Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Greg. on June 22, 2019, 04:55:27 PM
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Hi All,
Possibly a trick one to attribute!
Tall heavily cut glass vase in cranberry which has been cut to clear.
Star cut base with plenty of age related wear.
Height: 30.5cm
Diameter across base: 10.2cm
Fairly Heavy weight: 1.8kg
All thoughts most welcome.
Greg
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I'll play Greg.......
It didn't scream Czech to me......some of the cutting seemed a little "restrained". If it were mine, I would be starting with American Brilliant......something about the fan cutting into the shape of the rim rings a bell.
Had to laugh.....timer went off for my dinner just as I wrote the last bit. Will give it more thought over food.
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Thanks for taking a look Cat and your initial thoughts.
Food for thought is always good.
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Still pondering over VSL, circa 1900.
Seen this rim finish on a few others around this period, with similarish cutting although no exact match so far...
One other observation, the colour looked cranberry early, although looking at it in the light now has a deep purple tint. Will have a closer look at the colour in better daylight tomorrow.
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Glad you mentioned colour......I saw a more pale amethyst, rather than cranberry, but it's always hard to tell from pictures as it could just be my tablet's interpretation.
Is it OK to ask what country you found it in?
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Having slept on it......how about Dorflinger? I can see elements of your piece in this example
https://www.treadwaygallery.com/lotInfo.php?i=6016
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Thank you Cat for that lead I will investigate further, much appreciated. :)
The vase was purchased in the UK.
You are right about the colour, looking again today its definitely a purple/amethyst colour.
For the time being, just to also throw a few VSL examples in the mix. Will keep searching.....
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/510525307744547297/
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/510525307743454781/
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/510525307739871415/
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Well you did say it was a tricky one......I hadn't seen the last two.......I can see elements in yours. I'm really enjoying this......look forward to the next instalment!
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Shape wise I'd say VSL is a possibility, some elements are familiar in this pattern but unfortunately I haven't found the exact pattern yet. Some of the Dorflinger designs are very similar and some are misattributed because they are VSL in fact. Usually colour and quality and proof of registered patterns are give-always, as you can imagine.
What the colour concerns, if it is a more purple colour than it could be 'violet-évêque' or cardinal purple but indeed, it looks more red on your pictures. Have a look on Pinterest for this colour, i use the french name and have several examples of different periods.
Did you take these pictures with a phone please? Some of the cutting looks not very symmetric to me, which made me doubt about VSL but images with phones can deform these details.
I need to have another look to see what i can find.
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Hi Anne, thank you for taking a look its much appreciated.
My photos were taken with a digital camera.
I have taken a new batch of photos outside in the natural light, hopefully these show the true colour a little better.
I have also taken a few others to show the cutting, some of the cuts are not completely symmetrical.
Hope the below images help.
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4 close ups photos of the cutting....
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Apologies, the last few images seem to have uploaded the wrong way round. Just getting to grips with new software!
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They turn themselves around when you tap on them......very clever!
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Difficult …
Colour wise I'd say it is close to the cardinal purple used by VSL but it is not exactly it, but God knows what they did at the time. I'm just reading up on some info and it is mentioned that because of the choice available ( for instance 9 different sizes in 5 different colours = 45 variations), a lot was not even catalogued. At this time and just for figures, around 1900 they produced 160.000 pieces per day and as many were distributed every day so it's possible that a vase like yours is not listed. I just bought myself a vase from 1923 that I haven't even got an image of, just to say.
Having said that, especially the first one of your second lot of images, right here at the top of this page, can be found in other designs and some of the other ones as well. I have a bit of documentation but not everything I'm sure you can imagine.
Of course i haven't got Dorflinger catalogues but reading it now, it is mentioned (Corning) that certain designs are exactly the same or inspired by one or the other. Who copied who? I can't say unfortunately.
Quality wise of the cutting, of course at VSL nothing was perfect either and some pieces I have seen were not completely symmetric but less than the design on your vase.
I can't say definately one or the other for now, but i'll continue looking and comparing.
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Just another question … is your vase heavy?
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Thanks for your efforts Anne, it sounds like quite a conundrum this one!
I must say, 160,000 pieces per day is some output, how things have changed.
Regarding the colour, I had a look online as you suggested and my initial thought was the same as yours, the colour looks close to cardinal purple but not quite an exact match. Its a tricky one to compare due to the differing thicknesses of vases online.
The vase is heavy at 1.8kg.
I did send an email to a Dorflinger expert in the States the other day, if I here back I will certainly update this thread.
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Just in the meantime, the image I mentioned on top of this page … I haven't found a catalogue image that shows it well enough. I remember seeing it on an small ice bucket from this period and low and behold, I found one for sale and it is in the same colour as your vase.
The second image you have posted is at VSL called 'cathedral cut', the third 'taille grains-de-sable' or sand cut, i remember Paul mentioning that this is called strawberry cut in English. The last two can be found at different manufacturers though and wouldn't be that specific.
The second and third image in the link show it, the first image on top of this page, well enough I guess.
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/352699239403 (https://www.ebay.fr/itm/352699239403)
Again, the shape can be found at VSL with the rim 'festonné' but again, this is not exclusive to VSL. I'm still a bit puzzled about the finish and quality for this period, I would have expected something a little bit more refined, but I guess we have all moments when certain standards slip. The 'palmettes' or fans also for example, at the top and bottom of your vase, finish at different angles and lengths (in relation to the rim at the top and the base), especially at the base. Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying it is a very bad example, it's just these small details that I find important and that can make all the difference. It could be an apprentice piece that was not supposed to be put up for sale and leave the factory but as you can imagine, with 4000-5000 employees at the time, things tended to disappear every now and then.
Just for arguments sake, I have added an image of this shape with a different pattern, available in different sizes.
Edit : I did find a catalogue image of your first detailed picture on this page. Even though it is more square and not as elongated on the ice bucket, there's less space to work at of course, than on your vase.
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Thanks Anne. – The small VSL ice bucket is a great spot. The colour and also the cut you reference in pictures 2 and 3 of the ebay item look spot on in comparison.
There seems to be quite a lot that’s indicative of VSL production.
I do note your comments regarding the precision of some of the cutting on my example, with nearly all of the VSL that I have owned the cutting has been of a very high quality in terms of its precision/symmetry etc. My example is a little bit of an oddity in that respect, I wonder if it was a piece that slipped through the net or just happened to go ‘astray’.
Thanks for adding the two catalogue images showing the shape and related cuts, its nice to have them in this thread for reference.
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I don't know what the policy at the time was Greg, I can remember reading that at some point, articles that were not up to standard, were destroyed or recycled somehow. This is pre 30's but I couldn't give you an exact date. In the 30ies only items that met standards were marked with the round acid mark, anything not good enough wasn't signed. Later on they were altered and sold as 'unique pieces' because the final result was different from the registered pattern. If I'm not mistaken it was the 80's that B productions were marked 'Val Diffusion' and today they're marked with a small S which stands for Sale.
The quality we've discussed here was simply to help attributing it, it is a nice size vase and looks in good condition. If you're happy with your purchase then nothing else matters, I guess.
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Thanks Anne for all your help and info, its much appreciated.