Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Marg Delaney on May 09, 2017, 02:17:11 AM
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I would appreciate it if anyone can help me. I recently purchased through Ebay UK, two Edinburgh Crystal Champagne Flutes (Iona Design) to replace one that I broke years ago. Glasses duly arrived and I was horrified and disgusted with the differences and the quality of the ones that I received. Needless to say I contacted the seller who told me that they are Edinburgh Crystal, but there was a change in the manufacturing in latter years.
This is his argument: "The glasses sent are Iona Champagne glasses made at Edinburgh Crystal. If they do not match yours exactly its because of the handmade production technique changes over the 20 year period they made these glasses. Had you been aware of how these vary you could have asked me for more details before agreeing to purchase. These are likely a later production than yours but still Edinburgh Crystal Iona Champagne glasses as stated in my listing. You can see this by comparing my pics of them to the ones on this website. http://www.replacements.com/webquote/ediion.htm"
I have looked at the Replacements site, and I agree that the Replacements ones do look like the ones that he has sent me, but I am still skeptical that the ones he has sent are genuine. They have no hallmark etched anywhere and are narrower, shorter and missing a large crystal area above the stem. The base is also a lot smaller.
I have read here that Edinburgh Crystal may have produced pressed glass. Is this true? If so can anyone shed some light on this subject.
My glass is the one on the left of the pictures.
Many Thanks!
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I would agree with what the seller has said, they are hand blown and will vary a great deal. The ones you have for replacements are not signed because they are second quality hence the size difference probably, although my guess if your original ones are much earlier and better quality. The only way to solve the problem is to buy ones with the same or similar stamp and get detailed measurements in mm and weight in grams and pay extra for the first quality ones.
I found a set of Stuart Crystal wine hocks today and they vary by as much as 6mm in height and 50 grams in weight and they are firsts signed.
Regards Chris.
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I think it might depend very much on exactly when they were made.
If it was after 2006, "Edinburgh Crystal" has just been a brand name used by Waterford who took them over.
Waterford themselves now contract out of their country of origin for some ranges, (called Marquise), and they may well have contracted out to make Ionas.
So, you are not sure of the seller is actually correct in saying they were made at Edingburgh Crystal, he might have been correct in saying made for Edinburgh Crystal.
But them not being marked perhaps does indicate a second, which should have been clear from the listing, or perhaps that is something you should have known.
But his claim that they were made AT Edinburgh Crystal might be the thing to pick up on. Poorer quality is to be expected from the contracted out stuff.
I'm not sure where this leaves you.
Were they advertised as being of any particular age or quality?
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I could be wrong, but seem to recall seeing that the manufacture of some, or all of E.C. in recent times, has been made in Czechoslovakia - or at least not in the U.K., as mentioned by Sue. I have a feeling that some glass I've seen recently uses the backstamp of 'E. C. International'.
The backstamp for E.C., post WW II, included the wording 'MADE IN SCOTLAND' - this was a standard backstamp that existed until probably some time late in the C20/early C21, and if that wording is absent then it is unlikely that these glasses were made in Scotland.
Individual variation between identically patterned glasses, may have been more usual some years back when hand crafting glass was more the norm, but with modern production methods, I can't see the reasoning behind the sort of differences the op mentions. Traditional hand skills in making three part drinking glasses shouldn't have changed, unless we are speaking of cutting corners, or making to a different specification.
We don't know for certain, but if it was the case that these glasses are missing the backstamp, because they are seconds, then the op might have a case insofar as seconds were not discussed, or ordered.
E.C. were always known in particular for hand crafted cut lead crystal glass, not for pressed glass - certainly drinking glasses made by them in Scotland were not made by pressing.
"Had you been aware of how these vary etc"., is a non starter of an argument, since had you been aware of the difference then obviously you wouldn't have ordered them.
At least the op should request information from the seller to support the contention that these were made in Scotland, as apparently claimed, and not elsewhere, particularly as there is a lack of backstamp.
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My own Iona wineglasses, purchased in '91, have a different stamp to your flutes, it reads;
EDINBURGH
SCOTLAND
in capital letters.
The star cutting on the base is like your old flutes, not the new ones. The points are long and slim and do not join up together towards the middle so much.
I can understand your concern. Iona is a particularly good pattern and a complex and expensive one to choose to buy in the first place.
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It's not unusual at all to see the same pattern glasses in different sizes around where I'm from, my wife who worked at Royal Brierley said it took some time to get the glass blowers to perfect a new shape and many mistakes were made, I do well selling the local cut glass and see lots of variations, if it's not perfect then it's not signed and even signed ones have bubbles and faults, I charity shopped a set of Appin glasses with the same mark and I thought they were 50's polished pontils and plenty of wear an old shape that did not sell.
