Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: catshome on August 24, 2019, 12:05:01 PM
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Had a lot of fun learning about this piece. 11.5" (29cm) to top of handle. Concave Polished pontil. The surface texture feels rough and sharp. There is frit in the glass. Ingrained dirt in the joints between the jug and the applied handle (I will probably clean it out when it is being rehomed). The glass is not perfectly clear - it has the faintest hint of peach or citrine, barely discernible but it might be a clue.
When I bought it I thought it might be Italian and initial searches bought up a ewer attributed to Salviati, which had the same surface finish and a similar shape and rim
https://lelandlittle.com/l/salviati-aventurine-ewer/auction/339/lot/170/
Trying to find out about the term "granzioli" led me to a brilliant site
https://museovetro.visitmuve.it/en/il-museo/layout-and-collections/in-depth/glass-types-and-glassmaking-techniques-19th-century/
I have also seen the terms "granulari" and " granzioloni" used on some websites, but "granzioli" is the only one on that site.
Further searching lead to an image that took me to Angela's site, where I learned more about "overshot" glass
http://www.theglassmuseum.com/overshot.htm
This took the search to the USA - Boston & Sandwich Glass. I was very surprised to find that these jugs with the internal ice hole (other terms I came across during the search were "bladder" "chamber" "holder" "compartment"), were made as early as 1870. Most likely for keeping lemonade or iced tea cool, without diluting the contents.
This one on ebay has a more defined "crackle" than mine.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Atq-Victorian-1870-Overshot-Crackle-Glass-Twisted-Rope-Handle-Pitcher-Ice-Holder/273903280701
This seller has listed as Czech/Bohemian - they may have seen some of the overshot pieces attributed to Harrach. I've included it here as it mentions that these pieces were not made after 1887, as it was found that the jugs were difficult to clean and, therefore, a health hazard! The seller does not give any reference for this information.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/273810367936
This one has a very definite attribution to Boston & Sandwich, but the handle is distinctive and different to mine.
https://www.cooperhewitt.org/2018/02/21/chilled-but-not-diluted/
There are also differences in the position of the ice hole - some jugs have it above the base of the handle and others below.
I am hoping there might be someone more knowledgeable on Boston & Sandwich glass who can confirm whether they did any of these jugs with such a, relatively, plain handle. Also, whether the polished pontil would be right for B&S, as I have only found examples with rough pontils where a photograph of the base is available.
Thank you!
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More pics - the close up of the glass shows the very fine, wispy, lines in the glass under the overshot layer. These do not form the usual distinctive "crackle" of crackle glass. Are they typical for B&S?
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See page 140 for the Clichy version of this. There are more on pages 184-187.Very similar to yours but some differences. The ice compartment is above the base of the handle, the handle looks sleeker and less rustically applied than yours, and the shape is different because the size of the compartment looks larger.
However there are some similarities with the rim and design of the handle. That said, I think the handle on yours looks like a Harrach applied handle.
Clichy refers to them as Articles a glace. And the ice effect on the glass looks quite similar to yours actually.
I'm not entirely sure that one attributed to Boston and Sandwich is actually B&S either.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KEYMY4_ytuUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=cristallerie+de+clichy&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiH07at0ZzkAhULUxUIHYE1D-0Q6AEIKzAA#v=onepage&q=cristallerie%20de%20clichy&f=false
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M, what a brilliant book, and so great to be able to read it online - thank you!
I can see that at least two of the images I found appear to be Clichy "cristal granité ou givré", including the one on the left in this lot, which appears to have the same elongated handle as the drawing on page 140.
https://m.skinnerinc.com/m/auctions/2781T/lots/113
The bottom left image on page 186 really does look very similar, however it appears the bases on the Clichy pieces don't have the small stepped base. Although the handles might vary, I suspect the bases wouldn't.
I agree the handle does have a bit of a bohemian feel, with what look like stylised thorns and the fairly inelegant attachment to the jug.
We can add another term to the list - ice "pocket".
Be interesting to see if any other members have identified any overshot pieces, and can say if they felt sharp, or just textured. Early in my searches, I read something about using it as a point of differentiation, and I thought I had made a note as I usually do, but it appears not.
