Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Malta Glass => Topic started by: Vitreo94 on March 23, 2017, 06:32:13 PM
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Hi all!
New to the forum, but having become very intrested in glass, particularly Mdina and Isle of Wight Glass over the past years I thought it prudent to join the community!
Here to add to the base of knowledge of Mdina pieces and colourways in early pieces (and to show it off slightly!) this is a piece that puzzled my father in his collection of Mdina over the years. We both believed it to be an early piece of IOW glass due to the presence of a 'broken' pontil mark indicating the very earliest of pieces produced.
However, having attended and exhibited the recent Knebworth Glass Fair February just gone we thought it would be best to ask about it further. Needless to say we got our answer from Tim Harris who immediately without hesitation told us it was a very early trial/experimental piece of Mdina made by his father Michael Harris. As many of you know Mdina didn't have their own means of cutting/ polishing until late 1969, though some pieces were polished by another company; Guillaumier, most were not. Apparently Michael's solution was to push the base where the pontil scar would be up and into the piece and the surrounding base wouldn't need to be finished as it already had a stable and flat platform on which to sit! Something I didn't know but gladly something Tim shared with me.
I've tried to do the vase justice in the photos but they are always much better in person I find!
http://imgur.com/a/iP9JF
http://imgur.com/VTHH1EX
http://imgur.com/rLQJ82r
http://imgur.com/gLiFgMr
Hope you enjoy,
Will
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Welcome to the forum Will.
This very item was discussed on this board a few years ago (there are photos of it at the end of the thread): http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,41915.30.html
The conclusion at the time was Alum Bay rather than Mdina: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,41915.msg235034.html#msg235034
John
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Hi John,
Thanks for the reply!
How intresting that it's been discussed before! I have to say though that Timothy Harris himself said instantly that it was Mdina glass, even describing why the base is like it is as discussed from the post in 2011. Even going as far as decribing the whole glass process himself, he even went as far as to say that the way the broken pontil is recessed into the vase is a method his father used on early pieces to negate the need for polishing, as they were unable to carry out the process themselves.
Whilst im always open for discussion on such things, when he tells you that its early trial Mdina with absolute certainty, thats good enough credentials for me!
Thanks for taking an intrest and posting the old topic,
Will
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I have added a link to this thread in the earlier one in the British & Irish Glass forum.
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I remain to be convinced, this is unlike any other piece of Mdina, early or otherwise, the squat shape and rim are unlike every single early globe vase from Mdina I have seen. I have one very early item with a kicked up base but it has a disc of glass covering the scar.
We have two glass makers offering an opinion, one Colin Green said "I remember making these in the late eighties, but I think yours is mid seventies". Tim Harris was a young child in 1969 (little or no glass was actually produced at Mdina in 1968), by the sound of it he jumped to a conclusion with little consideration.
John
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Except, of course, Timothy was a child at the time he believes this to have been made and the Alum Bay person who ID'd it was an adult working at Alum Glass when he believed this was made by Michael Raynor. The glass looks very clear, i.e., not bluish, for early Mdina too
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I too have a fairly large collection of very early stuff, and I've never seen this way of "finishing-off" done by MH, or on any other bit of early Mdina. I have seen and handled a lot of it over many years.
We seem to be putting a bit of a downer on your excitement. I'm very sorry about that.
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I understand what you're saying and of course credit where its due he did indeed say he remembered making them. But though Timothy would have been a child (being a child if anything sometimes means remembering more, believe me!), he along with both Jonathan and Elizabeth Harris are likely to be the only 3 people alive with as much experience at Michael's work and methods as anyone.
The fact that Tim handled the piece and looked over it, something pictures can sometimes not convey. Describing each process that was gone through as though he'd made it himself. I'm sure that the Harris family have all manner of Michael's pieces both unique and never seen before that we would perhaps reject being MH's work. Just because its not been seen before doesn't make it not MH, but that fact Tim told me this was a method he used on early early pieces means he must have? surely?
On the contrary Sue, I like a debate and about glass, well its more exciting! Until I see another one as apparently there were alot of them made I gather from Colin's quote. Which after scouring the internet I see no Alum Bay with this colourway or indeed shape anywhere. Then I will stick with Timothy's ID of very Early Mdina.
I too over the years have handled many pieces of Mdina both early trial and modern. While my father collects it I deal in it and other 20th century glass and have done so since the age of about 5 or 6, I may have even sold to your good selves at some point in time! Even to me without Timothy's verdict its Mdina, the thickness of it, the wonky top, the bubbles, the shape, the silver chloride. Whilst early pieces are associated with the infamous cobalt blue, there are plenty early pieces I've seen without it.
But as I say, until im shown another or indeed an Alum Bay piece with the same colourway and finish, Mdina is what I will stick at.