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it might be argued that the seller's comment ... "they are Edinburgh Crystal, but there was a change in the manufacturing in latter years." ... should have put the onus on him to inform you that he was aware of this change in specification, and was this acceptable to you.
I don't doubt Chris' comments about seconds etc., but here the point is more that the op didn't at any time order them as seconds, neither did the seller advise that the glasses being sold were not firsts.
It's possible of course that size variation within a given pattern may be seen more often from certain factories, although I've nothing to support that idea, just that I've a set of sherries from Stuart, and oddly enough a late C19 set of half a dozen champers flutes that don't vary by more than 1.5 mm. It's a point too that given many of these expensive glasses are sold within purpose made boxes, then size variation might look obvious and a problem with packing.
The lack of a backstamp may well mean seconds, so that is an argument for the buyer to pursue, in addition to the probability that these were not made in Scotland .
What was the mark Chris on your E.C. Appin glasses - do you mean the same backstamp as Sue mentioned? Is Appin still made do you know?
Meant to say............. the appearance of an almost 'pressed' type of finish on modern cut glass, is almost certainly the result of over keen acid washing to remove grinding/polishing marks, and this has been standard practice for some years. All a case of economics - it's a way of speeding up the process of finishing the glass, but as a consequence destroys what should be the sharpness of the cut pattern, and makes for an almost pressed look.
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Same as the op, I have seen it a lots of times on other patterns but on older glass, I have three 50's baluster Gerogian copy's with it on, but they are all packed away as I'm moving house.
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yes, I should have looked more carefully - it's the earlier mark which includes MADE IN SCOTLAND.
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Thank you all so very much for making the time and effort to reply to my query. Your responses make me feel more confident in my argument about these glasses.
While I am a novice, I do realise that each glass will be different to the next and as I have sets of 6 of the whisky, white wine, sherry, liqueur glasses and a whisky decanter and a sherry decanter and full dressing table set, as well as my flutes, the quality of these supposed "Edinburgh Crystal" is horrible. Think of them being like Cristal d'arques stuff.
I am taking this matter further with Ebay.
Once again, many, many thanks
Marg
BTW This is what the listing says, and he is still selling pairs on Ebay...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/cc428-SCARCE-PAIR-EDINBURGH-CRYSTAL-6-3-4-IONA-CHAMPAGNE-FLUTES-GLASSES-/262934645080?hash=item3d38204958:g:waMAAOSwOgdYyPCm
Hi, welcome to my listing and thanks for looking.
Name: Edinburgh Crystal, Scotland.
Type: Iona champagne glasses.
Quantity: 2
Date: 1970s.
Size: 17.3cm.
Weight: 366g.
Condition: Very good.
Comments: Very hard to find, no others available on eBay.
He also states:
I have tried to give the best description I can, if you think I have mis-described it in any way please let me know. Please check that it is the correct item needed as I will not accept returns because it is the wrong size or style you required.
All parcels will be sent registered post (unless otherwise specified).
Please bear in mind that as a general rule all used glassware will inevitably have the odd light mark or two. Any damage (e.g. chips, cracks, bruising, stains etc) will be mentioned.
On purchase you are acknowledging the above.
I think I really have won this argument....
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Worth reading this account of pressed glass production at Edinburgh Crystal http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=27:thomas-graham-side-lever-press-operator&catid=23:edinburgh-crystal&Itemid=11
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thanks Frank - very interesting and not something I was remotely aware of. Unless I've misread the information, the only drinking glasses that are mentioned as having been made by this 'pressed' method, were the whiskey tumblers, so do we understand it that all other shapes of drinking glasses were made by the traditional method, would you say?
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I really do not think Edinburgh Crystal Ionas from the '70s would have been outsourced.
They were not outsourced in '91 when I bought mine.
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I do not have enough info but I would expect at some point that increased use of pressing did happen in house, but note, only for blanks. I suspect the pressed cut designs were all outsourced.
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Its is well known that with their long running styles like Iona, Thistle, Star of Edinburgh the quality of the glassware reduced/changed through the 80s and in to the 1990s which I presume is either from commercial pressure or change of production techniques. I have sold Edinburgh Crystal for 10 years and have seen it time and time again and I regularly customers who are aware of this quality difference and ask questions about this very point.
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It is certainly not something I know of as being "well known" and I'm from Edinburgh.
The whole point of buying Edinburgh Crystal was that you didn't need to know top quality, you knew you were getting it. It was always suitable for wedding gifts. :)
But glasses from the era '50s '60s '70s, as stated in the listing, would not come under this '80s and '90 later "reduction in quality", whether anybody is aware of it or not.
edited to add.
I've just read the actual ebay listing. There is a note saying from the '80s underneath, in the written part rather than the dateline. So it's confusing there, but there is no mention of any reduction in quality from the later period.
