Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: flying free on October 07, 2016, 12:12:26 PM
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On the thread on Letter-weights here
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,62881.msg352975.html#msg352975
I posted about a large paperweight with a knop handle that I own:
I have one (I 'think'?)
I don't know what it's made of as I've never been able to work it out. It's some form of stone enamelled over possibly, it's extremely heavy almost as though it's iron but I don't think it is. Possibly French but I think at least Victorian in era - reminds me of something a governmental department office might use.
I have just come across a picture of a lump of broken obsidian on page 7 of the book Baguiers et Verre a Boire, Leon Darnis.
It has a very shiny black exterior and then a grainy clay like lump in it ... just like the texture that can been on the close up of the tiny nick on my paperweight!
So ... presumably obsidian is heavy, as my paperweight it, and presumably my paperweight could have been fashioned and polished out of a largish piece of obsidian?
There are some large spheres of Obsidian for sale here -
http://www.mineralminers.com/html/obssphs.stm
perhaps this was something popular to carve in the Victorian era? Is that possible?
See here for an large example of Obsidian glass rock
http://geology.com/rocks/obsidian.shtml
and this is what the base on a recently ? carved piece of obsidian looks like - I think my weight is Obsidian glass.
http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/cinco-japon/item/objeto02/?s-id=borderless_recommend_item_en
A very exciting possibility :)
ok, so now I'm pretty sure this is Obsidian glass. So what country was it made in? I believe it dates probably 1870s or so based on a similar design shape with a label which I've discussed on the other thread.
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Obsidian has a concoidal fracture, similar to glass, so the photo you have of the fracture has that scooped-out look, so yes it probably is obsidian. In the U.K. Obsidian occurs in very few places, but is found on Arran on the Scottish west coast. They used to make curling stones from microgranite also found on Arran so it is possible that it was made there.The skills and equipment required for Polishing microgranite to a glass finish would make polishing obsidian to a smooth sphere easy. One line of research??
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Thank you very much for your additional information. I will go and explore that route and see what transpires.
m
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Interesting piece.
My feeling is that this made out of black glazed earthenware or stoneware not unlike similar antique doorknobs or insulator caps. If I'm interpreting the first image properly you can see where the glaze breaks at the outer circumference where the black meets the wood. When glaze is fired it thins over sharp corners and appears lighter.
Eric
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Hi :)
I'm not quite sure what you mean? There is no wood on this piece.
It's all glass/or something but not wood.
The base is made to look like that (if it were glass it would be chalcedony type glass- if it's Obsidian then that is what it can look like from the few pictures I've been able to find).
The base is incredibly incredibly smooth to touch even though it might not look like it in the photo - really smooth like touching silk and very cold.
Where do you see the 'glaze' breaking up in the first picture please? Do you mean in the bit I've photographed of the nick? That is a massively enlarged photo taken through a strong magnifying glass as well as camera lens. It's tiny but I've enlarged it to try and see any detail. There are no sharp corners or edges on the weight at all despite what the photos might look like. I think you might mean where the curved outer meets the base? that is smooth as smooth can be and still curved not a sharp edge at all. It's extremely hard to explain with photos rather than holding the piece.
Sorry for the questions and repeating myself, but at the moment I can't see that it can be pottery glazed... and I've tried really hard as I thought it might be. I'm open to any help and will look up the doorknobs though I know exactly the ones you mean as we have the white version originals on our sitting room doors. It's remarkably heavy.
I am thinking how would you find a piece of Obsidian that is completely black but then has the striped base?
I suppose it could have looked something like this chunk (first one on link site) before cutting?
http://www.sandatlas.org/volcanic-glass/
I'll do some more searching of 'chunks' to see if that might be possible. Although in the 1851 exhibition it mentioned in the catalogue that 7 tons was brought in for polishing, from Palermo
https://archive.org/stream/officialdescrip00goog#page/n338/mode/2up/search/obsidian
I should think that from 7 tons it might be easy to get a section that fitted the bill?
edited - oh did you mean the first picture in the other thread? I'll find that photo and link it here as well.
