Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: essi on August 27, 2016, 10:49:58 PM
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In the past year I have seen two other examples of this pattern of engraving, one was on a very old looking spirit decanter and one on a bucket shaped vase. Does anybody know the origin of this glass or the engraving ?
Any help appreciated.
Tim
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I think it might be possible that these are not antique.
It might be possible that it is very much more recent.
There has been another post on here about a similar piece. I will try and find it.
m
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Thanks M, sometimes your gut feeling tells you that something is not quite right. saying that, the pieces I have seen have been very nice items of glass.
Tim
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I've seen a few of these designs. I'm sure they're "reproductions". In a vintage style but don't think there's any original they are copying - just a look and feel. Tim, did you buy that? May I ask where and how it was described?
This is the latest one I see on ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122073379218?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
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this is the previous thread about these items http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,62443.msg350664.html#msg350664
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Thanks for update Julie, I did buy the tankard for not a lot of money at a small collectors fair in Oxfordshire. It was just described as continental engraved tankard.
The bucket vase I saw in a fine glass shop just off the portabella road in London. I did not speak to the owner about this vase at the time.
The decanter I saw was at an antiques fair in Oxfordshire. My eye was taken to it because it looked like a pale amber Stromberg decanter of the type I collect. This was a thick walled item . The dealer had no background on the item. The base wear looked convincing !.
This glass collecting lark is not easy.
Tim
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Not sure what this brings to the debate about this type of glass but I have just shone my u v light into my tankard and it came up with quite a strong yellowish green response. Do modern glass makers still use uranium in there mix?. I wonder if all the different types of glass that have been highlighted on the GMB are uranium glass?
Tim
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Sounds more likely that it's manganese in the mix, that's a yellowish green glow, and it is still found in glass from China, though less common in modern glass from elsewhere
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This one acknowledges it's a reproduction - from 1920's Belgium.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ETCHED-GLASS-DECANTER-IN-THE-ANTIQUE-VENETIAN-STYLE-/311705935179?hash=item48931f1d4b:g:Rm4AAOSwLF1X4AYg
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I doubt these are that old. I saw a dessert set from this range in a charity shop today
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thanks for the new input. there appears to be a lot of this type of glass out there. you might think somebody would know about the importation
and wholesaling of this glass.
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Having just acquired another of these pieces of glass I think we might be a bit nearer to solving the mystery. ???
I acquired my first bubble vase with the ship engraving a while ago; I read all the related threads and googled everything that I could think of, but nothing I could find resembled my piece of glass which I was convinced was antique. I have owned many Victorian “end of the day” bubble weights and this vase has the same look, feel, colour and ware.
I acquired the second vase/tumbler a couple of weeks ago and although they look very similar, they are worlds apart. The second one like essi’s jug appears to be a mid century copy of the first. The first vase is heavy with a thick uneven rim and the engraving, although still naive, is much finer quality. The second vase/tumbler is more of a lime green in colour, is much lighter in weight with finer bubbles and has a flat moulded base with no pontil mark.
Penny
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hmmm - Hi Penny - forgive my usual scepticism, but what is it that we are nearer to solving the mystery of - and when you say mid century, which century are we speaking of? I would have suspected that the origin of these 'galleon' pieces was either the far east or Turkey/Egypt.
I hate to be pessimistic, but had thought this stylized 'galleon' wheel engraving had been laid to rest - in the sense that they were considered to be recent and not antique.
From my own experience of looking at C18 and C19 tumblers, there seems to be a misunderstanding by the copyists that old equates to very poor quality and vast amounts of bubbles. If you can view some pieces from that period you will see that the glass is generally good quality and isn't adorned with bubbles in the fashion shown in these examples. It's possible that the green tint is the result of insufficient manganese to de-colourize the glass - and again might be a makers view that old glass was always this colour, though I do accept some early pieces were a greenish hue. When you speak of Victorian bubble weights, do you mean those greenish coloured 'dumps' - some of the cast iron moulds used to make metal doorstops, were on occasion used for a glass example, and those too I believe were a greenish tint.
If you get the chance do have a look at the catalogue from Delomosne & Son, from 2008, which was a loan exhibition of Rare English Tumblers 1750 - 1830, which shows that quality was usually very high. I appreciate that tavern and pub glasses will be of a lower grade and not match that standard, but my honest opinion is that those showing here are recent and not antique - I was tempted to say copies, but I'm doubtful that these current pieces are copying anything that is genuinely antique.
