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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Paul S. on August 26, 2019, 10:26:57 PM
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It surprised me to see that a few days of charity shop searching in 2019 could still provide glass of reasonable interest - these were collected over couple of weeks and for a total outlay of about £15 - though I always disliked the habit of people who said "look what I found for small beer" - it smacks of boastfulness, and now here am I doing the same, though all will go back to the charity shop shortly. Obviously the stuff is still out there.
Am sure everyone knows what most of these are, so no need to waste a ton of ink with details, other than to say ……………...
the only piece I know almost nothing about is the barrel-shaped optic ribbed green vase - I'd suggest late art deco in style, but beyond that no idea. It lacks a pontil scar/depression so possibly dip-moulded which was common in the thirties for producing this type of moulded effect - it doesn't respond to u.v. and lacks clear casing but has good base wear. Horizontal ribbing is seen on many pieces of pre 1940s glass and from some of the big makers, but this I'm almost certain will remain without an attribution. I'm a big fan of this kind of decorative effect and anything really with a connection to the deco period.
The 'Jacobean' bucket shaped vase has the mirror finish to the base, which those in the know suggest means a Czechoslovakian origin from Inwald, so perhaps we should refer to it as Schrotter's 'Lord' rather than Clayton Mayers choice of 'Jacobean'. Many of the nearly 300 different shapes can still be seen in charity shops and boot sales - everything from egg cups to the elusive and very rare table lamp - I've never seen this vase, if that's what it is, but mine is incomplete - there are internal supports moulded into the wall low down, so guess this one is missing a frog or support of some kind.
The Sommerso is unusually tall at 12 inches and in the typical deep green with pale amber outer - sorry the picture is worse than useless, but it's the square section design with more sharp edges than you can shake a stick at - so often these things have flea bites, but this one is perfect.
I can never see the appeal of the Rose Bowl, and yet apparently it remained popular and was included in several of the later ranges - how were you supposed to use it - perhaps only the head of the rose was cut and then laid on water - but it's boring in the extreme, and always makes me think of No. 2's seat in the Prisoner.
The piece of more interest is the almost gold/amber baluster shaped controlled bubble vase with Elwell's silver label - but did Nazeing make this one for Elwell? - it would have been the 1950s if it is 'right'. Unfortunately, Elwell used his labels - including the one shown here - on glass he bought from other makers, and according to Geoffrey Timberlake's book Elwell is known to have purchased from Graystan, W/Fs, T/Webb, Stuart plus some Czech. factories and likely from other sources. I can't find this shape or colour in Timberlake's book - I did wonder if it might have been from the Water Lily Suite which is certainly a 1950s collection and was a controlled bubble decorated line - but no particular reason for a real connection other than the bubbles. The piece has a quality polished pontil depression, and appears not to be clear cased.
Probably will never know it's origin, but if someone does have good info then it would be useful to know. It's about 6.5 inches tall (c. 165 mm). Quite a coincidence that potentially the first picture includes two pieces from Nazeing.
thanks for reading and sorry the post is probably too long, but thought these small beer purchases might show it's still worth getting out there and looking.
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Maybe it's the summer Holidays Paul, I've managed to find some nice pieces the last couple of weeks. I think you have to take the view that someone is going to buy these, so why not you? It is a shame that the charity shops can't spend a day (or more) researching one item but, as a past volunteer who wanted to do that with a lot of items, I had to accept that they need volume and can only pull a few known items for auction. admittedly, a lot of what I buy goes back 🙄
Have you tried searching for your green optic vase using "beehive glass vase"? I have an amber one in a box, not yet unpacked, and I made a note of the maker somewhere after finding it online. It would be quicker for you to look than to wait for me to find the vase or the note!
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Nice haul! Is the wee pale blue speckled one at the front a Caithness bowl, Paul?
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Looks like the amber controlled bubble is whitefriars
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiC6rnl-6HkAhUoyIUKHXOcD48QxiAoBXoECAEQKg&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.20thcenturyglass.com%2Fstore%2Findex.php%3Fmain_page%3Dproduct_info%26products_id%3D5697&psig=AOvVaw09DOoX0FDT8EZarJfWvPJm&ust=1566958005128111&ictx=2&uact=3
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apologies again that the first picture is poor - and yes, the small sliced cut blue speckled piece is Caithness - it's apparently referred to as a 'Rose Bowl' and was made in a variety of plain colours and some sort of blotchy colour, from memory. I see them rarely, despite the fact that you'd imagine they were made commonly.
thanks for the link to a W/Fs amber/gold bubble vase. Unfortunately, it's a common failing to use this rather lose generic description of 'amber/gold plus controlled bubbles' as a way of defining something as being from that factory - and if there's a polished pontil depression, then for some folk this is a real clincher.
