Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: laurapmccracken on December 03, 2018, 01:12:10 PM
-
Purchased this vase over the weekend and am trying to narrow down the glass house. I feel it is in the style of Prof. Max Rade by Fritz Heckert but I have also looked at Novy Bor (Karl Pohl) whom seller felt it was attributed to. It is approx. 8.25" and marked with a red 5 underside. Thank you for any kind assistance!
-
Hi Laura, welcome to the board.
I have moved your topic to the Glassforum as that is where ID requests belong until a form ID is made, when a moderator will move it to another forum.
-
Hi, the shape and gilding on the neck also reminds me of a Mont Joye or a Legras vase in style.
Also the color and style of the lavender pink flowers.
French might be worth looking into?
Can we please see a very clear photograph of the base. Thanks
m
-
I'm not too sure about french …
-
this one says it is Mont Joye (no comment in the sale blurb on whether it is marked though !) but it is the shape I was thinking of?
https://www.cottoneauctions.com/lots/36943/mont-joye-vase-with-painted-enameled-chrysanthemums
this advert shows the shape,or similar in the Legras book possibly?
https://www.tweedehands.nl/antiek-kunst/antiek/glaswerk-kristal/antieke-art-nouveau-montjoye-legras-320403407.html
-
Nothing like this in the Heckert book by F. Zelasco.
-
this one says it is Mont Joye (no comment in the sale blurb on whether it is marked though !) but it is the shape I was thinking of?
https://www.cottoneauctions.com/lots/36943/mont-joye-vase-with-painted-enameled-chrysanthemums
this advert shows the shape,or similar in the Legras book possibly?
https://www.tweedehands.nl/antiek-kunst/antiek/glaswerk-kristal/antieke-art-nouveau-montjoye-legras-320403407.html
Both vases are made by Legras and are the same model, vase 'Olga'.
Just for the occasion …. It's a bit confusing but Legras was absorbed by Souchon-Neuvesel and they were part of the 'Verreries de Saint-Denis et de Pantin réunis'.
Auguste Heilgenstein collaborated between 1926 and 1931 with S-N and created a series of thick glass items, often coloured with enamel powders and acid cut. A small production, rarely signed by his own name (Heiligenstein) that was given the name 'Montjoye et SD', signed often by diamond point or gold paint.
Montjoye often does use long petaled chrysanthemums in their decor, much more than Legras, but in both cases the enamel is much thicker. The enamel of the vase in question is much thinner. Landscapes at either production are very often acid cut or transfer printed before applying enamel powders (Delft series).
Of course the decor of the vase in question is completely different, but i'm only trying to point out the difference of the enamel and in any case, this shape is not unique to either Legras or Montjoye. The gilding on the rim at Legras and Montjoye is always powdered (putoisé) which clearly here, is not the case.
Having said all of that, I couldn't tell who has made this vase. I only have a few examples of Heckert in Das Böhmische Glas, and the decor on the vase in question looks a bit less 'neat'.
-
I have sold a couple pieces of Mont Joye and do not feel this is one of those. Seems Bohemian/German and not French. I just stumbled across this post and while it isn't the same decor, I feel it is quite similar.
https://www.ebay.de/itm/Fritz-HECKERT-Jugendstil-Glas-Vase-Max-Rade-Emailmalerei-art-nouveau-glass/382501620049?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20140107083420%26meid%3D7f384fa81ce64ba2afcfbcc21d61beaa%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D11%26sd%3D302682628991%26itm%3D382501620049&_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850 (https://www.ebay.de/itm/Fritz-HECKERT-Jugendstil-Glas-Vase-Max-Rade-Emailmalerei-art-nouveau-glass/382501620049?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20140107083420%26meid%3D7f384fa81ce64ba2afcfbcc21d61beaa%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D11%26sd%3D302682628991%26itm%3D382501620049&_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850)
-
What is the pontil mark like btw? just curious to know.
Thanks
m
-
Not that I have much experience with this type of glass but when I saw this I instantly thought Legras because of gilding and glass . I've only ever had a couple of legras pieces though so I could be wrong, sure the items I had both had numbers painted on base too.
-
the items I had both had numbers painted on base too.
That's unusual, 9 out of 10 are not numbered.
-
Anne thank you for the additional information :)
Do we know which other makers made this shape please?
The decor may not be a way to decide who made the vase. Could it be possible that different enamellers painted in different ways on say for example, Legras glass vases? Could it perhaps be possible that techniques may change depending on decorator/period maybe?
I understand what you mean about the gilding on the rim. Would that be a definitive no to it being from Legras then?
Legras made a lot of glass. Maybe it wasn't decorated in France?
Likewise in Bohemian glass, there are many examples of Harrach making the glass but the decoration being done elsewhere.
Also examples of other Bohemian makers making the glass but the decoration having been carried out by another finishing house (i.e. not by the glassmaker - Loetz is one example)
I wonder how the base is finished?
