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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: AndyD on June 16, 2017, 05:54:24 PM
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Hi,
Would anybody know who made this vase and when. It has a faint greeny tinge and lots of tiny bubbles within the glass. Flat polished base but unmarked. It is 15 cm tall and approx 11 cm O/D across the rim.
Many thanks
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Hiya!
I need Glassobsessed's opinion to add to mine, but I have a very funny feeling you might have an exceptionally scarce bit of early Mdina there, if it is, it's by Michael Harris.
I know of one other piece like it, and it is John's. It was bought directly from the Harris family's own private collection.
I do recognise the way the strapping is executed, I have a large amethyst bottle with this sort of strapping on, see if you think it could be the same hand. ;D
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Thanks, that's interesting as I bought it as a piece of Mdina. but when I saw it in the flesh I didn't think it could be. The top looks to have been ground and polished which i have never seen on a Mdina piece, but the green swirl and multi bubbles made me think it could be.
Shame it's not etched as there would then be no doubt.
Thanks again,
Andy
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???
If it is, it's very early and of an experimental nature, a little taller than John's small pot.
The ground and polished rim is not right, but I can't actually see it too well in your pics.
There is a possibility it got damaged and was subsequently ground and polished to remove a chip or something.
The round, polished pontil mark would be right, I can't tell from photos whether or not you have cobalt glass as well as teal in it, (John's piece is cobalt).
Camera's simply don't pick up the differences in colour well enough.
( ;) heehee ) an early, experimental bit of Mdina and you are "complaining" about the lack of a mark on it? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You don't want much do you? ;D ;D ;D
(Please, don't take offence, I'm just teasing. This might be a rather exciting thing.)
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The top is as finished, which is why I don't think it is a Mdina piece but maybe as you say an experimental item. Your bottle is lovely and I can see the similarities in the trailing. On mine however the trailing is flat and very neat, just two trails the same, one on each side.
As you say it is exciting to think it may be a rare Mdina piece but without confirmation it is a bit frustrating.
Thanks again for your help. No offence taken :)
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There is unlikely ever to be confirmation, just educated opinion, which is why I still want to hear what John has to say. My eyesight is not what it was a few years ago.
Is there any chance of a pic of the rim that is in better focus?
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Hopefully this shows the top a little better. The top of the trailing is smoothed into the rim which is why I am not sure about it being a Mdina piece. I didn't think they had the tools to do this kind of finish, unless it was done whilst the glass was still hot.
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The pontil mark is polished, so it would have been made after they got polishing facilities of some sort. It looks more polished inside the rim than on top.
I really want to get my hands on it for a feel. It's so hard telling from pics. :-\
;D ;D ;D
I've just had a bright thought.
I have an early Mdina textured pot with a similar rounder and inturned rim, one with a round polished pontil mark.
I haven't got pics yet, and i'm about to go out, but I'll get pics later. The rim does look and feel a bit polished, just like yours does. :)
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It looks fine, can't see the rim being cut and polished from your photos. It is from Mdina, presumably made within the first year or two so 1969 or 70 would be favourite. At least one has cropped up for sale on ebay in the last year or two.
The vase Sue mentioned that I have is shown here, not the best photos though: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,64206.msg360004.html#msg360004
The pontil mark is polished, so it would have been made after they got polishing facilities of some sort
They used to send stuff elsewhere for polishing before they bought their own kit (I forget the details but the info is in Mark Hill's book).
John
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Thanks, John.
With both of us agreeing, I think we can be 99.9999% sure it's absolutely right. ;D
The rim is the same as my pot, but I will get pics later for confirmation for you, Andy.
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Thank you both very much, great to know it is a Mdina piece. I saw one on line recently but it had a clear base, perhaps another example. Look forward to seeing the images of your pot, will be good for confirmation as you say.
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Thank you both very much, great to know that is a Mdina piece. Look forward to seeing the pot image for confirmation as you say.
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You can tell I'm new to this kind of thing. I was wondering where my reply was not realising it was on page 2. I'm getting on a bit.
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:) You and me both. ;D
Hence the eyesight not being what it once was. :'(
It was working fine while I was still collecting. I could spot a bit of good Mdina from 500 yards... 8)
I'm working on pics. I can't focus on the piece and the camera screen at the same time though.
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Please don't go to any bother. I am more than happy with the info and confirmation you have given me.
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How very exciting and what a beautiful piece! I completely understand your frustration at not knowing exactly what it is, I find the research to be very exciting and at the same time with (some items) soul destroying haha. Hope you can keep us updated! Is it for a collection of yours or did you get it for resale?