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The main fact is that this eBay listing is correct. for whatever reason these glasses do not match hers exactly but they are Edinburgh Crystal and the listing is entirely accurate and not misleading in any manner.
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The seller (if they pay tax) would have lost over 40% of your purchase price.
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That makes no sense to me, any tax would be on profit not turnover. The majority of sellers who operate as a business on ebay choose to hide behind personal seller status, they do not declare themselves to ebay and thus the rest of us as business sellers.
WhatHo! is the ebay seller of the two glasses in question.
John
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You include ebay final value fee, pay pal fees, postal fees especially on something to new Zealand would have been 10%, i'm guessing for those two glasses packed would not have come under 1kg so £22.80 at least and uk tax on profit at 20% and the initial cost of the item, thats what i have to pay, have you not sold an item on eBay as a registered business seller ? it works out for every 10 quid made you loose nearly half depending on how much you paid for the item in the first place, i'm going on selling something for i have paid a pound for and selling it for ten.
If you sell regular on ebay for profit your classed as a business seller.
I should know i have submitted 5 tax returns so far, ebay is all traceable its not like cash in hand at a fair.
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If you sell regular on ebay for profit your classed as a business seller.
Ebay does not actually enforce that policy so it is effectively pointless.
As a business seller ebay's fees end up costing me around 10%, paypal charge approximately another 5%. I charge international buyers the cost of postage plus the 10% ebay adds on - it is not difficult to work out. So around 15% of all sales go in fees, there are of course many other costs along the way.
That is the cost of doing business, if you stand at a fair you have to pay your pitch fees plus all the other expenses, if you have a shop you will have rates, rent, etc to find...
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I forgot to include the listing fee, the actual fee for having a shop, some times its extra for more caragories, packaging costs, tax on packaging, petrol, repairs to the car, business insurance for the house, public liability insurance for the house, your doing well at 15% I must be doing something wrong.
They all add up. It's pointless selling anything below 10 quid,
This morning I paid nearly £40 for printer ink and paper, £30 for bubble wrap and packing tape, i can go through 36 rolls in 2 months.
Ebay need some serious competition
.
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I thought you would like to know the up-shot from all the 'help' of this case.
ebay instructed my customer to smash my glasses which she promptly did.
2 rare and lovely champagne glasses destroy for no good reason. Me massively out of pocket for doing nothing wrong.
Feast your eyes glass lovers!!
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Gobsmacked!
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which is meant to imply what??????
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Giving details about eBay cases should be treated with caution on this forum, in fact, in fairness to the seller I don't thinking it should be allowed. Using this board to provide evidence, human nature being what it is, is always going to start with a certain amount of bias and sympathy towards the 'poor' buyer who is getting ripped off by some unscrupulous dealer.
In fairness, with forum threads like this there is only one thing to be considered - 'has the seller in anyway described inaccurately or mislead the buyer in the listing description'. If no then then that should be the end of matter.
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in essence that's true, and as can be seen Ann (Mod.) often issues words of caution to us not to offer personal comments where we don't know all the facts, and I wouldn't disagree with that. Perhaps it should become a rule that the GMB shouldn't get involved as arbiter where a case remains live between a buyer and seller.
It's also true that on balance GMB members are the most likely source of accurate information regarding glass in general, so difficult to refuse some objective contribution - about the glass - where this is considered to be of help to either party regarding accuracy of facts, when ebay, for example, lack the knowledge to intervene with detailed expertise. Have a feeling we would have followed the same course of action had the discussion originated from a seller rather than a buyer.
Have to say that the instruction to smash these glasses is a new one on me - although sometimes a piece can arrive already smashed!
Who is to decide whether buyer and/or seller have been honest?? - the buyer - the seller? - certainly not ebay, since they will know nothing about glass - and as a result differences of opinion give rise to a dilemma, and in the end no one wins (except the postman). Hopefully, we learn from experience, and unethical to offer sympathies to either party since opinions alone only encourage argument.
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Hi ,
quote "Have to say that the instruction to smash these glasses is a new one on me - although sometimes a piece can arrived already smashed!"
I have heard of other instances were if eBay are satisfied that from information received an item is a deliberate fake or forgery they instruct you to destroy the item, so they must have had that impression from information received from the buyer.
cheers
Peter.
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Thanks for your comments guys.
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If folks would take a few minutes to read the Board Policy post here: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,6521.0.html they would see that we do already have a policy about commenting on sellers and online listings, etc. It would also be useful if it was abided by please, to save Mods having to keep reminding folks (as Paul mentioned above.)
If there is a post made which, for any reason, you believe to be in breach of our Policy please use the Report to Moderator function on the post and one of the Mods will check it out.
Thanks all.
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Gobsmacked!
I was being very surprised that you had been instructed to destroy the glasses! What a waste!!!
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Agreed!