Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Paul S. on December 09, 2017, 02:45:08 PM
-
The Board of Trade allocated twelve Reg. Nos. to the factory on the above date - one of which, No. 321373 we have discussed very recently and a copy of the factory drawing has already been provided. Of the remaining eleven there appear to be four 321372, 75, 78 and 79 - for which I either don't have copies, or if I do they're worse than useless, so these I hope to find on my next trip to Kew ............ and in the meantime the seven I do have now follow. We're back to those blue pencil drawings, which are of poor quality at the best of time, so apologies in advance - some are o.k. some are very poor - perhaps Fred can work his magic on the latter:-) Four pix initially, then three to follow on the next post.
-
and, for the time being, three more ............
-
Brilliant! Thanks Paul. :)
-
Thank you very much for showing these, Paul.
I will try and get them correlated with their Sowerby pattern numbers over the next couple of days, always assuming that today's raging blizzard doesn't deprive us of our electricity.
Fred.
-
Sowerby RD 321368 appears to correlate with Sowerby pattern 1324 covered butter dish, shown on page 6 of Sowerby pattern book XI (1885). Cottle (page 100) does not offer a correlation.
Sowerby RD 321369 correlates with Sowerby pattern 1397 sugar box base, shown on page 50 of patten book XI (1885). Cottle (page 101) does not offer a correlation. Interstingly, the lid for the sugar box appears to have a separate design registration - somewhere within the registration bundle RD 318789 to 318795registered on 20 February 1873 -Parcel 3.
Sowerby RD 321370 correlates with Sowerby pattern 1318 covered butter dish, shown on page 6 of pattern book XI (1885). ). Cottle (page 101) does not offer a correlation.
Fred.
-
Sowerby RD 321371 correlates with Sowerby pattern 1303 basket, shown on page 6 of Sowerby pattern book IX (1882). Cottle (page 101) gives a correct correlation.
Fred.
-
Assuming that Cottle (page 101) is correct with his correlation, Sowerby RD 321372 should correlate with Sowerby pattern 1308 tripod vase, shown on page 6 of pattern book IX (1882).
We already have Sowerby RD 321373 correctly correlating with Sowerby pattern 1302 triple vase.
Fred.
-
Cottle (page 101) correctly correlates Sowerby RD 321374 with Sowerby pattern 1301 2-handled basket, shown on page 6 of pattern book IX (1882).
Fred.
-
Assuming that Cottle (page 101) is correct, Sowerby RD 321375 should correlate with the Sowerby pattern 1310 vase, shown on page 6 of pattern book IX (1882). I don't have a reference photo of an actual example of this pattern.
Similarly, Sowerby RD 321376 should correlate with the Sowerby pattern 1307 triple base, shown on page 6 of pattern book IX (1882). ). I don't have a reference photo of an actual example of this pattern either.
Fred.
-
Cottle (page 101) correctly correlates Sowerby 321377 with the Sowerby pattern 1304 vase, shown on page 6 of pattern book IX (1882). I don't have a reference photo of an actual example of this pattern.
I await Paul's Kew drawing for Sowerby RD 321378 in due course. Cottle (page 101) doesn't offer a Sowerby pattern correlation for this RD so, for the moment, this is in abeyance.
Assuming Cottle (page 101) is correct with his correlation, Sowerby RD 321379 should correlate with the Sowerby pattern 1306 handled basket with diamond-shaped body, as shown on page 6 of pattern book IX (1882). Again, I am lacking a photo of an actual example in this pattern.
Fred.
-
speaking I'm sure on behalf of many folk here Fred, your efforts put most of us to shame - very many thanks for taking the time with all of these posts.
I'm surprised at your comments that the lid for sugar box 321369 is referenced under a separate Registration No. - I will go now and ferret this out hopefully - but if I don't have said No. will include in the next Kew foray.
-
Fred - reflecting on your comments that the lid for sugar box Rd. 321369 appears not to have been Registered at the same time as the base, seems unusual perhaps, and I've looked through the seven Nos. you indicate as possibly harbouring the Reg. for the lid only - Nos. 318789 to 318795. Regret to say I'm unable to find a Registration for said lid within the number range you mention, but what suddenly occurred to me is the fact that these seven Nos. were allocated something like 4 months prior to Registration of the base (May of that year). It appears rather back to front that a component such as a lid might be Registered months prior to its intended base - suppose you might argue that this lid served as a 'part' for more than one Registration - but we'd need proof of that suggestion, and I don't see evidence of that in the Kew drawings.