I always remember when I started out collecting that there was a not uncommon similar coloured largish bucket vase with flanged rim that was always being described as W/Fs, but according to the experts wasn't, despite these aforesaid features - so we have to be careful.
Mind you, if we can find my piece in a W/Fs catalogue, plus corroboration from a W/Fs expert, then you can tell me "I told you so".:-)
My uneducated eye doesn't see W/Fs quality in this baluster vase - but who knows maybe you're correct.
Also appreciate the suggestion of 'beehive glass vase' - will look when I get the time.
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Paul, My first thought on the Amber vase was Webb's, and I came across the whitefriars link when following the Webb trail. As you know, it is always easier when you can handle a piece, than just working from a picture. I consider 20thcenturyglass a reliable source, and only posted the link as they gave a model number which can be linked to a catalogue where you would be able to see what other shapes were made in the same range and compare measurements. If it's a question of the quality of the piece, I wouldn't expect it to be Webb's either.
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thanks - I wasn't knocking your information source in any way, I'm sure they're reliable, and I've looked at the W/Fs catalogue pages many times over the years, and will do so again for this one. Is it the case that we don't have any W/Fs buffs here anymore - in view of our exchange of words I'd have thought one of them might have looked in.
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If your wee Caithness bowl is 80mm across then it's a Whispers (http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=1143&category_id=90&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=6) small bowl, Paul. They came in four colours: Azure, Jade, Apricot and Rose. I still have one each of the latter two, had an Azure that went to someone else, and have never seen a Jade one (yet!).
Rose bowls (http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=928&category_id=90&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=6) are bigger and have a grill across the top of them to support the blooms and stop them tipping sideways when they are top heavy.
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Must apologise Anne, as the quality of my picture is so poor that I have misled you regarding shape, as can be seen from your links - very sorry.
Giving a little rein to the imagination, it does remind me of the 1960s Scandi designed moulded 'ball chair' (as in The Prisoner) - the rim is angled at something like 40 degrees and isn't level across the bowl as in traditional rose bowls which, as you say, do have metal grills. Am sure you will now know to which design I'm referring - I can post a vastly better picture of this piece if you wish, but probably now unnecessary. My reference source is Mark Hill's 'Caithness Glass - Loch, Heather & Peat' from 2011 - short of reading the entire text I've no idea if Whispers design is included - possibly not.
Mark's booklet also answers my question about the flower - looking at images in the booklet it appears you simply remove the head and shove into said bowl, though whether you include water I'm not sure. I'm also a big fan of traditional cut glass rose bowls with grill.
Mark's publication is very useful if you collect Caithness - I've no idea if anyone on the Board ever reviewed his offering, and my only criticism would be that in his wisdom he decided not to include an index - surely an essential part of any good reference work - even if it's only a 'booklet'. No idea if there was a revised or second edition.
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as I made a cods of the first effort on this Caithness piece - here it is again. The darker image used led lighting, and the accurate one was fluorescent strip - amazing difference. Apologies again Anne.
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I think the large turquoise one is Nazeing iirc (I have one and bizarrely it's one of my favourite pieces because the colour is great in a multi colour and lit display).
The amber bubbled one? I think it's Stevens and Williams but that's just my personal opinion.
m
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M, you did it again. I discounted Stevens and Williams as they weren't included in Paul's list of Elwell's suppliers. However, there is a green one here and it has the bonus of the same label. They have attributed it to Keith Murray, but don't give any reference.
https://scottishantiques.com/british?product_id=20692
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I think it was made by Stevens and Williams but iirc, there is some issue about evidence of what they made for Elwell. By that I mean, it has an Elwell label and the shape and design looks like S&W but I seem to recall that there is no primary evidence for that. I could be wrong though. Doesn't mean they didn't make it. Just that without primary evidence to support that we are in the land of 'probably by'.
I don't know about the one you linked to. Is it in the Keith Murray design books? Again if my memory serves me correctly there was a separate set of these designs maybe?
m
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many thanks to both of you - especially for the alleged S. & W. attribution for the amber vase (possibly Keith Murray) - as you say, a great shame that Scottish Antiques omit a reference source for this provenance. R.S. Williams-Thomas book 'The Crystal Years (A Tribute To S. & W. etc.)' contains mostly high end historic pieces, art glass and specialities, and includes nothing like this vase - but assuming the S. & W. origin genuine and since they were selling to a glass dealer then likely such material wouldn't have been considered suitable for the book - the index in said book omits any reference to Elwell.