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Oh no, we're not stopping here, Andy. ;D
I'm expecting the gentleman who bought the clear-cased one which has been mentioned to join in soon.
Two of these appearing out of the woodwork, at the same time... :o :o :o :o
is cause for some sort of celebration, discussion and lots of wow-ing.
And I really do want to get my example of a rim like this up on what is a well-known Mdina design for the purpose of illustrating this thread properly for posterity.
So here's my textured pot. I've taken imgaes from different angles.
It is heat finished, but looks almost polished. It doesn't help that internal layers of colour in the rim add to the illusion of there being hard lines.
I would think it has been flattened with a damp wooden paddle, and possibly the inner part smoothed with wet newspaper. It feels vertical and absolutely smooth.
You can see an air bubble in the flat part of the rim, that might help to show that it's truly heat finished. :)
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I bought this one at auction recently ..but it's cased in clear glass . 8 inches tall , very thick , very , very heavy ! Similar... to say the least !
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That is just fabulous, Mike. Bigger than I'd thought too, 8" is not a little bit of glass.
I bet it feels great in the hands too.
And the rim is just like my textured pot and Andy's "psychadelic" strapped one whih started this.
I don't know how excited the two of you are, but I'm enjoying these pieces enough for both of you. ;D ;D ;D
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Thanks Sue , Great to see Andy's ! I can't get over how heavy it is..the strapping / trailing looks really great on these .... still haven't recovered my nerves from the auction ..... :)
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I should say here that I do know of an amethyst psychadelic strapped bottle which was cased in clear and signed by MH. Ron Wheeler sold it a few years ago.
My bottle is not cased or signed but we do have knowledge of that design cased and uncased, so this is completely consistent with these blue vases.
Andy, is yours two different colours of blue? A deep inky cobalt, and a lighter teal shade?
Or is it all one blue, like Mike's cobalt?
I'm sure the strapping looks teal, there's a bit I can see through, but the body might be cobalt?
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Mine appears to be one blue, I would say teal. The top is very similar to your textured vase.
I was watching the auction online, if I was sure it was Mdina you would have had more competition :) interesting that it was sold with another Mdina item, if I have the right aucton (there can't have been another)
I did buy mine to re sell but in no hurry, especially as I now have confirmation it is early Mdina. Had it not been it would have been a costly mistake though.
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At least buying in an auction means somebody else thought it was worth enough to push your bid up.
What I find exciting is learning that there was what we can now call a "small experimental range" of this very heavy, random and psychadelic style of strapping only MH could achieve.
As far as I'm concerned, they are signed by MH.
Picasso used to draw doodles on napkins instead of paying his bill when eating out, these pieces have Michael Harris' "doodles" all over them. ;D
There are amethyst bottles, cased and uncased, and there are two sizes of smaller blue pots, cased and uncased, cobalt and teal.
This is new information about Mdina. Suspected before, now confirmed by these new examples in this thread.
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Hi,
This zig-zag bowl that I bought back with me for a friend when I visited the USA in November has the heavy trail........ probably made in the same year as the pieces being discussed.
Cheers Patrick.
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Another very unusual beast, but I would not put zig-zags in the same category as the random psychadelic sort of patterns produced by MH.
Zigzags are a known scarce beast all on their own. :)
Anybody at the studio who was a reasonable maker could put zigzags on; it takes somebody with intrinsic artistic talent to do the "random" stuff and get it looking good.
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Just want to say thanks again to all who helped with the information on this piece. Great to think that anyone can look and learn about these pieces, and if they see one will have the knowledge to identify it.
It will be appreciated all the more for knowing it's true history.
:)
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:)
That is exactly what this board is for and about, Andy. 8)
I was a complete ignoramus to start off with, but I've learned a lot from the helpful folk here over the years, through all sorts of interesting discussions, meetings, conferences, fairs and meeting ups.
The more you learn, the more you discover there is to learn and the more you realise you don't know. ;D
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Anybody at the studio who was a reasonable maker could put zigzags on; it takes somebody with intrinsic artistic talent to do the "random" stuff and get it looking good.
Are you saying the zigzag bowl is not a Harris design...... ?
I think it is the result of 'intrinsic artistic talent.'
Cheers ,
Patrick.
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No, I'm saying zig -zags are a different kettle of fish to psychadelic-style strapping, and that other makers could do zig zags, it's a simple, repeating pattern to follow.
It doesn't take artistic talent to follow a regular simple pattern.
I do think zig zags are a MH design, what I'm saying is that he did not necessarily make them all. Others might have.
Even I could trail up and down, or round and round, with a bit of practice.