I'm always keen to learn from others - if you have the time are you able to say why you were convinced your first example was antique. :)
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Hi Paul,
Sorry if I wasn’t very clear, the taller vase which I believe to be mid to late 19th century is way too large and heavy to be a tumbler. It reminds me of the dump weights that were produced in bottle factories at the end of the day when workers expressed their artistic talents with the left over molten glass. As a keen collector of Whitefriars / James Powell & Sons I am well aware that the standard of glass making in certain factories during the 19th century was second to none.
Is there any reason why the workers at the bottle factories were limited to paperweights and doorstops...why not vases?
As for the smaller tumbler which is very similar to essi’s jug, I thought the conclusion was that these were probably tourist pieces from around the 1950’s-1960’s, possibly made in Portugal and may be copies of an earlier original...could the taller vase be that original???
Penny
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Penny, there wasn't really an end of the day with left over molten glass, as it takes days to bring a furnace up to temperature and to cool down, so glass was made continuously often on shift systems See our topic discussing this here https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,2327.0.html
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Thank you Anne, It is often reffered to in books as "end of the day" glass so it does get a bit confusing. Perhaps it should be "end of the shift" glass or "perks of the job" glass. ;D
Penny
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Hi Penny - sorry, not quite sure why I'd run away with the idea that both of yours were tumblers - just goes to show the usefulness of providing sizes, and me reading more carefully :)
I'm with you for any new suggestion you might care to make regarding our knowledge of glass types from any period in history - however, your suggestion in this instance re the sailing ship on the larger vase piece, whilst not impossible, lacks any known provenance/attribution which might provide credibility.
As a purely personal opinion, to my eyes the bubbles on that piece are so prolific that they cancel out the attractiveness - or otherwise - of the wheel engraving.
In order for you to set up a new classification and give credibility to the vase/sailing ship, you will need to justify your claim with some genuine known late C19 example on which to base your assertion - otherwise you will fail - would love you to be correct, but I think the weight of opinion here and the lack of historic comparison, means you have fallen at the first hurdle.
This is one of those instances where there is so much against this being 'right', that it's very wrong. :)
As to why workers at bottle factories appear to have been limited to paperweights and doorstops (you will know better than me I expect, but were the dumps made as p/weights? - I'm really not sure).
But, the answer to this question may well be that the skills and knowledge for bottle making fall short of the knowledge and equipment necessary to make a vase or tumbler - both of which, if we look at your examples, appear not to be mould made which might have been the result in the bottle factory - but appear to be the shape and looks of free blown i.e. pontil scars etc. etc., and this would not have been a practical proposition in a factory using moulds for bottles - IMHO. See also comments just posted by Anne (Mod.)
As for the smaller piece, you probably know more than me about such things, and your suggestion of Portugal may well be better informed than my far east or Turkey/Egypt …………. as for the date, I'd be inclined to suggest more recent even than you suggest.
P.S. Looking at the books it seems that all those classed as 'dumps' were in fact intended to be used as doorstops.
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Adding a little to Anne's comments ...…………..
expressions such as straw marks, end of day glass and slag glass are much used by sellers, though it's sometimes said that in the very early days of pressed glass - 1840s - the batch was less refined and did include some slag from the pot/furnace. Unfortunately, most multi-coloured pressed Victorian glass is now described as 'slag' regardless of the fact that it's usually high quality - mostly the marbled colours - the word has other colloquial meanings, unrelated to glass.
As a much respected author on pressed glass Ray Slack omits the term 'end of day' from his index - he did say to me once that he was aware who had used the expression originally, but wouldn't tell me who. Interestingly, he provides the following explanation in the Glossary to his book:
""SLAG GLASS: Specifically bottle glass. So named because of the addition of blast furnace slag to the batch for cheapness. The word 'slag' is often erroneously used when referring to the opaque coloured glass known as Vitro-Porcelain.""
In the text of his book (page 43), and when discussing production from Sowerby's Ellison Glass Works, Slack adds more information as to the historic use of the word Slag:
""In the early years of opaque glass, Sowerby's advertised, along with the more popular colours such as Opal, Turquoise and Malachite, a glass called 'slag'. This was a type of glass that was black by reflected light, and either a bottle-green or dark purple colour by transmitted light. As far as is ascertainable this was the only coloured glass that was termed 'slag glass'. It was a short-lived product and was superseded by a dense black opaque glass which was advertised throughout the 1880s as Jet.""
most C19 black glass wasn't - it shows deep purple in transmitted light as Slack indicates.
