to see tooling marks on the glass and a slight high blip on the rim somewhere.Be warned, if you get the bug for this type of glass it's seriously addictive. ;)
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Air bubbles - Yes
Blip on rim - a slight one, or at least uneveness.
Small white stones - Yes.
Not sure about resonance when I flick the rim edge.
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It maybe A continental glass,perhaps Dutch.The foot is quite distinctive,but I'm on very edge of my little knowledge here and hopefully we can get more input later.
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Hi Laird,could you do a photo of the base showing the pontil and folded foot and a close up of the foot itself,in fact a set of close ups of different parts of the glass would be helpful and may encourage others to comment,thanks.
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Pics closeup as requested,
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I know nothing at all about these glasses but can you describe the rim /lip of the glass please?
Is it folded? or cut and polished? it's probably just the photos making it look like that somehow (and given I have no idea about these things :-[) but it just looked a bit odd in the photos.
And if you amend you photos to size pixels 600x400 they should fit and should enlarge enough for detail to be seen :)
thanks
m
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I'd rather go with the 'wine' suggestion I think. This overall shape, with the annular knop and bucket bowl, and with or without the folded foot, must be one of the most common shapes of small drinking glasses, and occurs across the spectrum of good and bad quality pieces.
bat has already mentioned the prolonged appearance of the folded foot, so my opinion is this feature not too much help with this particular glass, although granted the foot appears rather 'high' which ordinarily suggests C18, but not on this occasion in my opinion.
John Brooks has commented ........"The thing to bear in mind is the style of the whole glass, particularly the bowl,. "Where rummer shapes are copied, that should establish the date with certainty." He's referring here to the commonly seen - but of course much larger - bucket shaped rummer with a single bladed or annular knop which was popular in the first quarter of the C19.
This style is also a shape that is almost impossible to find in Bickerton - except, of course, on an early C19 Rummer.
There's no mistaking the lead glass 'ring', so if this not present, then this could be another reason for thinking this one is more likely to be first quarter of C19.
Of course these comments are mostly just my opinion - others may have a better idea.
Ref. 'The Arthur Negus Guide to British Glass' - John Brooks - 1981.
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The rim folds outwards, and there is a high note ping.
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The only one I thought came close in Bickerton was photo 150,6.5" wine glass with RF bowl(round funnel),.I think at 11cm this glass may be a port glass perhaps gin?.The foot seems high reminding me of liege glass although they are leaded with interesting textured bowls,so maybe another French glass house if it's soda glass ,or with little lead.Sorry to muck you about laird ,although this floundering about is a good way to pick stuff up even if it's not relevant to your glass. ;)
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perhaps there's an edition variation here?............ my photo 150 (page 89) shows a wine with 'nipt diamond waies' - obviously nothing to do with the glass posted here. Is your copy the 1971 first, or the 1986 revised? Of course you may well be correct, there is no really certain way of determining origin, easily.
there may be some confusion here - to my eyes the top rim doesn't have a fold - at least not in the usual similar way that feet have a fold :-\
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Fold is perhaps the wrong way to describe it. I don't have the technical vocabulary when it comes to glass.
It is clearly not a fold, but when I run my fingers round the rim I can feel it extending outwards, like a ridge.
Sorry it's causing such difficulty. I thought it was probably a standard 18th century drinking glass, and I would like to pinpoint if possible just when it was likely to have been made. I based my dating on something I read that 18th century drinking glasses of this type could have a smoky grey tinge, like this one.
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It's the 72 American edition Paul and the photo section hasn't page numbers.
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top rim not folded then ........ possibly described as slightly everted or turned outward.
sorry, no idea of the U.S. edition - but I don't see a glass quite like this in my U.K. copy of Bickerton - however, am inclined to revise my description of the bowl shape to 'round funnel' perhaps, or maybe transitional and part way toward a bucket shape - and yes, possibly Continental.
Difficulties not a problem - it's just that 'pinpointing' is usually asking for a little too much precision ;) - most of the time dating to within a couple of decades is about as near as you will get. Style, fashion etc. are driven by a variety of reasons and most of the categories into which drinking glasses fall - folded feet for example - overlap in terms of time lines, often by a wide margin, so not too difficult to make a mistake when dating on the basis of a single feature.
Sharp pontil scars exist durng the first 60 or so years of the C18, then tend to fall away, but - they exist not uncommonly on some glasses made in the C19, and 'smokey grey tinges' alone could be misleading.
Aside from the folded foot, this glass lacks other features to help with dating, so you may find it difficult to make further progress. As we've discussed, this was a common shape which no doubt lasted for some considerable time, and I'm still inclined to go for first quarter C19 - but am always ready to stand corrected.
