Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Anne on April 26, 2019, 07:02:04 PM
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I picked up a decanter with a registered design number on it today, RD 860410, which dates from 1949 according to the National Archives. As it's beyond the scope of the Great Glass listing and the Blue Book I'm stumped currently as to its maker, but on the base along with the RD no are 640 and LHI. Does anyone know who LHI were please, I can't see any glassmaker in Ivo's book under L that could be them, nor any in the 1951 Directory for the British Glass Industry in 1951.
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Two more pics showing the stopper pattern and shape. It's hollow and open at the bottom. No tie numbers.
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My guess would be that this was produced by one of the bottle-works as a product container.
L H I contenders.
Liddle, Henzel & Co Newcastle Upon Tyne (1933 PG annual)
H L & H Israel, Wholesaler London (1950 PG annual)
Lowenstein & Hecht, Wholesaler London (1950 PG annual)
So probably not the makers initials. Could be the commissioner or product maker.
Height & liquid capacity?
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Thanks Frank, some ideas to check out there.
The capacity is 800ml to the top of the swirled part, height 30cm (inc stopper), base width 10cm.
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I know we've had a few Registered designs posted previously, for pressed items - they tend to be around this period - and I think we've usually been able to find an id for most if not all. Don't recall that I've ever seen a pressed bottle with matching Nos., but stand to be corrected.
In my humble opinion open ended stoppers must be found very rarely on pressed bottles - I've only ever seen them on cut examples. I recall jp providing some information on such things - I forget now what he said as it was a few years back
was it that they were intended to provide for a small swig of the contents if you were missing a drinking glass?
Don't know when I shall be at Kew next - you may have to wait for a few weeks Anne. Assume this one hasn't occurred on the Board's archive previously?
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That is an odd size so I would say not used for fluids, stopper would confirm that. My guess would be bath salts or similar. To big for sweets I think.
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Paul, thank you, there's no rush. It can rest safely on a shelf with others until we learn more about it. :) It's not been on the board previously nor on the GlassGallery.
Frank, the neck is too narrow for bath salts or sweets, it's a wine bottle sized neck, and takes a standard kitchen funnel to fill it. Most of the bath salts ones I've see have plastic stoppers with wider openings, this one doesn't have that - it's an open base to the stopper. It's around the same size as the Cottle decanters, which I thought it might be when I saw it, only to get home and realise it was way too late for Cottle whose registrations are all pre-WW2. I did wonder if it's another one of the Bagley designs made to order so not catalogued, like the recently discovered White and Mackay one. I'll drop Angela a line with pics too and see what she thinks.
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Have now visited TNA, and have pix and Registrant details for 860410 - plus, unexpectedly, further information and photos relating to variations on the same design and from the same Registrant - I hope to post within next 24 hours.
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Brilliant, thank you Paul. I await your findings with great anticipation. :)
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John Lumb of Castleford., Yorks. is a name about which I know nothing, so will leave to others to provide some background information - I could be wrong, but suspect they were agents/wholesalers only and not manufacturers. No idea if they have ever cropped up on the pressed section here previously.
Reg. 860410 was first applied for on 18th November 1949, though for whatever reason this wasn't effected by the Board of Trade until 17th of April 1950, and a similar delay occurred again on two more of Lumb's subsequent applications which the company made on 19th December 1949 -for the same design of bottle - but with slight variations in decoration.
The basic design of bottle shows geometric spiralling around the neck and lower portions of the bottle with a midriff showing some sort of regular pattern, and it's this central band that varies in Lumb's slightly later Registrations .............. perhaps they found the first design sufficiently successful that it encouraged them to knock out a couple more - who knows.
Quite why the CLASS is blank I've no idea - usually Registrants confuse matters by entering the wrong one - or perhaps it's their agent that's responsible. The description of this Registration is rather long winded, though for the subsequent two they shortened this to Decanter.
The final picture here showing wording connecting all three Registrations, was found on the back of one of the sheets for this Archive item - not entirely sure I follow the sense so hope others do, though think I get the gist.
This reply shows pix for 860410 only, with pix for two further separate Registrations in the following reply. I don't recall seeing any of Lumb's bottles in my travels, but maybe I've forgotten.
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pix now for Lumb's slightly later take on the same bottle. Reg. 860734 show a middle band of spiralling graduated relief diamonds, and 860735 shows fan splits/star burst variation on the band.
Both these Registrations were applied for on 19th December 1949 with the aforementioned delay resulting in acceptance by the B.o.T on 17th April the following year.
Picture of the Register page is also attached.
Kew National Archive references are
For the Register
. BT 53/86 for all three items.
for the Representations
. BT 52/2447 for Reg. 860410 and BT 52/2449 for Regs. 860734/35
It's very unlikely that I shall have the need to visit Kew again - it would be good to think there might be someone within 30 - 40 miles of London who would be prepared to continue these occasional searches for the Board, though I suspect not. TNA is a massive and priceless resource for all things and a visit is very worth while.
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Paul, thank you so much for all of this, it's fabulous, I'm extremely grateful to you for looking it up for me. :-*
Lumb's at Castleford were glassmakers, they were one of the biggest glass bottle works in Yorkshire (my hubbie was born and raised at Castleford so he remembers them well and this is our first piece of Lumb's glass).
We have a couple of earlier mentions of them in unrelated topics from where we learn they became part of United Glass Limited
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,40454.msg252822.html#msg252822 (https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,40454.msg252822.html#msg252822) and https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,42941.msg239433.html#msg239433 (https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,42941.msg239433.html#msg239433)
Meanwhile the Grace's Guide (https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/1951_Directory_for_the_British_Glass_Industry:_Companies_L) entry for Lumb's is as follows
1951 Directory for the British Glass Industry: Companies L
LUMB (JOHN) & CO. LTD. Head Office: 8 LEICESTER STREET, LONDON, W.C.2. T.A., " Unglaboman, Lesquare, London". T.N., GERrard 8611. Works: CASTLEFORD, YORKS. T.A., "Lumb, Phone, Castleford". T.N., Castleford 2811/4 (4 lines). London Office: IBEX HOUSE, THE MINORIES, E.C.3. T.A., "Jolumglass, Phone, London". T.N., ROYal 3793. Established 1842. Three tank furnaces: coal. Bottles and jars of every kind. Directors: W. Morris (Managing); E. A. S. Alexander; J. S. Cannington; H. W. Howes; H. St. John Judd; W. Reid. Secretary: H. Dickinson.
More of Lumb's decanters shown here: http://www.omnia.ie/index.php?europeana_query=Lumb%27s&navigation_function=3 (http://www.omnia.ie/index.php?europeana_query=Lumb%27s&navigation_function=3)
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Came across this while researching something else so I thought id try and end the story
John Lumb & Co Ltd Albion Street Castleford
(later United Glass Ltd)
Glass bottle manufacturers 1845-1983
John Lumb and Company was one of three glassworks started by Lumb, Simpson, Brown, Lightfoot and Thomas and William Sykes. In 1950 one thousand people were employed on the site. As 'United Glass', manufacturing glass containers, the company closed in 1983 under a rationalisation scheme and the chimneys were demolished in 1985.
It is commonly accepted that the Roman name for Castleford was Lagentium. It is believed that this translates as "The Place of the Bottles", from the Latin 'lagenae' (bottles or flasks).