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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: neilh on May 14, 2017, 02:54:07 PM
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I picked this piece up yesterday from Alfie's Antique Market near Baker Street tube (if you've never been, it's great for glass, half a dozen units specialise in glass).
This is a Molineaux Webb 1870 registration, against a comport design, example of comport shown in picture for comparison.
What's odd about the bowl is the applied circular handle. It's the only one I've seen for Molineaux Webb, and I'm not sure what the piece would have been used for. There are 2 similar small bowls with handles in the 1881 Percival Vickers catalogue, placed under pressed butters, though I'm not sure if that would have been the purpose, any opinions?
Also I wondered when these handled bowls started to appear, any pressed examples known prior to 1870?
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Neil I had a plain blown glass version of this shape and it was decided it was called a nappy (American term I think).
It might be worth searching under that term.
I had thought mine might be a taste vin but came to the conclusion that it was a nappy. To me from what I had read up, taste vins appear to be silver (perhaps to not interfere with the taste of the wine) and carried around, so I presumed glass would not be a good material for carrying around and I thought mine was too large and the handle the wrong shape to be one as well.
m
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I remember the similar shaped handled dish that m mentions - and am sure nappy was the name used across the pond rather than here - I've looked again in S. & F. where these handled shapes are described as 'jellies or sweetmeats', and were available in sizes around the 4" - 6" mark.
The S. & F. catalogue in question dates to around the early 1880s, and there are a several varieties shown, all with this circular shaped handle, so assume a reasonably common item in the second half of the C19, although whether more common at either end of that period I'm not sure.
Unfortunately - but probably for obvious reasons of not wishing to share their suppliers - S. & F. make a habit of generally not including makers names with any of their products, so no idea as to origin of similar little dishes they offer, so theirs possibly of British origin, but always a chance they started life on the Continent somewhere.
Having looked at my pix of TNA images for 1870, believe this M. W. design relates to Registration 237741 dated 3rd January of that year. The shape against which this Registration was first recorded was a shallow oval shaped dish - but regret I don't know the size - perhaps if Neil has that shape he can tell us - it is likely that Neil has seen the Kew picture for this Registration. So that's makes a total of three different shapes against 237741 - always possible there were more, but don't presently know.
As to m's comment about silver being preferable to glass for 'taste vins' - I could be tempted to think the opposite. There are occasions when I've been able to smell silver, for whatever reason, so would have thought glass more suitable from that point of view, although agree carrying around one of these things in your pocket could be iffy if someone nudged you suddenly.
If Fred wants the Kew picture for this Registration, please let me know.
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Thank you for posting these photos, Neil. With the oval dish shown on your website, they are the only photos that I have seen from this design registration. I've looked through my reference photos and can't see any examples of a handled dish like yours pre-1870. You don't give a size for it, but a handled 'nappy' / jelly/ sweetmeat is, as Paul says, normally only 4 to 6 inches or so in diameter.
Paul, a photo of the design representation from Kew for RD 237741 would be much appreciated.
Fred.
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not the best of pictures, but hopefully of some use. :)
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The item with handle is actually 241961 (lozenge is indistinct but can make out an E and C in the bottom right corner which would imply 241961). This reg is for a comport, though the pattern is identical to 237741. Perhaps there were two registrations for the pattern because one was for circular objects, and the other for oval?
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confusing to say the least - wasn't expecting the same design under two separate Registrations, and Neil is correct insofar as both 237741 and 241961 show identical pressed patterning, although as Neil says the shapes are different.
On the drawing for 237741 is written 'Ornamental design for a Glass Dish' - and for the slightly later Registration 241961 dated 26th May of that year it says 'Ornamental design for a Comport'.
So Neil's jelly/sweetmeat appears to share the same Registration No. (Rd. 241961) as the comport - both of which are circular, and maybe as Neil suggests the dish was given a separate No. simply because it's oval.
If we need the Kew picture for 241961, let me know.
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Thank you, Paul and Neil.
Picture of the design representation for RD 241961 would be nice for completeness, Paul.
Fred.
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not a brilliant picture, but maybe you can improve it possibly, Fred.
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Thank you, Paul.
The pics 'tweak' quite well. Will try and add them to the GMB RD database later today.
Fred.
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My item is 5 inches across.
Having had a closer look at the Percival Vickers catalogs, they describe this sort of item as a "handled butter", made in sizes of 5 or 6 inches.
One illustrated below
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that's interesting :) no idea it would have been used for butter. Presumably a slice of a round pat then?
It feels a bit strange to use as a butter.
m
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I'd probably agree - but then our idea of the use of some table ware items has changed vastly since the 1870s. As you say, just for a single sitting and then washed presumably ready for the next 'tea time' ................ similar to the use of unlidded jam/preserve dishes, where sufficient for simply one meal was put out. It's always possible that some named descriptions may have been more local than we might think - but as already mentioned, S.&F. use only the words 'jellies/sweetmeats'.
Probably completely unrelated, but you could be forgiven for thinking this round handled shallow dish shape had its origins in chamber sticks, which at a quick look appear similar.
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I think that, rather than a round pat of butter, a decent number of butter 'curls' (probably served in iced water in warm weather to stop them becoming rancid) placed on a smart dinner table in one of these could have looked quite attractive.
Fred.