Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: oldman on September 22, 2016, 12:38:05 PM
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Hi
1st timer lol
Ive got a very unusual vase and would like help identifying it.
Interesting bubble inclusions which radiate out into a geometric pattern with an enamel dragon and gilded floral decoration.
Looks Late Victorian to me? and possibly French?
Its unsigned (it just feels special)??
The condition is not the best but i like it and wondered who might have made it.
Thanks in advance D
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hello and welcome to the GMB :)
That is a lovely vase. The technique is, I think, called airtrap.
Could you do some photos against a plain white background please so the detail can be seen and the colours of the enamel decoration?
If you resize them to 400 x 600 pixels that should enable them to blow up so the detail can be seen once they are uploaded.
Many thanks
m
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Hi and thank you
Sorry for late reply, just got back to my pc
Hope you can help.
I have uploaded some clearer photos. Just upgraded to windows 10 and not finding it easy.
size is approx 9.25 inches
Ground pontil. The eyes are (one missing) red glass balls.
The central dragon i would guess was silver (faded) with gold gilt
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Der sorry......plain white background
I dont know how to edit my earlier post so here goes again
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Harrach? possibly?
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sorry for the delay.
It has a polished pontil mark and a firepolished rim.I'm not totally convinced that it is Bohemian (but the enamelling is a bit strange - should be gilded I think, but reminds me a bit of Bohemian enamelling).
I don't thinkairtrap is a French style (open to correction)
I'm thinking it could be English. The dragon is very well done, the rim and polished pontil mark and the airtrap fit. I was wondering Thomas Webb to be honest, but there is such a paucity of information that it is nearly impossible to get a definite identification.
The body of the dragon may be pewter- if it were silver it would have gone black I think.
The yellow enamel bits would have been gilded. Those things do fit with Harrach but I think English is still on the cards.
You may just have to hang on in there and something might come up at some point.
How much does it weigh as a matter of interest? Just curious.
Can we have one more picture of a close up of a section of enamelling?
And one of the whole base showing the pontil mark as it might be possible to make a judgement on how large the pontil mark is.
I'm still leaning to English.
m
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Alisa has this pair as Harrach Oxblood - they have dragons on and a polished pontil mark and firepolished rim.
http://www.thegildedcurio.com/item-Harrach-71.html
I don't think the enamelling is the same though.
Harrach did do airtrap and there are two criss cross examples in the Harrach book but not the same type of glass as yours.
Having looked at the Harrach book there is something about the neck and gilded rim on your vase that reminds me a lot of the feet on some of their vases from the late 1880s early 1890s.
Having said all that, the colour doesn't make me think Harrach and Thomas Webb did do some similar 'fantasy' pieces.
There are dragons on some French piece (Gibb? was the enameller I think iirc from memory) but French would not be my first thought because the enamelling is different to those (I think they were flat gilded onto the glass?) and because of the airtrap design.
m
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ooh I think I've found it (would need confirmation though)
On page 297 of Harrach From Neuwelt to the Whole World
Bottom left hand picture (very small, hand-drawn and coloured picture)
There is a design of a vase that looks faaairrly similar to yours in shape (neck taller and slimmer and foot looks wider than yours) appears to be in clear glass with a green coloured neck, dragon and design on it so doesn't appear to show it as airtrap.
However, the dragon is similar and the design of the spaced out foliage is remarkably similar. I think it's a match to yours but will need to be checked out.
It says:
'Design for vase with painted decoration (dec no. F 3116) with the motif of a Chinese dragon, probably Josef Petricek, c. 1890 (FA)'
m
'Design for a vase
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Thank you for your replies.
what a helpful bunch... Cheers
Theres a butterfly on the other side which might help?
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yes your link looks very similar in style
Also the eyes on dragon are almost identical
Defo starting to think Bohemian Harrach
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Did you see my reply earlier?
I'm sure it's right - very small pic in the book but there are definite markers on the dragon and the design of the foliage is remarkably similar.
btw the eyes on the dragon - I'm not sure they would be a marker for purely Bohemian. I think it's possible English makers used these as well. But there are other markers for the dragon i.e the tail, the shape of the head and snout etc that are remarkably like the ones in the book. It's just a very small picture and so difficult to see detail.
However, I'm pretty sure it's right. And Harrach used a butterfly as well.
I would say I'm 100% confident looking at the dragon and foliage.
And unless someone copied their dragon yours is pretty much the same as in the book including the position of the feet. Yours is just shorter in the body than the pattern design suggest (pattern suggests it would curl more around the vase).
Also Harrach used the dark green as well.
m
ooh I think I've found it (would need confirmation though)
On page 297 of Harrach From Neuwelt to the Whole World
Bottom left hand picture (very small, hand-drawn and coloured picture)
There is a design of a vase that looks faaairrly similar to yours in shape (neck taller and slimmer and foot looks wider than yours) appears to be in clear glass with a green coloured neck, dragon and design on it so doesn't appear to show it as airtrap.
However, the dragon is similar and the design of the spaced out foliage is remarkably similar. I think it's a match to yours but will need to be checked out.