I can see what you mean now looking at that photo (see below)
Thanks for your help and suggestions :)
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This is the best picture I could get of a carved piece of obsidian where there is polished black but the underneath of the polished surface area is striated or mottled and not polished black finish.
http://picclick.ca/Obsidian-Onyx-Stone-Bust-Figure-Pre-Columbian-Antique-Sculpture-Maya-142088102726.html#&gid=1&pid=2
I think it shows that where the polished black meets the striated/mottled/unpolished? area it has the same kind of 'join' where the edge appears to break up as I think was meant about a glaze edge.
I've taken some photos of the Victorian doorknob glazed (white). I'll upload them to here to show. Fortunately the door knob is damaged right were the glaze ends on the ceramic, but there are no curved 'bowls' of damage showing on any of the damage, as there is on the black polished part of the nick on the paperweight.
m
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pics of antique doorknob for comparison to the paperweight chip:
I'm not sure about this at all. I don't see how, with the striated base as it is, that it can be pottery really.
I think it has been ground polished on a wheel as the base shows I think (?) with the circular marking - any thoughts on this?
But that doesn't hide the linear striations on mine.
I can't see a similar chip on the doorknob (glazed ceramic) as the one on the paperweight but I can see similar chips on my dinner plates! because presumably glaze is glass so will chip in that curved bowl shaped way.
I look at the top and think it must be either ceramic or hyalith glass
I look at the base and think it must be obsidian as it doesn't look like either hyalith, ceramic or black glass.
I look at the edge of the shiny black area and wonder is it polished obsidian or is it ceramic glazed?
It's just weird. If it's ceramic glazed would it fit with an 1850-70 date where the pieces I've found for comparison are a c.1850 Clichy glass piece?
It's quite 'rare' - I have found one other example also with gilded bands.
There are two other examples in the same shape that I have found with labels still on, and appear to point to c.1870.
However they also both appear to be ceramic/pottery pieces glazed with a malachite design and colour glaze.
The one I have found that is similar to mine in black, is very difficult to see what the base really looks like because of the way the photograph has been taken.
Very grateful for any thoughts and thanks for looking.
m
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sorry here are the pictures
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a better link to some obsidian pieces
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian
here some plates and bowls
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian#/media/File:ObsidianWareLopezMAPHidalgo2.JPG
on the edge of the bowls if you enlarge the pictures you can see where the polished underneath meets the unpolished top surface I think?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/ObsidianWareLopezMAPHidalgo2.JPG
The images of where the polished 'outer' surface meets the very edge of the unpolished inner surface or 'food' surface don't look any different in effect to a glazed piece of pottery to me.
In fact they look just like the edge where the polished upper surface of my paperweight meets the bottom flat striated surface. :-\
Anyone else think the same?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Takalik_Abaj_obsidian_1.jpg
These are pieces of what they call 'goldsheen' obsidian - they appear to have the browny striations especially this one
http://www.spiritrockshop.com/images/_00971.JPG
- could it be this?
http://www.spiritrockshop.com/Obsidian_Gold_Sheen.html
As an aside, I weighed the weight against a piece of granite I own of a similar size but excluding the knop. The weight is proportionately more in weight than the granite piece as I would have expected.
I've no idea if this adds anything to the debate or of the density of granite and volcanic glass obsidian but they were in proportion to what I had roughly calculated between the two.
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There are two malachite design weights with labels on
One has a label for Perry & co with addresses visible.
They were still in Red Lion Square and 3 Cheap side which is on the label, in 1876 but moved to Holborn viaduct in 1877.
http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Perry_and_Co
However it says that by 1876 they had become Perry & Co Ltd
See advert top right on that page
see Malachite (ceramic?) paperweight with Perry and Co label on here:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/190803927866?clk_rvr_id=1106144163735&rmvSB=true
So whatever my black one is made of, it possible it probably dates to around 1876 or earlier given the label on this one is Perry & Co.
The company started as James Perry & Co and became Perry & co sometime after 1847 - they were listed as Perry & co in the Great Exhibition Catalogue in 1851.
This link gives more information on Perry & Co with regard to how they sold items in their catalogues including things like Needle cases and fancy goods. They do list particular items on this page but no reference to paperweights.
http://www.coulthart.com/avery/company-pages/perry-history.html
In 1874 it appears they were listing paperweights in their price guide (cannot access the whole thing)
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MTMGAAAAQAAJ&dq=perry+%26+co&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=paperweight
m
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My comments about dating assume of course, that the paperweights were from a similar era, given that the two of the three malachite examples I've seen have labels which would date them possibly to around the era of 1870'ish and that two of them were being sold together, a malachite and black one with gilded bands. That is an assumption.