But it does take an innate talent to make a random psychadelic design all over a vessel. That is much more difficult and Michael Harris was the only one who could do it.
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I think it's the style of strapping on Sue's bottle which is the key indicator here...almost a handwriting.. as Sue implied above. Sue mentioned to me that there was a bottle , very similar to Sue's example , which was signed by Michael Harris. I really doubt that he would have signed such a piece if he hadn't have made it himself . :)
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Here's an image of a couple of early amethyst strapped pieces, which demonstrates how difficult it is to achieve good looking random strapping. They both fail, quite spectacularly.
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I see what you mean. I have some and some are good, others similar to yours. I do like them all though, they still have character.
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I've put a video of mine on youtube to show the strapping in more detail ....using a cake decorating stand !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm6qC-IYAwg
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The same as mine but with a clear base, the pattern of the trailing is the same too. I wonder how many there are yet to be found.
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I think we're up to knowing of 8 of the tall amethyst bottles.
There are about 40 Crizzle Stones, currently known.
Of these blue pieces, there's yours, John's, Mike's, and possibly 2 or three more?
There are perhaps about 10 Zig-zags known?
(John keeps up to date with things and watches the market far more than I do.)
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Some general trailing of glass going on in this video , just shows how quickly it all happens and how skilled you have to be !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b41AELY7i04
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Very pleased indeed to report that , having made a visit to the HQ of Isle of Wight Studio Glass , there is a very similar vase on display in the glass museum which is attached to the studio .
I took the vase with me and didn't expect to talk with either Timothy or Elizabeth but ended up having a very nice chat with both about my example of this type of vase. Timothy thinks it was most likely made towards the end of Michael's time at Mdina . He also mentioned that the blue colour would have been dark to begin with but as it was used up... clear glass was added to make it last longer. The result of this was that over time the blue colour became much lighter . Hence the difference in colour between the two vases.
I was kindly given permission to take a photo of both vases placed next to each other. I would like to thank the Museum and Elizabeth and Timothy for all their huge help :D
Sue ....you were spot-on ;D
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I've been wondering if this was a more simple and regular "psychadelic" sort of pattern he was trying to make so that others could repeat it? But maybe this one was too difficult?
There is the Chinese bowl design with a thick pattern of strapping on, one others could make, and the three spirals which was also repeatable.
Just musing!
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I think it's a variation of this design seen on this shallow bowl but more elongated (& simpler but more difficult to execute on the side of a vase perhaps ! )....repeated twice on my vase .
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mdina-Signed-Eric-Dobson-1974-Shallow-Ochre-Swirl-Glass-Bowl-Charger-Rosenthal-/192219352976?hash=item2cc12a8f90%3Ag%3At4oAAOSwiQ9ZQ~8F
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That's the three spirals design. :)
It does have differing executions though. A particularly nice one is like the one in that link, with the extra wiggles at the top, and some of the trails being quite thin as well as thick, as opposed to without wiggles and no variation in thickness.
Here's a couple of images (one with light reflecting off the surface, the other with light coming through) of a similar charger, but a different execution. No wiggles and thick, even trails.
Also, images of two bullet bowls, one much larger and more finely blown than the other, but with the much more elegant wiggles and varying widths of trail.
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Yes indeed ! The ends of the two wiggles on the vase taper to nothing at the top of the vase ;)
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One of my bowls ...
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I had one like that. I like the wiggle ones better.
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It's the same bowl Sue :o !! I've got it now .....good grief !
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;D 8) ;D
Well, it sat right on the top left hand shelf of my big display in the sitting room for years and cheered me up every day. ;D
I'm glad it's found such a good home. :)
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I've got something else to throw into this 3 spirals thing.
This is a Boffo piece, from Mdina, with 3 spirals on it.
But the shape makes it difficult to work out how his "personal execution" might be translated onto another shape.
It's a Whitefriars shape, the beaked vase, but this one is massive, much bigger than any ever produced at wfs, it's 11 inches tall.
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Last image of it. :)
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I remember seeing your beak vase ! It's a whopper :o The sprial design on your beak works very well with the overall shape of the vase :)
I found your bowl in Dorchester , so it has had quite a journey since leaving your shelf ! Of the three spirals around the side only one worked very well the other two were less uniform in shape . It couldn't have been easy to do !
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Just noticed that the spiral design on your beak looks similar to the sprials on the last bowl you posted on page 4 .
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The bowl doesn't have the round blob in the middle, starting it all off, and the beaked vase does have thick what might have been wiggles if they were not stretched out in the neck!
Another general thought I've had is that they changed the design of Earthtones fairly early on, from random trails to a spiral. Later on, there was a different way of executing Earthtones with random re-introduced.