With the greatest of respect to Scottish Antiques whom I rate highly - I was an occasional customer in the days when I paid real money for glass - I would want a positive reference source for this attribution. I've no reason to doubt the information, but IMHO it would be common sense to have such information before laying out £140, and it might be worth while one of us making a request to S.A. - at least I might then be able to flog my vase for a similar sum. ;)
IMHO, the turquoise flared vase is indeed Nazeing m, not that it has a label, and as far as I know their stuff was never signed, but I've seen enough over the years to feel happy with that provenance - I sometimes regret having parted with most of my glass, and Nazeing is one of the bigger regrets - it's colourful and a sort of jolly looking material.
The more I learn of this group (from the experts here), the more valuable it seems to become - if only we can nail the optic ribbed green vase as something valuable that would be great ;)
thanks again.
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The optic green vase looks like an S&W rainbow shaped vase
What's the base like?
here's a rainbow one
https://www.20thcenturyglass.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4819
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Coming back to above mentioned book, it might be of interest to mention that Appendix A (page 72) covers 'A Record of Colours' - for S. & W. material, and under the heading of 'Amber Varieties', it reads:
Name Colour Shade Uses
Amber Greenish dirty brown colour Domestic and tableware
Auburn Rich reddish amber Mainly vases, bowls and stems
Cairngorm Fine golden colour (c. 1918) Domestic
Old Gold A honey colour Keith Murray designs
Chrysophase Pale yellow amber with an orange tinge Gilt tableware and fancy cut pieces.
This might lend weight to the Murray attribution for these bubbled vases.
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Maybe some pictures of the green one on its own would help......I initially thought beehive as it appeared to have pronounced ribs on the outside, but it might just be the picture when I drag it to enlarge it.
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sure, I'll post better pix of the green ribbed vase tomorrow - on its own. Good try m, but this is nothing like your suggestion of a Rainbow vase - it has a mould finished base - lacks any kind of pontil mark - and no sign of a rainbow. ;)
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yes,could see it wasn't rainbow coloured but I didn't see anything about the molded base.
No idea then in that case :)
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as requested some more pix of the optic-ribbed green vase - height is c. 8 inches ( about 200 mm), and couple of flea bites on the cut and polished rim. Gives dull thud when flicked. In the second picture (base shot) the fairly extensive wear can be seen on the outer part of the foot rim.
Apologies as pix still a bit naff.
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Is it uranium glass? There looks to be a glow on the rim in the top pic. And can you feel the ribs on the inside or outside?
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from the first post ……… "it doesn't respond to u.v." :) .............. guaranteed zero response to u.v., unfortunately.
The ribs can be felt internally, but not outside, which I'd assumed indicated a dip mould - the idea being that the gather was dumped into the mould - blown slightly to pick up the features of the mould (horizontal or vertical) - removed from the mould and then blown to full size. IIRC this causes the moulded features to decrease physically, but leaves them more noticeable inside the piece than outside. Issues with that suggestion are that dip moulding in theory applies only to straight sided pieces or those where the moulding is required on the lower portions only - since you can't remove irregular shaped glass from a correspondingly irregular shaped mould. But this could be a load of waffle - I do know there are others here who should know vastly more than me about such moulds. This process would account for the lack of pontil scar/depression on the base, since with dip moulds there is no need for a rod on the rear end - in fact it's the top end that is attached to the blowing iron, hence the need to grind/polish the top rim when cold. Unfortunately, this can give rise to the flea bites you see here as the rim edges are thin and fragile - this can be avoided to some extent by bevelling the edges of the rim to provide some additional strength - occasionally such edges are folded over. I seem to recall that Continental drinking glasses, in particular, are often cut and polished at the rim - likewise they folded the feet and rims to strengthen these edges - British houses seem to have avoided such habits and possibly it's an historic thing - the U.K. lead glass was thicker and tougher than 'crystallo non-lead glass, which was finer and more delicate.
Old habits die hard I suppose.
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Moulds can be opened... and a lot of glass is blown from the top, cut off and then transfered to a pontil rod for finishing of the top...
And the ribs are removed from the outside by blowing and then doing that smoothing with newspaper in the hand thing
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thanks Christine - I knew there would be someone who had a lot more information about such moulds.
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https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,33260.msg180809.html#msg180809
more information there on the turquoise one I said I thought was Nazeing. Nigel has explained.
And a little bit here on the bubble vases from Stevens and Williams (although not exactly the same shape (or perhaps it's just the dimensions) as yours.
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,63211.msg354697.html#msg354697
m
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as I made a cods of the first effort on this Caithness piece - here it is again. The darker image used led lighting, and the accurate one was fluorescent strip - amazing difference. Apologies again Anne.
No apologies needed Paul. :-*
I've added pics of my 2 Whispers bowl by Caithness plus the one that went to someone else (which was apricot not azure, now I've found the photo of it!) The two I still have are a rose and what seems to be a paler apricot - certainly not as deep coloured as my earlier one.
