Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: cdm1christopher on April 30, 2018, 01:19:24 PM
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Just got this today 90% certain baccarat date wise I was thinking pre 1800. Very tall 42cm top is 19.5cm. Opaline glass although maybe vitrified as has a porcelain look to it but the firey red glow in this def suggests lots bone ash. Green is uranium seems to glow under UV light. Something which is puzzling me and if anyone can mention why this is I would really appreciate it. The glass looks as if it has lots of small chips all over to the naked eye, but under a x10 loupe the glass seems like a crackle glass but shards have splintered off which makes it look as if it's chipped. I'm lost on this one. Been made in seems to be 3 parts all hand blown and wheel cut. The green is a satin finish. I have only come across a compote in this style but it has a snake around the waist. umarked no design number. Any input would be great.
Posted 2 pics.
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The peculiar surface you mention sounds like what is called (age-related) crizzling.
Crizzling is also the name given to a deliberate technique in glassmaking, which involves plunging a hot gather into cold water to crack the surface, but I believe the name was taken from this sort of crizzling which is an age-related thing, because the sorts of older recipes of glass used were not so stable.
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Hi
many thanks for info. It does look a bit like crackle glass but its def not the same plus there are black marks between the crizzling so it looks dirty plus unusual for it to flake/splinter off. So I'm assuming as you have said the glass has become unstable and started to crizzle which would suggest its quite an old piece?
So it's quite a normal process?
It's a first for me as I have handled lots of glass but never seen this on glass before.
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There are some good images of crizzled (also sometimes called "sick") glass and an explanation from Lustrousstone in this thread.
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,63718.msg357363.html#msg357363
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Many thanks yes that's exactly how mine looks. Remarkable.
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Pic under UV light
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not pre 1800. Probably around 1850/60 I think.
How can you be 90% certain it is Baccarat please?
m
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Can we see a photograph of the foot and base please and a description of how the base is finished.
Thank you
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Hi
cannot be 100% certain as there are no marks to the base although on older pieces this would not be uncommon.
The colour to me says baccarat opaline as I have had a few pieces with exactly the same hue. The green also being fairly pastel in colour and the design. Having looked through many catalogues I am unable to pin it down to an exact piece although there are similar designs. I also came across a few pieces sold by reputable dealers which again same design one a compote the other a smaller version similar to this.
The foot is triple step. Hollow underneath and flat cut and having a polished foot rim. It could have been a one off, trial piece not really sure. The folded rim and pineapple cut to me suggest baccarat style but! Maybe Val St Lambert? Although not really seen any pieces like this made by them. Plus baccarat used uranium in some of their early pieces.
If you can shed some light on the piece be much appreciated.
Cheers
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It has some similarities with this piece - however without having both in hand it is difficult admittedly:
http://www.annin-glass.cz/muzeum/#&gid=1&pid=2
http://www.annin-glass.cz/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Annin_150620_02.jpg
m
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Well put spanner in the works! Czech! I'll get in touch with them see if can pin down a company date etc. I'll keep you posted.
Many thanks Chris
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Dumb me that is the company I was so excited I did not think to actually read.
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Yes, it is in Czech.
I think in German language for this glass factory would be Annathal bei Schüttenhofen. (open to correction from anyone else)
That might help you search for more.
Again I think the factory might have been under Loetz.
Sorry to be so vague but I'm not checking info and have been away from glass for a while.
m
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A couple of things -
1) the pineapple bit in the middle, I can't remember seeing that on Bohemian glass but that's not saying much.
2) Again the pineapple bit, the Baccarat ones I've seen I thought were less square edgy and more rounded pattern but again I haven't seen much. Do you have the Baccarat book and is that bit the same as those in the book?
3) the crizzling - is that likely on Baccarat glass? I have read about it happening in Bohemian glass but again, I'm not sure whether the author was referring to much earlier period stuff and that is something dredged up from memory.
m
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Wish I did have baccarat book but very expensive.
Good point the cuts are sharp as opposed to polished off.
The catalogues I've gone through unfortunately are more drawings as opposed to detailed photos.
I suspect it is quite an early piece as as far as I am aware early glass would become unstable over time as it would have been at a time when they would be experimenting with glass mixtures I think that's right! Does baccarat glass suffer crizzling? Well again maybe very early pieces but unfortunately early pieces do not come up that often if at all. I was lucky with this piece picked it up cheap but knew it was special. I think looking at the pieces in the museum your spot on 're Czech. I'll mail them tommoz with some pics and hopefully they will come back with some more info. Might get them excited has me.