The execution of random Earthtones can vary considerably, from fabulous to seriously ropey. The spiral must have been easier to execute.
I do not know whether or not that was when Harris was still there, but given IoWSG Tortoiseshell is a spiral too, it cannot be ruled out. On the other hand, it doesn't take too much imagination to come up with a spiral, it could as easily have happened independently.
My cobalt tricorn has a spiral all over it, Harris did do spirals at Mdina.
But nobody need even have seen that, to have come up with it themselves either.
Shall we continue to talk strapping and its executions here, with lots of examples?
This discussion does seem to be turning into something quite useful. ;D
So I'm going to post images of my two most utterly fabulous Earthtones pieces.
And one image of a much later execution, with the random re-introduced.
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I took a few photos at the IOW glass museum during my recent visit . The first two photos are early Mdina , the second two are early IOW showing some nice spiral designs as you mentioned Sue :D
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So that's where that Tortoiseshell charger ended up. ;)
However, early IoWSG can show similarities to Mdina tortoiseshell.
first is IoWSG, with a very squished flame pontil mark, the second is Mdina.
But they're not strapped, so I'm getting off topic. It just helps to illustrate the transition between the different islands.
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Revisiting wiggles and swirls...
John
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Thanks, John. Loads of random stuff looking great there. :)
Here's something with squiggles. To add to the swirls and wiggles. ;D
And a charger, signed by MH, much more in keeping with John's, but a different lot of colours.
Then a large Verdala bowl, where the trailing has mostly gone round and round, not much random there.
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Great set of photos !
I must make a correction to mine ...this is by Pauline Solven , Glasshouse, dated 1970...sorry for the error !
Scroll down here for details......
http://www.isleofwightglassmuseum.org.uk/
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I did think it looked a little odd for Mdina or IoWSG!
Here are two bell vases, in the pattern I call seaweed, one with fabby strapping in it, the other not so good.
And a cobalt Chinese bowl, to show the execution of the strapping on that.
Followed by three more Chinese bowls. It's not always the same.
I'll put the next two in the next post, they're better compared with each other, being the same colour, but different heights.
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last two.
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I came across this thread looking for something else...
The "squiggles" bowl Sue has shown above is NOT Mdina but WMF Ikora glass ;D
I have the same, one of my favorite Ikora pieces. Pictured in the 1928 catalogue in the Ikora book, PN 32/1589.
Michael
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:o :o :o
You got me doing a John MacEnroe impersonation there!
You cannot be serious, really?
It screams "Mdina" at me, it always has. I got it donkey's years ago and haven't paid much attention to it, thinking it rather ugly. I've even entered it into an early "ugly glass competition" we had here.
Good job we don't all like the same things, isn't it? :)
It's got the right feel the right colours, made the right way...
Mind you, I have mistaken good WMF for Mdina before and I found this about 18
years ago and shoved it away out of sight.
Thank-you so much for the correction. It is very much appreciated. ;D
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Sue, glad I could surprise you ;D ;D
And I agree, good that we don't all like the same things.
I am really fond of mine (though pics don't really do it justice) - the silver chlorides are the main decoration, giving very different looks depending where the light comes from, similar to many Mdina pieces...
Michael
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Is this not a silver nitrate thing rather than silver chloride?
It is even the right reds under the brown made by the silver.
I could never really get over the worminess of it. Not after working in labs and peering down microscopes.
Spirochaetes, syphilis... ;D
This was a good surprise, Michael. I am enjoying it immensely. 8)
I did actually bring mine out of hiding recently, and I did decide it wasn't as dreadful as I first thought.
The base has a polished, but spread all over the place, pontil mark, on a flat base that, when I look at it now, is slightly satinated.
18 years ago, I didn't know much about different bums on things and I was used to seeing various finshes on Mdina anyway.
This is quite a thrill, learning something new and having to unlearn something wrong. ;D
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Yes, probably should have said silver salts.
But your little mistake just shows how interesting early Ikora glass is...
Quite modern when compared to other ornamental glass from that period, particularly in its crudeness ;)
Here is my multicolor lamp, another favorite - much easier to identify as Ikora though.
Michael
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Looking very like Crystal blue stripe. ;D
Those are the sorts of bits I've mistaken for being top Mdina before. Beautifully executed by a master maker.
I do strongly suspect Michael Harris must have been inspired by WMF.
He was aware of glassmaking from all over the place and had travelled to work at Rogaska in the early '60s.
As the old saying goes, "there is nothing new under the sun".
If it can be thought up now, it has probably been thought up before.
(Unless it's science, which builds itself on new and emerging information, obviously.)