Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: burch69 on January 07, 2018, 05:15:46 PM
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Hi wondered if anyone had any info on these, brought as a piece in a recent action and struggling to ID it. As always any assistance gratefully received. It measures 19cm across and has no marks underneath. Many thanks Patrick
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is it opaline glass?
Does it have a large polished pontil mark?
Can we see a clear good photograph of the pontil mark on the reverse please along with a clear good pic of the whole base and a description?
thanks
m
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Hi M
yes the base doesn't have a pontil mark I can see and as it broadens out to form the back of the sides it has a circular pattern as you can see from the pic. But the base it self is totally flat.
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occurred to me whether it might have been opaline - it has a sort of milky type appearance - assume it is totally opaque. Purely decorative I'd have thought, and I'm thinking it is trying to tell us it's Bohemian/Czech/German from some time ago ;D
Could it be coloured milk glass.
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Blue opaline (and opaline in general) photographs incredibly badly for representation Paul.
I have bought pieces no one else has looked at because they look terrible in pics, and when they arrive they are always much more beautiful in reality. ~Ditto with much enamelling. Photographing it shows up what appears to be little defects but in reality, often it presents to the eye as perfectly enamelled.
I think it's definitely translucent (you can see the gilded pattern on it from behind in the photographs and that's without light going through it)
and definitely not opaque (I have blue opaque very old glass and it's completely opaque like Wedgwood pottery to the eye until you hold it up to a very strong light when it turns red). What's throwing me is I can see lovely little bubbles in the opaline which I always think is good quality older opaline, but then it has that molded base. (as you say, similar to some seen on opaque white glass of a later period)
I think it's Bohemian and would have said c.1860-1870s given the colour, opaline, rim and raised decoration.
But that would be a guess. Deep blue opaline was used earlier, as was the cut gilded rim but I just think the way it is decorated (not flat to the glass but gilded padded enamels) and the strange molded foot rim puts it later. Could be even later than that I suppose.
Open to correction as ever though.
m
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agree with you on most of that. Unmarked material possessing generic qualities appear commonly, and can be a pain to nail down - as a suggestion how about looking for other known pieces with that rim design/shape??
Since writing said comments, I was looking in C.H. for other Bohemian reasons - page 89 shows some b. & w. pix of pages from the 'Art Journal' depicting pieces shown at the Great Exhibition. Looking at the 'shaped' rims of ewers, decanters and like minded vessels - these are very similar the edge design/pattern showing on Patrick's plate. See what you think.
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Thanks for the discussion most interesting but outside my little knowledge. I am mostly interested in Scandinavian glass for 60/70's. I am posting a couple of pic of it with sunlight going through and a pic of the lot I brought it with. I don't think there is anything in the lot to suggest it origins but as I say I'm a little outside normal area here, there are some English bits, Iittala palm leaf bowl some quite nice looking Carnival glass bits, obligatory Maltese horse and a few unknown.
From the information am I best starting around Bohemian glass and going from there?
Patrick
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Your Palm bowl is Dartington, not Iittala.
I can't help with the plate though, sorry.
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the base of the blue opaline plate reminds me of the finish on an American bowl I have.
I think the explanation I was given for my bowl was that it had been 'stuck up' ?
Maybe something similar in method with the plate somehow?
m
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as with most allegedly antique glass, we're back to the eternal problem of deciding whether something is period or repro. It's not difficult to look at something that shows distinct and known characteristics and say ah yes, that's Bohemian or ABP or deco or nouveau, but then comes the issue of dating, and this isn't always easy from a screen image alone. Bohemian isn't my area - sometimes I think nothing is my area -there was a time when we had some of the knowledgeable Continental collectors as members, and I'm sure they would have been able to help with a piece such as this.
Often it needs experience to say a given piece is 'right' - discoloured and slightly worn enamelling - raking the light across a plate to assess any knife marks - wear on high spots and those parts that would make contact - thickness, which can be more substantial on older glass - no one pretends it's easy - and sometimes it's very difficult. IMHO the best you might do with a piece like this is to suggest a decade or two - maker would be out of the question I'd suggest.
This plate may well be second half C19, it might be mid C20 - visiting museums, antiques fairs, galleries etc. might just help. Sorry to be rather useless.
Please, what is stuck up? :)
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M means snapped up, not stuck up. Glen explains it here under hand finishing https://www.carnivalglassworldwide.com/handmade-glass.html and it does seem more common on hand made US glass than on European glass of a similar period (pre-automation)
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thanks :) I notice that the link includes both the 'snapped up' and 'stuck up' expressions. Since a plate wouldn't have a collar base for the 'snap' to grip, then is it possible m was correct with 'stuck up' - which requires a dab of plastic glass on the end of the pontil rod with which to hold something plate shaped?? ;D
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Thanks again for all the input, it has been most interesting. Ah the importance of punctuation, there should be a comma between Iittala and palm. I have another couple of leads to follow from some old contacts in Holland and will let you know if I am able to shed any further light. Thanks Patrick
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I think the plate does have a collar base...
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Hi excuse the ignorance but what is a collar base?
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A base with a rim round it that can be gripped like this one here https://www.carnivalglassworldwide.com/uploads/3/7/0/9/37096651/published/cosmos-cane-rosebowl.jpg?1503331461
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Ok yes thanks, it has a drop of approx 1.5 from top of the rim to the bottom of the base.
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On the face of it, you'd imagine there to be insufficient 'collar' for the wire to grip - too much likelihood of the plate falling off - but Christine is a lot more knowledgeable about glassy matters than me - so I will defer to Christine's suggestion.
Of course, suppose you might argue that even had a pontil rod been used for the 'stuck up' method, then evidence of such might have been ground away without leaving any sign of its use.
Does the figure of 1.5 refer to centimetres or inches?? ;D
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That's a better picture; no there's not enough to grip. It was probably neither stuck nor snapped.
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Hi Paul 1.5 cm
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thanks both. :)
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Hi
Just as a follow up on this one. I recently had some feedback from one of the Oxford museums who's thoughts were that it is probably mid 19th century, Bohemian molded blue opaline glass, with a wheel cut edge and hand gilded. Due to the number of possible manufacturers and lack of marks, it is going to be very hard to narrow down further. i was going to see if anyone of the Uk collections had anything similar and will post any results. Thanks Patrick
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I'd suggest that the Oxford museum's conclusion is probably what most of us would have suggested - the shaped outer rim, the translucence, the colour, the gilding etc., and yes would agree further information probably a non-starter.
You might try the V. & A. in London - the glass and ceramics dept. will always offer opinions if you send them emailed pix etc. I had some chat with them recently over something though I've now forgotten what it was. They might take a week or so to reply, but get back to you they will at some time, though suspect their response may be no more specifically detailed than that of Oxford. I forget the lady's name, but do give them a try.
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Thanks Paul for the suggestion there on the V and A, unfortunately they don't seem to be responding to public inquiries at the moment due to staff shortages, only ones relating to their own collection. i have another few leads to follow so will let you know if able to get anything more.