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Just a question, if Laird can feel a ridge when she/he runs her/his finger around the lip or the rim of the bowl, could that mean it has been cut and polished? Sorry, as I say, I shouldn't take part when I know nothing about this type of glass but I'm just wondering if the glass has been cut down maybe- :-[ :-[
Feel free to tell me to bow out ;D
m
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It's in the Balustroids section and just has things about it slightly similar,it has a shoulder knop and a centre one,right next to it is another glass with a annular knop and ogee bowl.It also has a small basal knop and I'm just wondering if there's a hint of one on Lairds glass?.Got to agree with you Paul on the grey colour ,that could mean all sorts!?
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Could be m,just to remove a chip or something.?
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dear m, we'd never tell you to bow out :-* I understand that cut/polished rims do often indicate non-British origin - and there are a lot of non-British places in the world.
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:) thanks
dog with bone and all that ... but would one expect to see a cut rim on that kind of glass with that kind of foot and of an age? Just curious.
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In reply to the first poster asking what kind of glass it is, age etc it looks like a dram glass (dram glasses are usually around 4 inches) with bucket bowl, a bladed knop stem on a folded conical foot - that would date it to pre 1745 as folded feet died out after the tax on glass increased in 1745 ...hope that helps!
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couldn't agree less ;) :)
If you look in Bickerton at drams from the period you mention (mid C18), there appears little similarity with the shape of the op's glass here.
With drams from c. 1745 the stems are un-adorned, the bowls mostly ovoid or ogee and smaller in capacity - heights can of course vary.
I could be wrong, but the knop on this glass looks more like an annular or flattened example rather than bladed.
Folded feet certainly decreased after 1750 - 60, but as mentioned earlier in this thread, they also re-appear not uncommonly in the first quarter of the C19, so not a reliable guide on their own.
The Excise Act of 1745 (implemented the following year I believe) didn't increase the tax on glass, it was rather the beginning of something that was doubled in 1777, and I think levied even higher in subsequent decades, and it was for this reason that around 1745 or a little later that some English manufacturers re-located to Ireland, which at that date was unaffected by what was an English revenue only. However, if you know of an earlier Excise Act do please say - according to the books 1745 was the first of such revenues acts on glass in the U.K.
sorry, just realized my lack of courtesy - welcome to the GMB by the way. :)
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At a glance the stem looked bladed but on closer inspection yes it's a flattened :) I still say it's a dram glass as I've never came across any gin glasses with bowls that size but I'm no seasoned collector , in fact I'm very much a novice lol
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no matter - we all start somewhere :)
Can only refer again to Bickerton - where his gin glasses have bowls with a capacity smaller than the piece here. I had an idea that gin was included in those strong liquors that would have been drunk from dram glasses.......... if you have the book do have a look at those pieces described as being for gin - my opinion is that thinking of gin won't really help with the glass here.
Again, in the same book, it's surprising the variation in bowl shape and size of those glasses described as wine glasses - bowls both smaller and larger than this one were used for wine.
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Here's a selection of Georgian gin glasses ,to compare sizes..http://scottishantiques.bmobilized.com/?task=get&ihash=5c4f6e2cb1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fscottishantiques.com%2FGeorgian-drinking-glasses%2Fantique-gin-glass
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I expect that there were numerous glass makers active at any one time, so there must have been considerable variability in the actual shapes / designs / dimensions etc of the glasses they were producing. They didn't all work according to one specific rigid design template surely? So why shouldn't there be a large degree in variation within any specific class or type of glass?
Because of the variability, attributing a date to a glass of this type surely must be based on an estimation of probability, based on experience gained from looking at many other examples with known provenance or manufacturing dates.
From what has been said so far, can I understand that this glass could possibly be pre-1745, but might also be early 1800s?
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I saw this in a museum yesterday - English cordial glass made about 1710, and I thought the foot looked very similar to the foot of my glass.
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Hi ,
Firstly ,welcome to the forum ,
I have read through this thread with interest and see that most of what I can say has already been said , just to add my two pence worth though I think your glass is English and lead glass , the ridge you can feel on the bowl rim is quite normal and is down to the fire polishing giving it a more rounded and softer feel, a folded foot is no indication of age I am afraid, glasses with folded feet can be 500 years old or 5 days old,these types of glasses are fairly common and I would suspect yours dates anywhere from 1780 to 1820 give or take a little either way for the reasons already given by others, what were they used for ? , anything you like I say , there is very little documented evidence of glasses being produced for specific drinks like Gin and Port until the later 19th century and most of the attributions given today are guess work except for some like ale and beer glasses and cordial glasses etc , small glasses like these would I think have been used for stronger spirits, so yes Gin Whisky Port etc are all possible candidates.
Being inexpensive these little glasses are a great area for collecting without laying out fortunes and you can enjoy your favourite tipple from a glass getting on for 200 plus years old .
cheers ,
Peter
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Peter - Thank you for the clarifications and explanation.
I am new to glass collecting, and what I see is that glasses like this one can be readily found for under 5 Pounds.
Like you, my enjoyment is in taking a drink from a 200 year old glass.
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Hi
" Like you, my enjoyment is in taking a drink from a 200 year old glass."
I think you will find we are in the minority here,every glass that comes to live with me has to be road tested, that's my excuse anyway !!
cheers ,
Peter