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What you have is a pineapple stand, not a vase. Crizzling is not particularly age or manufacturer related; it's caused by a poor batch but does take a fair while to show up.
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Thanks for info why pineapple stand did they actually serve pineapple from it? Silly question but only logical explanation I can think of. I still would say it's relatively old.
Any info from museum I will post.
Thanks for info.
Chris
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Pineapples were a status symbol and displayed on the dining table. For a very long time, you were either rich enough to buy one or rich enough to own a suitable pineapple bed in a hothouse to grow them in. Whether they actually got eaten or just displayed for as long as possible is debatable, though perhaps when this was made they were not quite so prestigious. Datewise I would say late 1800s.
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I think it's earlier Christine. I think it's around 1860 ish.
For example there is a blue and white piece in Das Bohmische Glas Band III pp 159 with a similar foot but no pineapple that is dated 1854-1860 'probably Schachtenbach'.
All the other pieces I've seen over time have been similarly dated to c.1860.
There are other pieces in the book in green and white also dated c.1860
m
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I was thinking circa 1840/60. I do not believe it to be later than this. The style shape colour was in fashion from 1790 through to 1860 from then on this style started to fall out of fashion. If my research serves me right!
Personally I think it's a unique piece and to find similar examples intact and not damaged, (apart from crizzling) would be pretty difficult.
Chris
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I can find one set of Saint Louis goblets with a green 'pineapple ish but not really' knop (ie it is a faceted knop) in opaline green possibly uranium glass, in the stem, that date to 1840-1850 - Les Baguiers, Darnis L. p 159
I can find two bowls on stems with the turned back petalled collar in blue and white that date to c. 1845-1850 pp 57 - same book as above. They appear to be described as 'pate de riz' (should be a hat above the a in pate but I don't know how to do it). But there is something different about the way the edges of the petals are and yours have been cut polished and gilded and I think yours looks more Bohemian in make than French. But I could be wrong!
Do you have reference for the shape dating back to 1790?
I do recall seeing a trumpet shaped opaline vase with a turned back plain rim that I think dated to 1820 where I was surprised it was so early, but I just cannot remember where I saw it and it was only a few days ago.
There is a Harrach very large vase on stand that is green and white that is dated to 1873 iirc.
Isn't crizzling damage?
m
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I'll have to sift through baccarat catalogues. Take a while but they where experimenting with opaline glass back in I think 1780/90 and where designing amongst other things scaled down in size pineapple stand/stands. But! more in line with a compote. Same pineapple cut same colour opaline same green but the guilding on petals was much more ornate. I'll see if I can track a particular piece i gound somewhere and copy and paste the picture. Hence I thought it was poss baccarat. But m I think your right in the first place 're Czech.
I think that's subjective 're crizzling damage! All it means is the glass is slowly breaking down. I know some manaufacturers would add this crizzling as a feature during the glass making process Mdina comes to mind and they are rare and very expensive. So in fact maybe it was a deliberate feature. Otherwise just normal process of glass breaking down. Look at early Venetian glass some pieces have more or less broken into pieces but are still highly cherished. Long winded I know but damage depends how you look at it really.
Chris
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Ah here we go listed on eBay as baccarat 1880.
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Missing pineapple cut.
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yes but ebay isn't a primary reference source is it?
That leaf design gilded is also something I have seen on pieces identified as Bohemian in museum glass and also Russian. I am not sure I have seen it on a definitely French piece but I could be wrong. I do recall seeing ( what I think might be French) a deep dark blue opaline leaf shaped dish (on a French antiques auction site) but I cannot remember if it actually had the leaf gilding on it.
And crizzling. Mdina 'crizzled' glass isn't the same thing at all as far as I am aware. Chopin knows much much more about Mdina than I will ever know so hopefully will be able to explain more about it.
Crizzling caused by sick glass/bad batch cannot be stopped and it means the glass will eventually fall to pieces I think?
I still think yours looks Bohemian by the way it is made, however ... the pineapple stem isn't something I've come across, so who knows, it might be French.
m
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It's listed as maybe baccarat but no I don't take eBay as a resource for info. Just interesting to see how designs differ and if not marked how hard it is to actually pin it down. But it does resemble the design in the museum. Yes the glass will eventually break as does old venetion glass due to the glass mixture being unstable. But that takes a good 300 to 400 hundred years. So I think it still has some life in it and I'm sure it will out live me. Displays beautifully.
