Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Rebecca H on November 26, 2017, 10:56:32 AM
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Hello everyone,
I am looking for an ID on my opalescent Pike. It looks very much like the Molineaux & Webb pattern but it is smaller than I have
seen (14.5cm long) and it does not have the registration number. The top fin of the tail has chipped, would have been more rounded. Hopefully someone here can point me in the right direction.
Cheers
Rebecca :)
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Hi Rebecca - in the absence of a Reg. No., then I doubt that we can help, unfortunately. Quoting Raymond Knotely - 'Popular Glass of the 19th and 20th Centuries' (Miller's) - and where he was writing with regard specifically to these pike - and under the heading of Plagiarism (p. 54) - he says - ""It is not unusual to find different-sized versions of the same basic form, and this is the case with regard to the M. W. (Manchester) pike etc. ""Sometimes, however, it can be confusing to find a version of something you already have, but without marks and with subtle differences. Plagiarism was common, and a great deal of contemporary copying went on ............ etc. etc.""
There are several known forms of this flower trough - all opalescent I think, and they come in blue, uranium and uncoloured opalescent - although I'm unsure whether all of these colours emanated from Manchester, c. 1880 - 1890.
Looking at the screen image of your pike, my thoughts are that the dorsal fin appears more prominent than the book pix of the M. W. pieces, but that might just be my needing Specsavers, again. How was your fish described when purchased, and was it a local buy?
If you search the Board's archive under 'opalescent pike/glass pike etc.' you should get some interesting reading matter - I had some vague thought that I'd posted a picture of the original factory drawing some year or two back - will re-post if I can find it. We do have other members here who have posted pix of their own pike, so fingers crossed they can be persuaded to share their better informed experiences and knowledge. :)
P.S. If you look under the 'Ancoats Exhibition 2016' in the attached link from Neil's interesting site - you will see an uncoloured opalescent example, plus what appears to be a darkish green non-opalescent pike. I think they also come in blue non-opalescent.
https://sites.google.com/site/molwebbhistory/Home/registered-designs/derbyshires-unregistered-pressed-glass
copy of TNA original M.W. factory drawing dated 14th July 1885 .... http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=64398.0;attach=204046
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Thank you Paul for such a detailed reply :)
The Pike came in a bulk lot of glass at a local Auction House here in Adelaide, South Australia. I bid on the lot to get this one piece, no description at all and an absolute bargain.
Great links too. The dark green Pike looks very similar but it is hard to compare with just photos.
Thanks again Paul,
Cheers Rebecca
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Hi,
I just come across this query as we have some of the larger Pike's.
The "Popular glass of the 19 and 20C" by Raymond Notley page 36 quotes that Molineaux and Webb made two sizes of pike and show a picture extremely similar to this of the smaller pike plus a picture of the larger ones on page 54.
I could take a picture of the book if required, or aloud by this site ?
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Thanks Thewingedsphinx,
A photo of the book would be great if the forum allows.
Cheers
Rebecca. :)
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well, there's no need to shout ;D ;) ;D I've a feeling that for copyright reasons we can't do that, but no doubt the Mods will put us right. :)
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Hi, here is a similar one for sale. Pictures are not great but I think it's the smaller one.
https://collectingtheworld.co.uk/collections/glassware/products/a-victorian-molineaux-and-webb-press-moulded-opalescent-glass-pike-flower-trough
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My first thought was that it was ok but on closer inspection the tail end looks to be wrong. It may be that its had some damage and been polished out, or that it was made by another factory.
A link to the opalescent blue example I had.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,58194.msg329688.html#msg329688
Roy
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a shame that the pix are of poor quality - a piece such as this really needs better presentation. Never having owned one of these Roy I've no idea of the accuracy of the appearance of the Registration No., but on the assumption this piece carries said No. we would assume it was a M. W. fish - do you consider the Reg. No. looks correct and in the right location on the pike, for a M. W. mould?
Just for the record, the presence of a Registration No. doesn't automatically mean the piece was made in that year - the Rd. No. indicates when the design was first Registered, and it is quite possible the piece was in fact made in the second half of 1885. It's equally possible that the item was made in the following few years - some moulds had quite lengthy lives. According to the books, all of the Heppell moulds were purchased by Davidson, in 1884, when the Heppell business failed - so always possible some Heppell moulds were being used much later than we think.
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Thanks for those beautiful photos, yes Roy I think the tail is definitely different. I know mine has the large chip to the top of the tail but the bottom fin looks too short. I'm of the opinion now that it most likely is another manufacturer, still around the same age I guess. Will be keeping an eye out for a larger one, have yet to see one here in South Australia.
Happy New Years to all
Rebecca. :) :) :D
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HNY to you as well Rebecca :)
My rather uneducated opinion is that if the pike in the link bears the correct Rd. No. then it will have been made from a M.W. mould. Of course that doesn't rule out the existence of a fake mould carrying the original M.W. Reg. No., but we'd need to have a previous known instance of this before accepting it as fact.
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Happy New Year Paul and everyone.
The blue Pike in the link carried the correct Rd No.
Paul are we getting confused between Molineaux Webb and Heppell.
Still looking at Rebecca's Pike it looks OK except for the back to fins at the top and the tail , damage may account for that if large chips were polished out. AS for not carrying RD No not sure but very possible some were not marked.
Roy
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yes Roy - I was ...... won't say 'we', as it was only me getting it wrong, and have now amended my post - thanks for pointing out my mistake. :)
I made my comments in the light of Rebecca's suggestion that the linked pike - carrying the M.W. Rd. No. - might be from another manufacturer.
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My dark green pike, the smallest size, was proven to be Molineaux Webb after comparing it to larger registered examples held by other collectors. What convinced us was the pattern of small dots on the underside of the base. Alas I don't have the pike to hand and didn't photograph that part at the time...