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Anne - thanks for posting pix of your bowls - have to say I wasn't aware of this shape, but they're attractive - I must look out for them.
thanks m for taking the time to post your thoughts and links. So, what am I supposed to infer from your information - that my bubbled amber/gold vase is, or isn't Murray - sorry to seem thick, but I've been absent from glass for some while and I probably wasn't too au fait on 'pre WW II' art glass in the first place. Would be grateful if you are able to clarify for me, even if just a subjective slant. - thanks :-*
Re the Nazeing - as mentioned, I see their pieces (or at least what I always believe to be theirs) several times a year in charity shops, and they stand out noticeably, and I don't seem to have a difficult with provenance - perhaps it's the colourways that convince me, but perhaps I have in fact been getting the id wrong all this time. IMHO, Nazeing is quite distinctive, and whilst I stand to be corrected, I've not been aware of any of them being from other makers.
But - as you and I know, we can't keep everything we find, so in the end they all go which means that I've nothing in the flesh with which to compare current finds - however, IMHO I don't have a problem with id for this particular piece.
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hi Paul
In the link I gave, amongst all the information on the Elwell find, Nigel says this of the piece he shows ( same decor and colourway as the pieces you and I have I think):
'The piece shown is Elwell (in all probability made by Nazeing) rather than what we know as Nazeing, and came from the Elwell find. '
On that link Nigel explains in detail why some pieces might be known as 'Elwell - probably Nazeing for Elwell', rather than 'Nazeing'.
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thanks m - it's obvious to some of us, but worth mentioning for others who may be new to C20 glass, that Elwell was a dealer/wholesaler glass merchant, and not a maker of anything. Nigel's explanation sounds a tad convoluted, but I'm not questioning his knowledge in any way.
I might just keep these 'Nazeing' pieces for future reference - not that they come my way very often.
thanks again.
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Hi Paul. Just spotted what appears to be your green optic barrel vase in the middle of #42 on this link.
https://www.ysartglass.com/Otherglass/Nazeing/NazeingG04.htm
There appears to be an amber version in #73.
I was reading up on the Elwell find. Unfortunately, it states that not all pieces on the page are Nazeing, but doesn't say which ones, or name any other makers.
So.......probably not much help to you at all really. It's the thought that counts 😹
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quote .....................… "So.......probably not much help to you at all really." - no!! you're dead right - it's already gone back to the charity shop :'( why didn't you tell me sooner? ;) ;)
I'm joking cat - but have to say had I known it was Nazeing when it was mine I think I'd have kept it. Over the years I've seen a fair amount from that factory, but as they come in dribs and drabs - and since I'm horrendously impatient - I almost always let them go after taking some snaps, though have to say I've seen very few of their pieces in recent times. Think I now have only a single vase. I like the random sort of way that the colouring/bubbles are used - they're appealing with a mid C20 old style appearance.
Nazeing produced a few pieces - mainly lamp bases and some squat round vases - that use pronounced ribs as both vertical and horizontal forms of decoration, but this particular design doesn't appear in Geoff Timberlake's book. but then it does seems that much material is absent.
thanks for the 'thought that counts' ;)
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It may be gone.....but the memory lingers on, and I spotted this alternative theory on page 5 of the Wuidart Catalogue. It gives a height of 170mm but, unfortunately, i can't find a height mentioned in the thread. DId you happen to measure it?
https://whitefriars-glass.com/wuidart.php
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gosh, you want dimensions too ……………………….. I'm good, as you know, but that would be stretching my efficiency. ;) Sorry cat, nope, didn't make a note of size which ordinarily I would if I'd been posting a single item ………. the fact that I was doing a 'bunch' of things meant that my usual methodology went by the board. However, sincere thanks for pursuing this matter, and always of interest to see data from various makers.
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Just dropped in and thought I'd check backward through the posts. I'm haven't read this in detail, for some reason although I want to, my mind is concentrating properly ???
The turquoise blue does seem to come from what I call the 'Elwell era', that is the third period of Nazeing art glass. Sorry about the convoluted description, it made sense to me at the time and is something that is not always easy to describe.
The amber bubbled piece is a known S&W shape. Stop concentrating on the bubbles and add in the other factors that I know many of you already know ;) :) However, it is NOT Keith Murray. They are working on hope rather than a reference, since it certainly does not appear in the KM Description Book.
The green horizontally ribbed green pieces may well also be S&W, but I can't get the detail I need from the base shot properly, sorry.
T Webb, S&W and Gray-Stan all supplied Elwell with glass. They also bought from Czechoslovakia.
EDIT:
Oh, Geoff published what he could at the time. It did include ribbed pieces, both vertical and horizontal, but not how you're discussing them here perhaps. The vertical tends to be pre-war and on transparent coloured piece, whereas the horizontal is raised, almost applied, and post war.