It says:
'Design for vase with painted decoration (dec no. F 3116) with the motif of a Chinese dragon, probably Josef Petricek, c. 1890 (FA)'
m
'Design for a vase
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I shall order a copy of the book
Most appreciated
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I'm not disagreeing with the others, but my beginner's thoughts wonder whether another line of potential investigation could be Loetz? There's an air-diamond decor listed here called Karoatlas (assuming it's still a valid attribution?):
http://www.loetz.com/identifying-loetz-glass/early-loetz
See picture 7.18 for a clear green example.
Gold enamelling was fairly common on early Loetz, and the polished pontil would fit too. I haven't managed to find a dragon, but there are a lot of gold enamelled oriental forms and foliate scrollwork. That said, they were common themes from most manufacturers of that era ;)
That said, I am a beginner. The others are experts. YMMV ;)
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Fantastic find :)
Interesting comparisons to be made between what I have found in the Harrach book and this detailed and informative Loetz article then:
1) In the Loetz description made at point 7.05
'The vases 7.06-08,7.10-17 are examples of early Loetz 'Karoatlas' glass introduced in 1885 [Neuwirth] page 245: Sprechsaal 1889 S.77 A.Schmidt: 'Von der Kunstgewerbeausstellung in Muenchen 1888', with a décor made by air inclusions in the shape of diamonds similarly to the Webb and Harrach 'Mother of Pearl' décor. Vase 7.06, similar in colour to 2.01-04, has the remains of a Dek number and the unique shape of 7.07 resembles PN=85/3684 (1899).'
the author describes the Loetz as 'Karoatlas' glass and remarks with regard the diamond air decor as a comparison to other makers '...similarly to the Webb and Harrach 'Mother of Pearl' décor'.
Yet in the Harrach book page 266, fig 306, there is a diamond airtrap yellow over white vase with coralene decoration described thus:
'Vase
form: 1887, prod no.1143/9
execution: Karoatlas
h 11.5 cm
Museum of Glass, Harrachov, inv. no 4139
White opal glass with colourless overlay, with an optical checked pattern, flashed with colourless glass and shaded to topaz yellow at the top, mould blown. Raised tiny twigs decoration of applied colourless beads. Rim matte gilded.
A unique combination of flashed optical decoration with an applied bead pattern. This vase, which was part of the original company sample room, is an example of an almost experimental approach to finding new decorative techniques and an effort to discover new types of decoration.'
So I'm not sure why the author says the Loetz version is 'Karoatlas' but then compares it to the Harrach versions calling them 'Mother of Pearl' decor when the Harrach book calls them Karoatlas and gives a production number.
2) Loetz did use a dark green which can been seen on other examples on that page. I'm not sure if it is a direct match for the OP's vase green. I have not been able to find a Harrach in that dark grey green yet.( Caveat - Harrach were a huge glassworks that produced enormous amounts of glass and colours so at the moment I would think the colour would not be a deal breaker if an example could not be found?)
3) The design of the dragon and foliage in the Harrach book page 297 is remarkably similar to the OP's vase. But there are differences. However the similarities in the dragon are so remarkable, and the layout of the foliage decoration around the vase also, that I think it is entirely possible it was taken from that design...
... and actually, in the text of the vase plate 346 (an engraved vase with a dragon on), which is shown in photograph above the watercolour design for the enamelled vase similar to the OP's, it has the following remark in the body of text:
'The dragon figure rendered in high relief engraving compositionally replaces the motif of a dragon with a scaled body documented in several designs for painted vases , which can be attributed with some certainty to Josef Petricek. The original template was probably a dragon from a Chinese silk pattern from the period of the Qing dynasty, published in RACINET 1872, II Livraison, tab. XIII.'
So from that paragraph it could be deduced that there were a number of vases with enamelled dragons, therefore the fact that the design of OP's vase is not a direct match but has remarkable similarities would also not be a deal breaker.
It would be good to match the colour and the shape of the vase to a Harrach piece as a final confirmation or not.
If I have time I'll have a look around.
m
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Flying free
Thank you for your hard work
I'm not sure if your allowed to reproduce an image from a book on a BB? If not?
could you send me a photo from the Harrach book?? to darrenroad AT live DOT co DOT uk
All the best
[Mod: email address modified to thwart spam harvesters. Best not to post proper email addresses in posts - instead make sure your Profile is set to "Allow users to email me" and then ask folk to use the email icon below your usrename.]
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I cannot photograph the watercolour design for copyright reasons, but if you send some good photographs including clear side on profile picture (this is important as it shows the outline shape of the vase not distorted by close up photographs etc), and against a white background so the detail of the vase can be seen, to Harrach, then they may be able to give you a confirmation and design /production number for your vase.
If they do, it would be much appreciated if you posted that here as a closure for this topic.
Many thanks
m
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Good idea! I didnt even know they were still in production
Email sent
If i get a reply i will let you know
D
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Hi oldman,
Please see the "Mod" note I have added to your Reply #14 above.
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OK
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m, it'll be interesting to see what Harrach say!
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yes, it may come up something else yet :)
That would be interesting, and make for interesting discussion, given the pattern design in the Harrach book.
m
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Did Harrach respond re the vase yet please OP?
m
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I wonder if this is the same vase?
https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/262146-harrach-karoatlas?in=441-activity
:)