The green malachite versions are sold as being made of pottery.
As is this brown marbled version here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-ENAMELED-DESK-PAPERWEIGHT-PERRY-Co-PEN-COMPANY-C-1874-/161863342313
I honestly do not think mine is pottery.
Neither mine, nor Ross's nor the black example being sold by the same seller as the un-labelled malachite example, are labelled, but two of them have an enamelled green number 161 on the base.
Enamelled numbers in coral red enamel have been seen on old glass bottles dating to 19th century and which came from All Souls College Oxford.
m
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Heres are a couple other example that might help you:
http://www.xupes.com/Antiques-Fine-Art/Product-Details/2972/POTTERY-ENAMELLED-PAPERWEIGHT/Rare-Antique-Pottery-Black-Enamelled-Paperweight-Early-19th-C.html
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Black-Gilt-Finial-Button-Knob-Squat-Carved-Stone-Paperweight-/351872246536?hash=item51ed386308:g:fiUAAOSwAuZX6enh#viTabs_0
It is still my opinion that these are stoneware. The glaze has been wiped from the base (prior to firing) showing the reddish hue of the clay. The first example illustrates this well. If you look at the image of the base you can see the wipe marks where the glaze wasn't fully cleaned off and the wear is heavier on the raised portion of the foot showing the red clay more clearly.
Eric
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yup I can see exactly what you mean. And the top one (sold by Xupes) is one I have referenced previously on this thread or on the other thread from Ross.
I can only think that mine is not pottery and must be different??
That second one you referenced also has the number 161 on it in green doesn't it? (says it is just over 3 1/2"diameter 2" height to top of knop)
I wonder where they are from?
Mine has nothing enamelled on it and has no evidence of anything. And has a very neat striped base under what appears to be a dark glaze or is indeed glass. Mine is also bigger than either of the two in those links at over 4 1/8" diameter and about 2 1/4" to top of knop.
I'm thinking I'm going to have to break mine to see what it's made from - I can't stand the suspense. I'll be a bit miffed if it's glass but hey ho.
Just adding (I know this addition is not glass, but just in case, and this one has a cream glazed base which might be what the malachite versions of these has) this map one was from James Macintyre & Co
https://www.georgeglazer.com/maps/asia/centralafrica.html
James Macintyre did make agate like or marbelised(?) glazed pieces,but they probably all did at some point depending on when it was 'fashionable'.
m
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ink well and stand in black something (pottery but says glass?) numbered on the base in a pale green enamel looks like '850'
http://www.french-treasures.net/Glassware_184/Elegant-Inkwell-Black-Glass-Gold-Enameled-1890_6040.html
'Elegant inkwell in black glass and gold enameled with bronze hinge made during the 1890's. Perfect condition. It's numbered on the bottom. 5 5/8" by side 4 7/8" high.'
No idea if it is glass or not - looks to me as though it has three pin marks on the base.
m
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I've bought one like this
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Black-Gilt-Finial-Button-Knob-Squat-Carved-Stone-Paperweight-/351872246536?hash=item51ed386308:g:fiUAAOSwAuZX6enh#viTabs_0
That also has the enamelled number 161 on the base.
My original piece is made much more finely made than the one I've just bought.
The new one is very matt on the base, slightly concave, shows a black swirl pattern over what appears to indeed be a red pottery of some sort, and can be scratched fairly easily.
I can only assume that my old one was just made somewhere else, much better refined and also has some kind of glaze over the base of it which make it feel slightly sheeny, very smooth and very glassy in texture and cannot be scratched easily. The base of the original is also completely flat, not concave at all.
I don't need to break the new one to believe it is pottery of some sort.
I will have to accept that the original is also pottery of some sort.
The new one would not work as a slick-stone or sleek-stone because of the concave base. The old one would because it is extremely flat and heavy on the base, but I think the design of it and the new one, would be extremely difficult to use having tried it on some silk.
I am not convinced that the black glass piece in the Corning with a short knop is a linen smoother.
I think it might be a paperweight?
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/linen-smoother
and
I'm not convinced this is a linen smoother either - it would be very hard to use with such a short knop and the way the knop is applied with a slim 'attachment' of glass to the base,makes me think it was applied as a knop, not as as taller handle which has broken off?
http://oldsouthjerseyglass.com/product_details/NTA=
But that's just my opinion.