No idea as to how long the 'straw marks' term has been around - would probably set fire to the straw. ;)
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I am a relative newcomer to the glass obsession and have only been dealing in glass for around ten years, but in that time a lot of antique glass has passed through my hands, especially the dump weights that were produced in bottle factories, you just get a feel for certain types of glass.
As for “end of day” glass, just to prove to myself that I wasn’t completely losing my marbles, I found this reference to the Kilner bottle factories on page 177 of Paul Hollister Jr’s book “The Encyclopaedia of Glass Paperweights,” the evidence comes straight from “the horse’s mouth” so to speak:
“Mr. C. A. Kilner is a great-grandson of the founder John Kilner and a collector of Kilner weights. Thanks to him we are able to piece together a comprehensive picture of paperweight-making at the Kilner works. Mr Kilner says they were made from what the people of the region called “dumps,” that is molten glass left at the end of the day which would otherwise have been dumped out. About one in twelve is labelled on the bottom, which provides remarkable documentation...”
He goes on to describe how most of them were probably made as friggers for self amusement or gifts in their spare time and contained elongated bubbles, flowerpots or sulphides. Apparently they were so numerous in Yorkshire that they were used to line garden paths...that would certainly explain the appalling condition of some of them! ::)
I have no hard based evidence to back up my theory other than my vase bears all the hallmarks of antique glass, impurities, wear etc. Judging by the variety of these “dump” weights and the skill involved in making them, I see no reason why a vase would be beyond their capabilities. One thing I do know for sure is that my vase and tumbler are as different as chalk and cheese and certainly not made at the same time or by the same time manufacturer. I am with you on the engraving Paul, it is such a shame that it is lost amongst all the bubbles.
As for ‘slag’ glass, I agree that it is a terrible term and much prefer malachite glass, although this does infer that it might all be green. ;D
The two large dumps are doorstops weighing in at a hefty 2 kilos.
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...Thank you for the info on the jet glass Paul, I always wondered why some of it had a purple hue. As for 'straw' marks, I just assumed they were so-called because they look like straw. ;D
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thanks Penny - for the time being then we shall defer to your evidence and knowledge :) - though I had the impression that sulphides required a more skilled approach - those I see in books appear to be far removed from basic doorstop material, and look to need some artistic skill to provide the modelling work for the cameo aspect. So unsure as to whether such pieces should be included with the other friggers you mention.
I'm on the train to Yorkshire already - to find these gardens adorned with 'numerous' bottle-green dumps along the pathways. I can remember visiting my paternal grandparents in the mid 1950s and seeing that my grandfather had done something similar by upturning dark green wine bottles - those with kicks in the bottoms - to create borders along his garden paths - there must have been scores of them.
Coming back to your thoughts as to the bottle factory workers having the potential to make pieces such as your two examples ……… can only repeat my thoughts that since bottle factories only had the ability to make glass in moulds, then free blown items as your vase and tumbler would have been impossible, since such pieces required blowing irons and pontil rods, plus the skill to use such items. But of course I'm giving an opinion only and who knows what might have happened in the depths of the C19, though I'm struggling to see 'chairs' and the skills for free blown glass in a Kilner jar factory.
Am going to disagree with you Penny regarding the description of 'malachite' to describe the multi-coloured glass which is now often termed slag glass. This is a perennial gripe of mine though I doubt the world will listen to my reasoning, which is ………… you're correct that since malachite is green, then the term should be used to described green marbled glass only, and not the other multitude of mixed colours.
I would like to see a universal agreement to call all of these colours 'marbled', since that is the appearance they give - not blackberries and cream for example.
The problem with descriptions is one of repetition ………… someone somewhere picks up on a neat sounding piece of terminology, bandies it around and before you can say malachite, it sticks, and everyone is using the word and so it travels on unhindered - whether it's correct or not.
Certainly wouldn't describe you as a relative newcomer - ten years is a goodly length of time and the volume of glass you've seen must have given a wealth of knowledge - must remember to ask you opinion on my odd W/Fs finds. :)
As for straw marks, I can only imagine that glass items (possibly bottle related pieces) from poor quality moulds, would show surface lines and striations etc. that someone has interpreted as looking like an indentation from a length of straw - again, it's a fanciful expression - you can imagine bedraggled souls working 12 hour shifts in smoky, poorly lit cones - most of then suffering from pulmonary diseases from the open furnaces. In the half light they spend their days bent double packing glass into wooden crates and stuffing straw around the glass to help avoid breakages.