As you have pointed out, the base for this 'sugar box' appears in Sowerby pattern book XI, minus its lid - but it does appear in the factory drawing with the lid, which would have been the official information supplied by Sowerby to the Board of Trade. So do we argue that the data provided to the Board of Trade on the 14th of May 1878 i.e. the whole design including lid, should be our criteria for assuming that Reg. 321369 was indeed intended to cover both lid and box?
What in particular made you suggest that the lid might occur within the seven Registrations from 20th February (parcel 3) of that year?
-
The Sowerby RD 321369 / pattern 1397 sugar box is also shown with its lid on page 59 of pattern book XI (1882), appearing as it does on the Kew drawing.
I mentioned that it appeared that the lid had been registered as a separate design somewhere within the RD bundle for 20th February 1878 - Parcel 3 simply because I had a note to that effect with my reference photos, but I have no more detailed evidence than that.
Fred.
-
thanks Fred - if you agree, I'm going to suggest that for the time being we treat the whole of this item - the box and it's lid - as being covered by Reg. 321369, unless some positive evidence to the contrary is found. :)
-
Agreed, Paul.
Fred.
-
here are the missing four Sowerby Registrations - from 14th May 1878 - mentioned in the first post .................. 321372 (two pix) - and one picture each for .... 321375, 321378 and 321379. Again, all very poor quality, so hope you can work some sort of improvement Fred. Four pix on this post and one will roll over to the following post.
-
and the final one from this date/group ........... 321379
-
Thank you very much for posting these final 4 design representations, Paul.
All added to the GMB RD database and, apart from RD 321378, to the Glass Queries Gallery Sowerby patterns album too.
So far, I have been unsuccessful in matching Sowerby RD 321378 to any pattern in the extant Sowerby pattern books.
Fred
-
massive thanks as usual Fred for all your hard work. Sorry to hear 321378 is proving problematic - if you've failed then very unlikely I'll do any better, but if I get the time will cast an eye over the patterns.
-
no luck I'm afraid. These twelve Registrations from Parcel 9 dated 14th May 1878, appear to have occurred too late to have found their way into Sowerby Pattern book No. VIII, and it looks as though they had to wait until the appearance of Pattern book No. IX in June 1882, before they were seen in print - at least I hope I have those dates correct.
As far as Sowerby Pattern catalogues are concerned, Reg. 321378 should be seen in the vicinity of the other Nos. from Parcel 9 on 14th May 1878 -i.e. within the range of factory pattern Nos. 1302 - 1326, or very close by - most of which can be seen on page 6 of Pattern book IX.
Have exhausted my books searching for this one Fred, but have to say that I've not looked at the Thistlewood's CD catalogues - have you?
Are you aware of any known examples of Sowerby Registered patterns that in fact never made it into production?
-
I think there have been odd Sowerby design registrations for which there seem to be no pattern matches in the extant pattern books but I will need to check back through the reference photos before I can itemise them.
Fred.
-
I've looked at Sowerby Vol 1 (Thistlewood CD) and there is nothing in the shape of RD 321378 in it. Nor does it show in the two Sowerby catalogues VIII (1880) and IX (1882) here: http://www.victorianpressedglass.com/pattern_books.htm so it's a bit of a puzzle. I've also looked through Jenny Thompson's Pressed Glass and its white-covered supplement, no image of this in either volume, not in Angus-Butterworth either. Can't find a mention of it online anywhere, so I wonder if it was a design they tried and then found it didn't work in practice?
-
it is beginning to appear that way Anne - the more you look at the outline shape, combined with what may have been a very difficult if not impossible cavity to produce with a plunger, then it's not unreasonable to think someone was being a tad over optimistic. That said, there are many Sowerby designs that had improbable looking bodies and cavities, but which did in fact see the light of day - sometimes it makes you marvel at the factory's ingeniousness.
-
I would think something that shape would have to be mould blown rather than mould and plunger, or am I way off base there?
-
do you mean manually by mouth, using a blowing iron - or by some mechanical pneumatic contrivance? Showing my ignorance here Anne - I've no idea if, at that stage in the Victorian period, mechanical means were available - perhaps someone can tell us. :)
I'd agree with you, that the appearance of the body and presumed shape of the cavity, would suggest a plunger is out of the question - but whatever the situation, for some reason this design seems not to have seen the light of day. I wonder if another manufacturer's design was being infringed, and Sowerby quietly withdrew this one?
-
Probably mouth blown but into a mould; it was and is very common
-
thanks :)