Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: thewingedsphinx on October 02, 2018, 03:37:49 PM
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Here is a lovely slag spooner or marmalade pot Possibly Davidson catalogue 157 or 195 unfortunately my pgcc pamphlet does show quite the detail, any opinions welcome as I cannot find any pictures of these patterns.looks a bit like Ivy with a small flower? Cheers Mike
Fred, I’m hoping you may have done better references?
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Fred my spellcheck got it wrong as it should say “some” better references.
Thanks Mike
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Mike, I don't think that I have ever seen a piece similar to this before. Does it have the Davidson demi-lion trademark?
Those horizontal 'hoops' or bands bordering the floral design are certainly reminiscent of the stylised horizontal straw bands depicted on many straw bee skeps modelled as pressed glass honey pots, but there don't seem to be any catalogued Davidson honey or marmalade pots matching your pot.
Unfortunately, I don't have any photo references for actual items in Davidson's
157 or 195 patterns.
The 157 sugar and cream illustration in the Davidson catalogues of unregistered designs shows an ivy decoration without any sign of flowers or berries.
The 195 covered butter certainly has a flower and leaf decoration, but the pattern looks far more delicate than that on your pot (though that may simply be a matter of scale).
Fred.
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Fred, thanks very much for your time, I’ve not been able to find a makers mark. Our PGCC Davidson phamplet for 1878-88 only shows some patterns,have you any idea how many patterns they churned out in this timeframe?
I wasn’t sure about the references I have given, as it’s difficult to see the detail in small pictures.
Thanks again Mike
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The Davidson catalogues of unregistered designs 1880-1890 showed the following different patterns by category:
Frames & Cruets 3; Celeries 26; Jellies & Sweetmeats 36; Jugs 4; Match Stands 4; Cheese Stand 1; Mustards 9; Piano Stands 4; Pickles 3; Honies & Marmalades 5; Egg Cups 4; Flower Pot 1; Cans 12; Candlesticks 8; Tumblers 125; Sugars & Creams; 83; Sugars & Covers 63; Salvers 50; Comports 1; Centres & Stands 15; Butters 31; Butter Middles for Platters 4; Dishes - round 45; Pin or Cigar Ashtrays; Plates or Bowls 35; Salts 50.
There was, however, some duplication when categorised puurely by pattern number because, for example, the same decorative pattern number may appear on a sugar, creamer, butter, celery, dish, plate etc. etc... , and the pattern numbers run from 1 through to 500, with the tumblers alone running from 1 to 160 (though the bulk of the other pattern numbers are in the 100s or 200s).
Fred.
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Crikey thanks Fred for the explanation,no wonder my folks didn’t get them all :-\
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I think this maybe Greener rd 383640 1882, evidently the spooner also comes with a lid which has the Greener lion mark. I sold mine to a chap from the National glass fair. I recently picked up this very rare biscuit barrel of the same patter. It has a tiny reg number near the finial but is not readable.
There are some other piece on this site and the foliage looks the same. Does any one have any drawing illustrations? Cheers Mike
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Rd. 383640 from 19th July 1882 looks to be a band of floral decoration - ferns and other related looking things within arched panels - certainly not Registering a barrel shape - but it is Henry Greener.
Mike - what made you suggest this No. for the marmalade pot?
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Hi Paul, if you search 383640 in the search field you will find an old post. The plate has some foliage themes and one appears to have the same leaves and flowers as the pot and the barrel plus there is another thread with a slag plate with the same foliage. I’ve spent ages trying the read the number on the barrel which finishes with an “0” hopefully I’ll have another go tomorrow. Have you any drawings of this rd. cheers Mike
I will add some better pictures later.
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Mike - I've looked at the Board's archive images for Henry Greener Rd. 383640, and they all appear to agree with TNA image I've now attached, which was a design Registration for decoration rather than a shape - you can see that the original factory drawing shows a series of conjoined arched panels each showing variety of plant leaves or whatever.
Compared to the floral pictures on your marmalade barrel they are finer in detail - but leave it to you to make a comparison of the two, and see what you think.
Sorry the Kew image is very poor - taken before I got the hang of snapping these very old shiny factory photographs - I can take a better picture but not for a couple of weeks or thereabouts.
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Paul, thanks very much for showing that. Neither of these two have that decorative outline pattern. But the foliage does have some similarities I will post some better pictures hopefully this evening.
I think we're getting close. I can't find much more on this registration.
It may take me a couple of weeks to decipher the number on the lid.
Thanks
Mike
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Mike - believe you were missing the lid to the purple marbled 'marmalade' - the piece you sold at the glass fair - so how do we know for certain that its original lid did have a Greener lion mark - is it just by comparison perhaps - because your clear glass 'very rare biscuit barrel of the same pattern' does have a lion mark on its lid?
Of course, two different shapes, but identical patterns, would be expected to have the same trade mark, but life always throws up exceptions to the rules.
putting brain in gear, the blindingly obvious now occurs to me ...………….. a Registration from July 1882 would not appear on the glass as a straightforward digit number, since 1882 was the last but one full year of lozenges. So if you have simply the No. 383640 on your glass, then we have a problem and on the face of it 383640 cannot refer to the design of this marmalade/spooner and biscuit barrel. Your thoughts please. :)
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Hi Paul,
The chap who bought my pot already has another with a lid and that lid has a Greener trademark the pots come in different sizes.He had a good lid but poor pot so he wanted mine.
The point in your last paragraph is a very good point so I will go back to the drawing board and try to decipher the number again. Thanks for explaining all that out.
I’m hoping to hear more from the pot man later. Cheers Mike
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thanks Mike - wait to see if there's any other suggestion for the Reg. No. on your biscuit barrel.
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Here is a purple slag one, listed as Davidson but no lid. They have a couple of sizes listed.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-25-Davidson-Purple-Slag-Barrel-Vase-Jar-Antique-Large-English/143193135783?hash=item2156f9daa7:g:tzwAAOSwb15b-1Op
So I'm still guessing, think I need a better magnifying glass.
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I can make out a couple of zero’s and in another view find a 2. Could Greener have registered more than one pattern under a registration number? Rd 182002 ? there is a different biscuit barrel with that reg no. In the gallery.
Forever hopeful Mike
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Dear hopeful of the GMB....
back in 2007 Bernard Cavelot posted a Henry Greener canary yellow u. toothpick holder tumbler under Rd. 182002 - having now looked at that piece Mike, I don't see any connection with your glass, and although 'suites' could be quite large in terms of variety of shapes, I don't see 182002 - dated 20th October 1891, being anything related to yours. Bernard's item shows a simple pressed grid pattern possibly imitating cut glass - is this the pattern on the biscuit barrel you've been looking at?
I get the impression that in the C19, manufacturers were more conscious of one Registration for one shape or one design (this did allow for multiple shapes, but each carrying identical design) - I don't think there would have ever been a single Rd. No. covering more than one design.
Unfortunately, I don't have any Kew pix for 182002, but will try to remember to look at a later date.