Not sure where term sick glass etc comes from? Surely before they made the pieces they must have known the batch was inconsistent/unstable? Or was it used to make prototypes not necessarly intended to be sold on? The reason I'm thinking this is because the more I look at the piece I wonder if it is complete from a decorative point of view.
Anyhow hopefully the museum will get back to me so long as they understand English!!! Orrefors usually pretty good.
Mdina to be honest does not appeal to me at all just read somewhere that they made a few designs with crizzling effect. See one somewhere. Probably eBay ha ha. Just kidding.
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I don't think all Venetian glass breaks down does it?
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They didn't always know the batch was unstable.
I guess it may have been fine for a good number of years then started to deteriorate.
I can recommend reading the information that Walter Spiegl has online regarding various types of glass. There is mention within his writings of crizzling in glass and why.
http://www.glas-forschung.info/
There is also some amazing information out there in books such as Das Bohmische Glas (various Bands) and From Neuwelt to the Whole World for example.
Books can be a great resource depending on when and whom written by of course.
Also do have read about this wonderful piece of glass from c.1680
http://wb.britishmuseum.org/MCN138#1489945001
There are a small number of versions of this piece, a couple are crizzled the others not as far as I read.
m
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Thanks m been a great help. I'll definitely have a read.
Yes I had a quick scan and a lot of museum pieces seem to suffer from crizzling interesting.
I had another look at the glass and it's not splinters it's actually aklaine deposits so I'll give it a delicate wash tomorrow.
Well I'm glad it's revived an interest. Not often you come across pieces like this.
But I think your original thinking Czech is spot on. I think can def rule out baccarat.
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No not all Venetian glass but it seems quite common in early pieces.
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there is I think some explanation here on page 10 of why there was crizzling in opaline glass
http://www.glas-forschung.info/pageone/pdf/farbglas.pdf
It is in the right hand column of text.
m
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The uranium is the date restricter, so I doubt your stand is earlier than 1860ish, so as I said late 1800s
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Hi Christine
Bohemian glass contained uranium from 1830 although it was being experimented with pre 1790 and baccarat followed suite in 1843.
Uuranium glass has been traced back as far as 79AD.
So it would be difficult to say uranium was used post 1860.
That's what makes glass so interesting you just never know.
All best Chris
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Maybe but not in cloudy green. It was first used mostly as a canary yellow colorant. Green and amber came later. It was also extremely expensive until large uranium deposits were discovered in the USA in the 1880s. Roman glass deliberately containing uranium is also rather suspect. There has only ever been one sample found and that has only been tested once. Other Roman glass colorants have persisted throughout history. Uranium oxide wasn't discovered until 1789. Wanting it to be early does not make it so. I collect uranium glass and wouldn't claim to have anything earlier than mid 1850s and that is in canary flint
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Very subjective we can only go by what we read, but that's not always accurate if at all in some cases. The green on this piece is more of a pastel green similar to the early yellow more transparent as opposed to a solid colour.
Not saying my piece is exceptionaly early but thinking about it if it sits around 1860 means it is 150+ years old. I think in my book that's old and lucky to survive intact.
Then if you read apparently uranium was ceased pre/ just post WW2. But I have had pieces of Bohemian glass circa 1970s which contain uranium. So it makes you think! Where are people getting there information from. Books tell you or give you an idea who made the glass but the actual chemistry used to produce the glass is rather lacking.
Still all intetesting stuff.
Cheers Chris
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Das Bohmische Glas Band III pp 53,illustration III.51
a trumpet vase with a remarkably similar 'pineapple' knop in the stem. Along with a remarkably similar gilding bands decoration and foot. It also has a dark blue snake on it. But it is so similar in design elements I would say that it is very possible your vase came from Neuwelt.
The vase in the book is 'Alabasterglas',which means it is white opaline as a description of what it looks like. The snake is cobalt blue.
There is no green on this one but the date is 1855-1860.
There are two further Neuwelt green vases on page 55. They are dated c.1860. But they are very different in design.
Two pieces in white and green opaline from Schachtenbach on pp161 dated c.1860.
m
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Blimey m I'll have a look is it in English unable to read German ha.
Cheers Chris
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It's in German.
Not available to view on the net but the book is available to buy I guess.
m
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Yes quite an expensive book m.
Have a look at the art work on this vase. The condition is exceptional there is hardly any rubbing whatsoever.
I think you'll like it.
