Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: catshome on August 16, 2019, 07:47:20 PM
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I have been following some of the threads on opaline glass, but didn't have any in my collection. Early for an appointment Today, I was killing time and trying to stay out of the rain and I saw this and was very tempted to buy it, but I'm not supposed to be buying - am supposed to be reducing. I took some embarrassingly bad pictures on phone so that I could do a bit of research, just for fun. Now I'm thinking I should go back tomorrow.......
Approx. 7" high X 3" rim diameter. Did I get it right.....opaline? It looks white, but it has a pale bluey grey tone to it. I thought, at the time, maybe it should have had a cover, but I keep thinking about the rim, which was flat and gilded, with possibly a slight bevel to the inner edge.
Eight panels and an eight petal base, which is quite chunky, not quite flat. Good age appropriate wear to very flat base rim around a minimally concave polished base.
The reason I think I should have bought it is that I haven't found any opaline glass with lettering on it. I did take shots of all eight letters, but I can't remember what the order was on the piece. They look like EML KUL and two that I can't decipher . The enamel flowers look hand painted.
Should I be camping outside the shop tonight? Worse still, I didn't buy what appears from my research to be a 10" ribbed barovier & toso vase. I just wasn't sure as the gold in the clear looked like sand, and was completely random in the ribs.
Hoping to be wrong
Cat
I really am so sorry about the pictures but I am struggling to transfer them from the phone to the iPad and then get them onto the GMB. I will keep trying!
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After an hour on the live chat with Romeo at BT, I have the promise of a new Hub. Finally given up trying to transfer photos from phone or ipad to laptop. Even sent them to son Pete and he emailed them to me, and that didn't work either. So I have taken photographs of the ipad images......which really just compounds the awfulness of the camera pics, but I am desperate to put them on tonight.
So here they are... hopefully.....and with profuse apologies.
I see it has cropped the top of the image. There are about four rows of the gilding. The banded part of the top is very slightly stepped in from the body.
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was it expensive?
If not I'd buy it :)
It's ... I think.... Hungarian.
I'd def buy it if only because I never see any. And I sold the only piece I had without realising what it was, to someone who was so delighted they wrote to tell me so :)
(or maybe Bohemian possibly, but the enamel letter are Hungarian)
http://gyujtemeny.imm.hu/gyujtemeny/talpas-emlekpohar-furdokura-pohar-herkulesfurdorol-mehadiai-emlek-felirattal/13318?i=902
m
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see above and yes, possibly Bohemian but Hungarian enamel greeting (spa becher I think)
http://collections.imm.hu/gyujtemeny/cup/41080?ds=eyJxIjoiZ2xhc3MifQ%3D%3D&i=656
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Hi M, I was hoping you were still up! Thank you for the prompt reply. The writing on the second link was spot on....there is a small bump on some of the letters in the same place on both. I was thinking bohemian after looking at more images online. I think it was Ł9.50, which doesn't sound like much now, but felt like a lot at the time. What do you think it is? Do you think it would have had a cover? And does it matter if it's missing if it did? My gut says c.1890. My gut also says I should have bought the other vase 🙄
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Think it might be earlier perhaps.
They are not often seen with the Hungarian enamel greeting though I can tell you that.
I don't think it will have had a lid.
Many bechers have an inset rim like that. They are decorative I believe,souvenirs.
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see above and sorry I don't know anything about Italian glass.
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Sorry M, missed the word becher somehow.
Three hours sleep and a twenty mile round trip......really hope the glass gods are smiling today!
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I can see a blue-ish haze in some of those pics, indicating (to me) that it might well be opalescent glass rather than plain white opaline.
Which makes it far more desirable as far as I'm concerned. ;D
The flowers look like a transfer print, though. ???
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did you buy it?
Sue, it may just be a very pale bluey white alabasterglas.
I don't know about the flowers - will hold view until we see the becher.
But either way, they aren't seen that often so I would have to have it and examine it and research it in minute detail ;D
m
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:o Surely you mean microscopic detail?
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;D
ah well :-[ It's fun. I love research and miss it badly. This is the next best thing.
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I'd like to say 'forensic' detail Sue but unfortunately cannot afford to do any forensic research. I have a few pieces where I am desperate to know a bit more about the glass itself.
m
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How much crime is likely to be involved? ;)
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Yes......mission accomplished......managed to get both pieces. Very very long day, just got in so will take photos tomorrow and post.......including macro pictures of the flowers!
