Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: thewingedsphinx on December 29, 2017, 04:24:13 PM
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I'd be very grateful if anyone could identify this fish sauce dish. It has no markings, it's not Heppell, I'm sorting through surplus items of a pressed glass collection, please see attached photo.
Thanks
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Is it glass? It looks more like pottery from the photo. Could you add a picture of the base please?
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Hi Anne, please see attached photo of the base, if you think this item is not categorised correctly feel free to delete this post. Apologies for any confusion.
Thanks
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Thanks for the extra photo. I can't honestly say if it's glass or pottery to be honest, so let's see what others think. :)
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Ceramic for sure: shape can't be made by pressing or mould blowing glass without significant hot work (of which there are no signs).
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Looking at the base it's glass, I believe, however, not knowing the exact manufacturing process... glazing pottery always leaves certain areas unglazed? ???
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What's the interior look like? Just wondering if there are any spur marks or such which would explain the apparent lack of unglazed areas on the base.
Even without such marks I wouldn't rule out ceramic. Certain small crested porcelain wares have similarly shiny bottoms and I still can't see how you could make this shape from glass.
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The op's reference to Heppell is understandable - this factory made fish vases and lidded butter in white opal glass that have more than a passing similarity to this piece - their lidded butter in particular, with its looped tail, is not a million miles away, and must have been a complex piece to produce - the failure rate might have been high.
However, this one isn't Heppell as the op has reminded us, and IMHO the shape of this piece may well make the difference between glass and ceramic - the moulded glass Heppell items are typical of what you would expect from a mould, which is symmetry. A mould based on the shape of this sauce boat couldn't close equally because of the irregular shape, so I'm suggesting this is ceramic. :)
P.S. how about scratching a small area on the underside with a steel stylus and see what happens.
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This was a surprise I just come across this on eBay and according to the description it is a Heppell, and I was just about to send it back to the loft.
Luckily I didn't scratch it but nearly through it out. Phew!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Medical-Pap-Boat-Invalid-Feeder-Fish-Pressed-Glass-Cream-White-1882/222773127362?hash=item33de5028c2:g:LdIAAOSwe51Z7g~J
The description is convincing, interested in your views.
Thanks
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Heppell items belong to the lozenge period and presumably all items should carry the diamond Reg. details ............ I don't see this design in the Board's archive for the Heppell factory, so it will be worth asking the seller to confirm if the piece in the link carries a Reg. lozenge, and if so what the details are.
Alternatively, like other Heppell moulds, this one assuming it's theirs, may well appear in Davidson catalogues c. mid 1880s - it's possible that a connection has been made with Heppell based on the colour and similarity of shape to known Heppell designs.
According to the list of Registration designs for 1882, there were only three - Nos. 390584- 86 ............ as far as I know these cover the three sizes of upright fish vases (390586) ........ the butter dish and cover (390584) .............. and the unusual upright sugar bowl (390585). Images of all three pieces can be seen on the Board's archive.
Of course this might be an interesting item of Heppell's, - perhaps the seller can help us with this one. :)
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I still think it's ceramic; specifically a porcelain fired to beyond zero porosity. That explains the glassy appearance as the solids have vitrified and the glaze fused to the paste.
If this were glass, it would have to be pressed in order to form the looped tail, but there would be no way of removing the plunger cleanly.
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my opinion remains the same too - understandably, there is a Board policy of not criticizing or dismissing the alleged authenticity of pieces which are linked from current external auction sites ........... I was trying, politely, to show that IMHO, the linked piece is unlikely to be Heppell. Nonetheless, it's courtesy to suggest that some assistance from the seller might help with a conclusion, and in this instance the presence, or otherwise, of a lozenge might be the way forward. :)
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I'm in the ceramic group too. The tiny surface holes are typical of glaze but not of glass
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Thanks for your comments, I found another reference to Heppell on this sale room link, however my father is of a similar opinion and this item never appeared in his Heppell collection.
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/martel-maides-auctions/catalogue-id-srmart10013/lot-9331e0ad-fadd-4f7d-8076-a51500b94a91
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the text for the two items says Heppell, then ends by saying 'unknown maker' ??? am sure it would have been better had they stuck with the second of their two comments.
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Having looked at the bigger images on the eBay one, I'm leaning towards ceramic as well, with those surface holes as Sue says.
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Inspired by that thought, I went fishing, and look what I caught... another one in the same shape but definitely ceramic: https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/545446872/vintage-fish-sauce-gravy-boat-pitcher
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yes, I think we've now nailed it positively as a non glass item - holes as Christine mentioned ;D
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I have seen several photos from different sources of the 'pap boat' as shown in the opening post of this thread, and the descriptions seem to be equally divided as to whether the item is of glass or ceramic. There has never been an example which actually bore a registry design lozenge.
I'm pretty sure that the putative W.H. Heppell attribution is based purely on the stylistic similarity to Heppell's RDs 390584 to 390586 (photos below for permanent reference in this thread).
Also, as I'm sure most GMB members are well aware, an auctioneer's attribution (even from a supposedly reputable auction house) often needs to be taken with a substantial pinch of salt.
Fred.
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thanks for the pix Fred. You are quite correct regarding the unreliability of auction houses - failings which might be thought to afflict provincial houses only, but as the GMB has discovered it affects the big ones too. If only they would ask for our opinion first ......... ;)
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That's cracking thanks for all the info, so if it's a sauce dish it's £22 which is around the same price my father paid for our one 20 years ago, or if described as a Heppell pap feeder its £285.. wow, .
I've asked the current eBay seller how they have determined a Heppell connection, but still waiting a reply.
There are also similar pewter fish style pap dishes, which I presume this was based on.
No wonder my father never displayed it and put to one side,
Cheers
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I have seen a few of the fish dishes over the last few years and I would say ceramic. My personal opinion is that its very unlikely to be connected to Heppell.
Roy
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:-\
yes, I think we've now nailed it positively as a non glass item - holes as Christine mentioned ;D
Oops! Sorry, Christine it was... sorry Christine. :-* Blame the wind, it addles my brain. :-\