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;D Whew!
I'm very glad you enjoy the debate too and can see that opinions are just opinions.
We all have our experience to draw on, but our experiences are all unique to us and can lead to differences in opinion.
They are all worth airing, and absolutely none of them are worth falling out over.
I am very confused by Tim's saying this was a way his Dad used of finishing things off, but I'm not doubting he said it to you.
He also told me a piece I have was made at Mdina in '68, but Elizabeth confirmed it too, it's a really tiny Fish, with two sets of wing casings and several colours. The piece itself is absolutely right. But I'd be open to discovering it was really made in '69. ;D
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Oh of course, in all honesty ID's on pieces like this can really only be absolutely confirmed by one man and sadly he is no longer with us! Indeed, I have used this board many times over the years gaining snippets of information and gaining more knowledge on the subject, but I agree, difference in experience will lead to differing oppinion.
I was slightly surprised when he told me, I associated broken pontils mainly with early IOW which is what i expected him to tell me it was. Elizabeth was next to him at the time and appeared to nod in agreement with the Mdina verdict but nevertheless either way its a wonderful piece of glass and my father won't part with it!
That is a real beauty, stunning piece, very jealous! He ID'd an early trial tricorn bowl which my Dad purchased from Ron, much wider opening than the conventional ones, even some pull marks where MH was trying out something but the glass had cooled too much!Not sure of the dating of it but i'd imagine 69 or thereabouts ;D
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Elizabeth does not rate the early glass made by her husband at all. I had a very strange conversation with her as she showed me a lovely piece and complained; "Just look at all that frit, it's dreadful!" She didn't keep much of it. She was busy in the home and raising the children and paid little attention to Michael's work. That is what she told me. :)
I've got an early tricorn charger too, which I originally bought as a suspected trial seaward from IoWSG, but Marlene Bristow told me it was Mdina. She remembered it - her memory is very reliable. ;)
I'd be interested in seeing yours!
This is mine.
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Oh I know, I recall her saying to Timothy one time that his glass was much better than his Dads. Some people dont like the imperfections and honesty of early pieces and maltese glass as a whole from that period. To me they are a unique and adds another layer of beauty to them, his work to me at least is the best glass in the world.
What a fantastic piece, can't say i've seen anything like it before! Here's a few photos of the trial tricorn bowl, i couldn't seem to emphasise the size of it so there is a photo of it next to a 1974 Onion vase for scale :)
http://imgur.com/a/Yo2yk
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She was surprised at my love of the imperfections too.
It looks like you and I share some of our strong opinions about the talents of Michael Harris. ;D
I cannot be doing with pretty-pretty perfection - give me strong, abstract, wild beauty any day. :)
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The imperfections are what make them so unique, many of the characteristics of pieces were 'happy accidents' and I love that. It would seem so, he is the best, no question ;D
Whilst I appreciate a 'perfect' piece it's got a more manufactured feel to it rather than a 'whatever happens' kind of attitude that makes his pieces essentially priceless!
I did post a link to the photos of the tricorn, not sure if its working?
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I'm a bit unsure about clicking on external links, I'm afraid, and I don't know anything about the host you're using.
(All I do know is photobucket crashes everything.)
I'm ancient, so is my pc. Nothing is up to date, everything is "previously loved" and held together with sellotape and string.
Including me. ;D
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Im using Imgur, I believe it's the main image hosting site powered by Google so quite safe!
If you're still unsure I would upload individual photos or e-mail you, but they are all too big to upload as my camera is high pixel so high quality and therefore large data sizes! Im not sure how to reduce them if im honest, but perfectly safe I assure you :)
Let me know if you would like me to email you rather than click the link :)
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I'm a bit unsure about clicking on external links, I'm afraid, and I don't know anything about the host you're using.
Hi Sue,
Here is one of the images......... I am sure Vitreo94 will be happy with this screen grab I have done ?
Cheers,,
Patrick.
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I did brave it, after your assurance. ;D
It's very clear and quite greenish, or is that the (background?) It is a really, really big'un!
8) :o 8)
However, we really do like images posted directly to the board, if you could.
It keeps all the threads illustrated for future reference.
Images hosted elsewhere have a habit of vanishing at a later date.
There are loads of techie tips here for resizing images, and choices of programs to use. :)
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,34093.0.html
Oooh, thank-you Patrick - we were cross-posting!
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Thanks Patrick, i shall have to look into how to go about doing that!
It is very greenish Sue, it's a fair weight too, almost makes me wonder how he ever manged to work with it when it was molten!
Duly noted, I shall have a tinker with some images to see if i can get them down to size.
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It seems I've come up with a way of doing it, a little faffing but works all the same :)