In case any Hungarian speakers are about......the letters run around it in this order, but I don't know which one is supposed to be the first one (? Denotes one character that I cannot decipher, which is shown upside down on the right of the third picture)
EMLEKÜL?
Sue, I think you're right about it not being opaline. When I hold it up to the halogen light in the cooker hood, the entire piece is white. As I move it away from the light the foot turns that pale bluey grey. The inside is semi matt and feels slightly odd.....not exactly rough......could it have been sprayed white inside the bowl? Does that help in figuring out whether or not it is alabasterglas?
Could it be Biedermeier? 🙀
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Good old google translate.......it says MEMORIES in Hungarian. That's so sweet.
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It is opaline glass but it's not made with bone ash in the batch ( and traces of arsenic ? ) or whatever else it is that makes it go opalescent i.e. shine red under strong light. It's alabasterglas opaline which doesn't shine red and is made opaline translucent with something else in the batch. Tin oxide maybe.
It could be Biedermeier period (which is up to 1850 iirc) - I thought it might be a little later c.1860 or so.
Can we see some new pictures please against a white background?
It's lovely.
m
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As Flying Free says, if there is no "fire" when you hold it up to the light, it is not opalescent. No arsenic or bone ash.
I know nothing about opaline or alabastro or combinations.
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Proper pictures at last.
approx. 14cm high x 7.5cm rim diameter. weighs 374g
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yet more
Flowers do appear to be handpainted - at least no sign of a transfer and slight variations apparent in panels with almost identical images.
4th picture is the symbol or character that is unidentified - it might just be a random decoration to fill the space on the 8th panel.
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last ones
1st pic shows inside. It appears to have a coating which is thinner towards the rim. The rim is much more translucent than the body of the piece. Suspect it is done to compensate for the greyish glass.
2nd is base against strong light, where it looks completely white.
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Sorry to sound mean, but could the "internal coating" actually be water damage?
It looks rather like a seriously water damaged thing I found recently - it was such a thick coating I hoped it would not be water damage and come off. It didn't. ::)
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I think the interior looks crizzled or as Sue says possible water damage.
Nonetheless, there are only, I think, three of these souvenir bechers in the museum in Budapest collection as far as I could see. Spas were important in Hungary in the 19th century so for there only to be three in the museum is a loss of history.
I rarely ever see any Hungarian glass I can identify online (even if Bohemian made but enamelled in Hungary or for the Hungarian market) and I would have bought it regardless of the damage, because of this.
There is an article on Jstor written about Hungarian spa glass in the early 19th century but I can't get on to read the whole thing at the moment as I'm out of my allocation for a few weeks unfortunately. Irritating as I'd love to know more about yet another piece of glass I don't own ;D
I love it. A really good piece of history. I love the style of the gilded letters as well. Often see that on Russian glass items with the flourishes in the letter formation. Really pretty.
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I would be really surprised if something of this age did not have considerable damage.
I think a bit of water staining can be very easily forgiven - especially as it doesn't really show up through the white. ;D
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Thank you both for the replies.
I did wonder if it was lime scale. Thought about trying to clean it to see, but then thought I'm not familiar with this type of glass, so I wasn't sure what effect the cleaner would have. Final thought was that, if it was added deliberately, I might mess it up and so I left it. I have just had a look with a stronger magnification loupe, and the finish appears to be very finely pitted inside, rather than coated. Perhaps wherever was in it removed any polished surface that it may have had.
Are the pictures enough to determine what it's made of and confirm whether the flowers are indeed hand painted?
Is it possible to narrow the date down from 19th century?
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I can't see the flowers well enough to determine any if there are any brush strokes or raised bits of thicker enamel - but I can't see any dark outlines from a print either.
I have seen transfer prints of an outline, subsequently filled in by hand painting, but this is not that either.
Can you see or feel raised sections of enamels, or brush strokes? :)
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No outlines, no dots, definitely raised areas, some of the enamels have blobs that have cracked or pitted.
Just lost the entire post I was in the middle of, with links. Off to try and remember what I was talking about!
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It's handpainted and gilded.
Dating would be a guess. I'd have said c. 1860s but that is a guess. You'd need to find a similar shape with similar base to verify that.
The interior is water damaged. I am pretty sure it hasn't been coated with anything,
The alabasterglas is just thinner at the rim because it is. Not for any reason.
It's white alabasterglas hand enamelled and gilded. It just happens to have a greyish/blueish cast to it.