This shows one with a taller handle where you can see the strength of the attachment of the handle
http://www.hecklerauction.com/auctions/98/view/?lot=95&view=2
http://www.hecklerauction.com/auctions/98/view/?lot=95
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The second item that you say might not be a linen smoother very probably has a broken (originally multi-lobed) handle that has been flat polished to the top to remove dangerous projections.
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That is possible and I did consider that. However I also looked at the way the knop was attached to the actual body of the piece and it is completely different to the few others I've been able to find. They all have the handle attached in a very sturdy way to the body with some of the glass from the body appearing to be drawn up to surround the handle to make it more sturday. This one looks as though the knop is slimmer at the point it attaches to the body - as though it was created as a knop rather than a tall sturdy handle which one would be using to push the slickstone with.
The photos on both are not good profile photos so it is of course possible that I am completely wrong -
This is one which doesn't have the sturdy attachment at the base of the join. Different shape to the body as it is curved as are others I've found, whereas that South Jersey one was round and flat to the base and sides and appeared to have a slim attachment to the knop.
http://www.hecklerauction.com/auctions/99/view/?lot=97&view=2
Also people probably know this but I didn't, I came across a number of 'glass muller' pieces which are used for grinding pigments.
Very interesting to see their shape.
I mention this because I've bought an antique black glass slick-stone or sleek-stone with handle. It's not arrived yet so I can't look at it properly as terrible photos of it - I came across these glass mullers whilst researching it as well as the flat paperweight shape of this thread - one to look at
http://intaglioprintmaker.com/shop/glass-muller-10cm
and another one here
http://www.art-boards.com/Large%20Sized%20Glass%20Mullers..htm
And likewise, I am unsure about whether the four shown here are actually linen smoothers:
http://www.whimsey.org/tools.htm
m
m
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This is an article from the Tate about artists using glass mullers to grind pigments.
Very interesting, as well as the glass muller they picture, which is similar in shape to my first paperweight, i.e. squat round bun with fat knop on top, and a completely flat base (describing just in case the link fails at some point)
In general if you look at other glass mullers I am not convinced that the items shown as the four glass linen smoothers on the Whimsey's page are glass linen smoothers at all. (The mullers look a bit like a pestle sometimes with thicker, shorter handle or sometimes longer similar handles/stems/hand grips to a pestle, but have a wider circular base that is flat. Linen smoothers as far as I can see, from any era, appear to have a curved bun shape, and the surface used for smoothing is completely curved up all around.)
I think it is possible those 4 shown on the Whimsey's link are all glass mullers or 3 of them are and the squat one is a paperweight perhaps?
http://www.tate.org.uk/learn/online-resources/ophelia/materials-and-techniques/ready-made-paint-and-medium
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=antique+glass+paint+muller+grind&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=638&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjBz46B5dfPAhWIDsAKHa3vBsAQ_AUIBygC
I don't know whether it is conceivable that they ever used pottery grinders to grind their pigments. But certainly the shape of my black 'paperweight' original item with the glazed very flat base, would do a good job, if it doesn't turn out to have been a paperweight (which I suspect it is).
However, the one I've just bought would not. It is not fully glazed on the base and the base is concave anyway.
Examples of non glass paint mullers below -
This article from the Market Lavington museum shows an antique wooden paint muller:
https://marketlavingtonmuseum.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/a-paint-muller/
See also these paintings to show the grinding of pigments
http://www.johannesvermeer.info/verm/house/hz-verftafel-eng.htm
This is one sold by Wooley and Wallis recently in treen with a bloodstone base apparently
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/woolley-and-wallis/catalogue-id-srwo10120/lot-afe42178-0523-4075-b096-a67c00c3e717
m
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Of the two I was questioning, specifically the pale blue one, it might have had a handle that's been cut off, but could it have had a bowl attached to it that has broken and been cut off? - I'm just curious because of the shape of the round base of it, i.e. it's not curved up at all and also because of the slender way the knop is attached to the round base.
http://www.historicalglass.com/node?page=22#
It's nothing to do with me, but I'm trying to work out which items are valid for comparison to try and date mine (if it arrives in one piece or at all), and which are perhaps not.
m