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Here are some photos of a British one in frosted glass.
(Permission for the re-use of these images on the GMB granted by Daniel Letts).
Marked with an indistinct diamond registry dark mark, so obviously from a registered design. The format of the mark (with a letter rather than a digit at the '9 o'clock position) indicates that the design was registered no later than 1868).
Fred.
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Thank you Fred.....that answers the question of whether similar pieces were made in England. However, the frosted finish in the images does not appear to be overshot.
None of the Harrach images have lead to anything convincing, although we can add ice "repository" to the list of terms.
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Here are my two examples.
The common belief seems to be that these are Boston & Sandwich from the late 1900s. See here for instance: https://www.brooklynmuseum.org/opencollection/objects/148919 (https://www.brooklynmuseum.org/opencollection/objects/148919)
But I wonder if this is true for all of these...
Were these exclusively produced in the US, or in the Bohemian region as well? (I don't see American glass very often here in Vienna).
BTW, I love to use them, they are very sturdy pieces :)
Michael
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There has been another example of a different type of crackle glass vase that Craig owned with icicles on it, being identified as Boston and Sandwich if I recall correctly. It was found to be Harrach I think?
So I wonder if these are correctly identified in the Museum?
m
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They were definitely produced by Clichy but I don't think this is the same.
I've already linked to those on the thread ;D
If you found two similar versions in Vienna then I wonder if they are Bohemian? Harrach perhaps?
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Thank you, m. I don't think Clichy either...
Bohemian would be my best bet, too.
Michael
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I've checked the Neuwelt book. The Eisglas examples are a large water Jug and stemmed water glass however both have an applied foot and have a red gilded snake around them. The snake forms the handle on the clear Eisglas jug. Nothing in the book with that kind of handle that I could spot unfortunately.
m
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Thank you very much m for checking!
Maybe they are Boston & Sandwich, and these jugs have been a huge Victorian export hit! :)
Michael
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I think we might come across a Bohemian piece with that kind of handle - a basket or something. I just can't remember where I saw one or some discussion about it yet.
Also my comments will need checking but I seem to recall there was a fire at Neuwelt and a lot of documentation dating from around mid 1800s and before was lost. The pattern books etc. So that may go some way to explaining why all their production is not easily identifiable.
Suffice it to say, they produced tons of glass and exported tons. So I think it is most likely that your pair would be from there rather than America perhaps :)
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Just recently I saw something similarish with a twisted rope handle described as Loetzt, but for my life cannot find it anymore...
Michael
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Maybe under the Loetz Victorian section on the Loetz site? Just trying to think if that is where I saw a large collection of Loetz pre 1880 ish glass.
Someone had done a lot of research and collecting and showed many pieces from that era from Loetz.
m
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In " A Guide To Sandwich Glass" 1st edition 1985. The authors Raymond E. Barlow and Joan E. Kaiser devote 17 pages to overshot. Two pages are a primer on overshot and the rest photo's of objects with description and comments.
According to the authors two different processes were used at the factory. The 1st process they would spread the bits of glass [ screened and sized] on the table after marvering, roll the glass on the rod in the bits and blow the article. In this process the bits would separate into "islands" and create lines of separation the likened to roadways on a map. Very much like the Tree of Life pattern in American pressed glass. Like Michaels [rocco] photo's in this thread. In fact the authors show a pitcher with exactly the same treatment as Michaels and attribute it to Sandwich. Alas, in the comments about this particular piece they also state it was reproduced in a most expert way and exhibited in the display of overshot by Czechoslovakia in the exposition "Man and His World " held in Montreal, Canada in 1975. Evidently Czech overshot manufactured and sold worldwide at that time. Sometimes marked " Czechoslovakia" but may be very difficult to see as the stamp does not 'take" very well because the nature of the glass.
In the second process they would expand the parison then roll in the bits of glass, reheat and finish the article. Thus you get a more even effect.
In the "how you tell the difference " section they state that Sandwich is lead glass and probably English overshot as well. I assume any French pieces also. By implication any Czech/Bohemian pieces are probably non lead glass.
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Cagney, thank you very much for your detailed reply!
So more or less as we expected: this design was possibly copied in Czechoslovakia. That would at least explain why they turn up here in central Europe (US glass rarely does in my experience).