If I get onto JStor at the end of the month when I get my allocation, and manage to read the article, and it has anything interesting linked to your piece, I'll come back :)
There are no other pieces in the museum that would help.
You could try searching Dr Fischer Auctions, also Glas Kilian and Antiques Neurwirth who all have a very good collection of Biedermeier and Mid 19th century glass.
m
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Thank you both for your replies. I have read the Jstor article - very interesting and great resource that I hadn't seen before. Unfortunately, all the illustrations are of clear etched water glasses, and much earlier in date. But it was still useful to read and learn more.
Found this on the cmog site, which has similarities in the colour and the gold banding around the top, but appears to be much better quality
https://www.cmog.org/artwork/alabaster-goblet-0
Also looked up crizzled on cmog, not sure this would apply to mine as it has a very definite dry feel inside, as opposed to the wet/oily feel described on the site.
Lovely example of a covered goblet here
https://mousaantiques.co.uk/index.php/product/56-goblet-and-cover/
So far I'm thinking......bohemian, hand painted, made for the Hungarian spa market, mid 19th century, alabaster glass, souvenir goblet.
NB: I was retyping this post when M replied, so our posts have crossed
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Lime scale and water damage are different things.
Lime scale will dissolve in vinegar and come off, but water damage is intrinsic to the glass itself.
Polishing is the only way to get rid of it, and that's a very major repair.
Crizzling is something else, yet again - but is also major damage to the glass.
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I was just surprised that water could actually cause such damage to glass, as I haven't seen that before. I suspect it might be because of the type of glass - maybe it's softer or more porous.
I have found the closest match so far but, frustratingly, I can't enlarge the picture on the site. As far as I can tell, the green one on the right has a lot of the same features.
http://bav.hu/aukcio-tetel/cimeres-emlekpohar
Anyone know what the text says about it?
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It just describes the red on being sold - the one in the middle. Late 19th.
Yes the uranium one on the right is similar in shape to yours.
m
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The translated text reads:-
Description: Coat-of-arms commemorative glass Blown colorless glass brushed on twelve sheets. The crowned Hungarian coat of arms is covered with laurel on copper-ruby with colored enamel painting and gilding between laurel branches. On the back, under the flowers and a cornucopia under the ribbon, "Remember" inscribed with pasty paint. Small wear on the surface. Czech, XIX. s. end. M: 14 cm
(my pc came up with a box asking if translation was needed.)
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Thank you both for all your help.
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Thought it might be useful to add this link for 13 pages on Hungarian glass. I've only opened it on the iPad so far, so not attempted to translate anything yet. Really lovely pictures and lots of them.
https://docplayer.org/21478290-Regi-magyar-ueveg-geschichte-des-ungarischen-glases.html
Could the title of this thread be updated to "Hungarian hand painted and gilded alabaster EMLÉKÜL Goblet c.1850", to make it more helpful to others?
I read about glass being made in Bohemia and decorated in Hungary....... Is it best described as Hungarian, or bohemian, or both?
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I've been wondering about Parad (Hungarian) but it's so difficult to find sources and information.
Maybe leave it here for the mo until a better match for the shape is found?
For example Parad is questioned for those white opaline candle sticks in that link you just gave.
It's detail but for some reason I would think it's more 1860 than 1850- I know - minor detail but ...
And there is a similar shaped becher on that link as well with the glasperlen on it that also dates to 1860.
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I'm not overly secure on this, but I do think there is a good chance it could be Hungarian glass not Bohemian.
The only places I know the names of and nothing about are Parád and is it maybe Zlatno (?)
I cannot find a match on the opaline glass, but the shape is good for similarities. There is something curious about the stems and feet of Hungarian glass, or rather, not curious, hard to explain, but they just 'look' different to Bohemian glass bechers and stems/feet somehow. Slightly curvier, thicker, clunkier. Slightly more rustic looking by comparison, both in terms of decor and style.
Wish someone on here with more knowledge in this area would pop up. It's a country of glass that is not well known and publicised really - well I mean especially 19th and earlier centuries.
I have some resources but nothing in there matches yours except to say I think it could be by the shape of it.
I wouldn't move it to Bohemian just yet.
Ooh, there is more info here on the Prisma Gallery site but I guess you might have found this:
https://prisma-gallery.com/index.php/articles/13-article-02
It doesn't show some all of the pieces I 've seen photos of though.
m