Chris
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I think some uranium stocks were confiscated in the 1940s and there may have been a short period when little or no uranium glass was produced, but then little coloured glass of any sort was produced anywhere during WW2 because of lack of access to colorants and luxury goods tax reasons. I have uranium glass from about 1850 right through to 2017, but I would say nothing from the 1940s
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I bet you would like my piece of orrefors by Nils Landberg designed 1940 for American market but never exported because of WW2. The foot is unique as it was redesigned so pretty rare. The foot is Smokey grey/amber and is full of uranium. I'll post couple pics later.
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Here we go hope you like it.
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Nice ;D
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Just thought I'd leave this here in case this comes up in future:
From Glas wolf, an opaline uranium glass becher apparently dating to c1835 Biedermeier period.
https://www.glaswolf.de/Biedermeier_Becher_U.281+B6YmFja1BJRD0yODEmcHJvZHVjdElEPTIyNTUmcGlkX3Byb2R1Y3Q9MjgxJmRldGFpbD0_.0.html
'Biedermeier Beaker Uranium Glass
u238
A footed beaker. Uranium glass, Neuwelt circa 1835. Annagreen chrysoprasglass. Scalloped foot. Bowl with high cut ornaments of leaves and silver painted scrolls. Inverted rim. Gilding rubbed. Height 14 cm / 5,5 inch.'
Another one here dating to c.1840 from the same source.
https://www.glaswolf.de/Biedermeier_Becher_U.281+B6YmFja1BJRD0yODEmTD0xJnByb2R1Y3RJRD0yMjU0JnBpZF9wcm9kdWN0PTI4MSZkZXRhaWw9.0.html
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see above post.
Also in reading the book Farbenglas I by Waltraud Neuwirth on page 279 and 280 the writing under the Heading 'Chrysoprase Composition' is all about green glass ranging from 1831 to 1857.
After describing many glass items in green made between those dates it continues in the same paragraph:
'Without exception, contemporary glass batches (chiefly opacified glass) contain uranium, mostly in the form of uranium oxide'.
There is no doubt from the way that sentence is written that it is referring to the glass dated of that period and discussed in the same paragraph in the wording directly preceding that sentence.
I am not suggesting for one moment that the OP's item was not made c.1860.
The style and design is similar to items dating around that date.
But according to my books there was uranium opaline glass produced in Bohemian in the 1830s and 1840s.
Having looked around, the foot and stem and the gilding design have some similarities with this set c1840 apparently from Theresienthal/Bayerische Wald. It might be worth looking into a little further as a potential for the maker.
https://www.antiquitaeten-schlemmer.de/glas/assets/glas-dessertservice_gr1.jpg
scroll down to see the set
https://www.antiquitaeten-schlemmer.de/glas/glas-19-farbglas.htm#objekt3
m
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This is a report written in 1843 and published in the Mechanics Magazine in 1845. The whole report is published in that link but you have to skip from section to section as it is published in a sector format and so has 'to be contd.' at the end of each of the previous issues.
On page 427 starting near the bottom of the left hand column
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=p9pQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA427&dq=bohemian+opaline+glass&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi29bbN-4TkAhUymVwKHY19AEAQ6AEIMjAC#v=onepage&q=bohemian%20opaline%20glass&f=false
1843 - :
'A great quantity of opaline glass-coloured green, is also manufactured in Bohemia: formerly it was prepared by adding to colourless glass a certain quantity of calcined bone powder, yellow oxide of uranium and oxide of iron (finery cinder).
This colour is altered after long exposure to solar light. For some years past it has been replaced at Winterberg and Silberberg, by a more beautiful colour, due to calcined bone powder, yellow oxide of uranium and oxide of nickel. ...'
I believe this is describing green uranium opaline glass.
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Your vase is definitely Bohemian and was exhibited at the New York Exhibition in 1853-1854.
It was exhibited with the name E. Stainer attached to it. The description says it came under the Austrian Department and 'They are also of the celebrated glass of Bohemia, and possess it's general characters.'
See page 109 of attached Exhibition catalogue. The bottom right illustration, left hand item is your exact vase :) :
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_World_of_Science_Art_and_Industry_Il/Zjk_AAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=hock+glass+1837&pg=PA220&printsec=frontcover
https://books.google.co.uk/books/content?id=Zjk_AAAAcAAJ&pg=RA1-PA109&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&bul=1&sig=ACfU3U0eZQYs0GprEKefoXRBmzqlTqqKpw&w=1025
According to page 193 of this link E. Stainer was an importer:
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Official_Catalogue_of_the_New_York_Exhib/X8uz6Iebr4sC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=E.+Stainer+bohemia+glass&pg=PA193&printsec=frontcover