To tell the difference might be difficult, as the design seems to be exactly the same.
I cannot tell if mine are lead crystal, I would think rather not...
Michael
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Loetz patterned handle here but not doubled twisted.
https://www.artglassnouveau.com/phdi/p1.nsf/imgpages/4523_DSCF9067.jpg/$file/DSCF9067.jpg
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And seller says this is Harrach Pomona - it has a twisted patterned handle. I'm not sure at all about that identification ??? I've no idea at all what it is but the handle might be similar?
https://picclick.co.uk/Rare-Victorian-Harrach-Pomona-Twisted-Rope-Handle-Art-254714614918.html
edited to add this version - the enamelling is interesting is this a New England Pomona version?
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/antique-england-pomona-enamel-art-1781872786
All these Pomonas are very confusing :-X Anyway, it's just another version of the twisted handle to compare.
Mount Washington jug Royal Flemish with a twisted rope handle:
https://images.prismic.io/barnebys/75c0956ce9d3dfd076b5d194354f7c22853a695e_29179-1.jpg?w=900&auto=format%2Ccompress&cs=tinysrgb
m
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On page 347 of McConnell’s The Decanter (2nd edition) there is a jug in a tapered cylinder form with ‘hammered’ finish that has a very similar handle to Rocco’s example - two strands of rope-twist, twisted together for the handle and encircling the neck. There is also some similar decoration around the circumference of the pocket/body join. McConnell says 1865-70 Franco-Belgian or British.
There is also a craquelure bulbous example with a plain handle and a tapered cylinder craquelure one with a single rope-twist handle, both of those he has as just Franco-Belgian, both 1870.
He has these jugs with ice pockets in the section for Champagne Decanters.
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The Neuwelt Eisglas version of the jug in the book page 175 and dated c.1865 is what appears to be the same dekor and design as this powder box/sugar bowl linked to below although the Brandenberg museum have it as Schachtenbach:
https://brandenburg.museum-digital.de/object/6155
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Ekimp, thanks for providing the info from the book!
And m for the links!
My conclusion so far is that this style of glass was very popular during the late 1900s, and produced in many glassworks around the world. If there are no other features like coloured glass elements or distinctive enameled decoration, it is difficult to find out the maker...
Michael
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Some further info on Sandwich overshot. I have a copy of a catalog used in the Boston & Sandwich Glass Co. offices c.1874. It consist of period photographs of good quality with black background. 79 pages in all. Two pages are devoted to overshot. Of the two pictures of bladder jugs shown both are the standard shape in question. One has the handle attached below the bladder the other above. Handles are fairly standard nothing fancy. Although the baskets have clear twisted handles much taller than the baskets themselves.
On May 3, 1877, the Crockery and Glass Journal printed a report sent to them by their New York correspondent. He had visited the Boston & Sandwich showroom located at 23 Barclay street in New York City. After a lengthy discussion of all the glass he had seen, he discussed frosted glassware [ the term used at the time for overshot], including flower baskets, finger bowls with underplates, champagne jugs [ pitchers with ice bladders ] and punch bowls. He wrote that all these items were fully equal to those imported from abroad, and that the champagne cooler commended itself to those who preferred wine without water.
As to pontils ground or otherwise I have no information.I assume they were left rough unless it protruded to much. One standard pitcher in the previously mentioned guide was machined on the bottom to level it.
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There are a couple of the jugs with ice pockets in the Baccarat 1916 catalogue, they call them ‘brocs à glace’. Looks like they are probably overshot.
https://www.glas-musterbuch.de/Baccarat-1916-br-Services-de-T.55+B6YmFja1BJRD01NSZwcm9kdWN0SUQ9MjA2OCZwaWRfcHJvZHVjdD01NSZkZXRhaWw9.0.html
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That's a great find and thanks for the link Ekimp. I agree that is overshot glass - the two on the right hand.
Interesting to note the different positions of the ice glass holder - above the handle and under the handle on various versions.
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Just looking for something else as you do.
Bit inconvenient to have the pocket behind the handle you would think…but as long as it looks good :D
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but possibly makes it easier to lift and utilise with the handle being stronger?