-
oh and. ... along with my questions above, can I also add another :-[
on the link the OP provided to this vase it doesn't seem to say it is marked. Or have I missed something? If it is not marked I wonder how they know it is a Fritz Heckert Max Rade vase?
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,67549.msg376333.html#msg376333
Did I miss something in the translation maybe?
m
-
Anne thank you for the additional information :)
Do we know which other makers made this shape please?
The decor may not be a way to decide who made the vase. Could it be possible that different enamellers painted in different ways on say for example, Legras glass vases? Could it perhaps be possible that techniques may change depending on decorator/period maybe?
I understand what you mean about the gilding on the rim. Would that be a definitive no to it being from Legras then?
Legras made a lot of glass. Maybe it wasn't decorated in France?
Likewise in Bohemian glass, there are many examples of Harrach making the glass but the decoration being done elsewhere.
Also examples of other Bohemian makers making the glass but the decoration having been carried out by another finishing house (i.e. not by the glassmaker - Loetz is one example)
I wonder how the base is finished?
Sorry to quote such a large post but several things are mentioned.
Personally, and this is just me, i think that a decor often is a signature in itself. If the shape's familiar but the quality or usual style is not there, then it might make one wonder what's going on. Of course shapes and styles do look familiar and we can all recognise a shape or tell if a piece, shapewise, has been meddled with somehow, but on the other hand, we've never seen everything that's out there...i guess it's a topic that can be discussed endlessly. I can't tell you of this shape is used elsewhere, it probably is as it isn't a very complicated one but i couldn't give any examples right now.
Re the french outsourcing something … I wonder if anything would have been considered good enough, and I don't mean this in a nasty way, but the french are just … well, very french, lets keep it at that. I would need to do some reading to see if anything's mentioned, but there were so many decorators in France that bought blancs at their usual adresses, Legras being a supplier too, and I wonder if there would have been a need to go abroad, but you would expect to find at least a signature if it was from an individual decorator.
Going through some books I find that the enamel on this vase is so thin, it almost looks painted and looks similar to some of the decors found in Germany, done by different houses, but i'm going into, still, unfamiliar territory now ...
-
I will get some photos of the pontil when I pick up the piece tomorrow. As I recall it was a polished pontil. I do not believe the decor on the vase to be French. Thanks to everyone taking the time to respond. I appreciate it!
-
Photo of pontil
-
Just wanted to update that the vase has been attributed to designer Adolf Heymen - Passau considers the work to be rare. Below is a vase with similar decor from Passau.
-
Thank you for coming back and letting us know this has been attributed to Adolf Heyden. I believe that is the enamelling decoration has been attributed to Adolf Heyden? Did the Passau Museum clarify this any further re who made the glass of your vase?
The photograph of the book is difficult to see as it pixelates when enlarged but the enamelling picture certainly looks very similar.
I'm curious to know who might have made the glass because the book photo you have added dates the piece to c. 1880.
As far as I knew Heckert didn't start with their furnace until 1889:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,50483.msg288408.html#msg288408
See also info from Wikipedia (not a primary source of info admittedly - my bold underlining)
'Life
Fritz Heckert was born in 1837 as the eighth son of the master glazier Johann Andreas Heckert (1789-1852) in Halle an der Saale. Of the nine siblings, seven worked in the glass industry. After the death of his father he went to Berlin to his brother Carl Ferdinand at the age of 15. There he learned the trade of a merchant and designated himself from 1863 as a manufacturer. In 1862 he acquired a glass grinding mill, the so-called Felsenmühle am Zacken near Petersdorf on the edge of the Giant Mountains ; In 1866 he founded his glass refinery in Petersdorf, which he could expand to a major glass refining company with at times 200 employees, which also had a glassworks from 1889 onwards. Fritz Heckert died in 1887'
If that is the case then I wonder where the glass came from if it was enamelled by Adolf Heyden c 1880?
The vase in the photo you have added also reminds me of a French glass shape oddly but I wonder if it might have come from Josephinenhutte to then be enamelled and finished at Heckert i.e. before they got their furnace?
m
-
Happy New Year Flyingfree…...I was the one who thought possibly Fritz Heckert/Max Rade but a fellow glassy contacted me and sent me the page from the Passau catalog which indicated the décor by the designer. Still don't know who made the vase but it certainly could be a French blank.
-
Legras did do blancs but I wonder if this would not have been too expensive at the time, considering they had so many manufacturers closer to home.
-
I do think I have read or heard that it might have gone the other way Anne admittedly (Bohemian to France).
I've wracked my brains but in my memory I can only come up with Legras for that shape, which is irritating.
However if there was another maker I wonder why it's not more prevalent on the net somewhere?
I'm just thinking that if Fritz Heckert did make it, then where are the other examples with different enamelling on them if you see what i mean?
m