Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: BlueOctopus on September 29, 2019, 12:59:12 PM
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hello, this is going to be my firts post and I´m from germany so please don´t wonder about mistakes and funny writing stile. Years ago I bought this old mug on the fleemarket. I took it because it was so funny out of shape. At home, washings layers of dirt away, I recognized that this is glass not porcellaine. ;D :D
I think it is 1850 or older. What do you think? It is very thin and as I said out of shape, the star in the bottom is not centered and all the rest as well.
I´m looking foward to your input, if there is anybody having an idea of age and from where it might be
Monika
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hello Monika - welcome to the GMB :) Regret I'm not an expert on 'old' coffee mugs :), so unable to say if this one is genuinely c. 1850 or older, as you suggest …………………….. so what might we say about this piece?
The style and method of the way in which the handle has been applied looks to suggest pre 1860 (this handle has the appearance of a 'strap handle'), and the vertical flutes (the moulded lines around the lower part of the mug) is also a form of decoration that might tie in with that approximate date, and the internal decoration of the star, and something else I can't see, was a C19 habit - so that too might help to confirm the age you suggest. Is the decoration a form of white enamel - can't quite see from your images - which, otherwise, are very good. So is your English - if my Deutsch was as good as your English I'd be very happy.
My humble opinion is that this was not designed for coffee - we forget that habits and fashions change - and in the C19 coffee was drunk from what - in English - would have been called 'coffee cans', rather than mugs. Handles are also known to have been applied to tumblers later than the date of original manufacture, thus turning a piece into a mug/tankard - I'm not saying this has happened to your piece, but often we are in the dark as to the degree of change of use that some pieces experience.
We see almost nothing on this forum like your 'piece', so have little with which to make a comparison, and provide you with verification of your suggestions.
My thoughts are that assuming there is the sort of wear that might be expected from something made in the middle of the C19, or earlier, then you may well have a genuine 'period' piece, and a scarce item at that - don't drop it, or even use it.
Hopefully, others here will come up with some really useful information for you - fingers crossed. As a matter of interest, what makes you suggest the date of '1850 or older' - and may we ask please that you let us have some indication of height - thanks. :)
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I think it's a spa glass; the space is for the name of the spa. It's certainly very unusual
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It's gorgeous.
When you hold it to the light does it glow a reddish colour at all?
It's a type of blue glass and decoration I have been investigating and researching for a good few years now.
The conclusion I've come to for my piece is that I believe it is Bohemian (Umgebung Haida )- and c.1820-30 (ref- Das Bohemische Glas , seite 35,11.31 Deckedose). Mine is not a box but a perfume bottle.
For yours, the key might be the shape which may or may not date it later than mine. I think yours might date to a similar period i.e. early 1800s (1820-1830) but I can't say for sure.
Also the decoration on yours is less detailed and single colour white and a little less precise than the decoration on mine and on the reference sources in that book. Mine is very similar to that source reference and others of that period in style and colours used.
But I think yours is possibly Bohemian. Possibly from a similar area.
I like the star base. It reminds me of those used for piano insulators for some reason.
I wonder if yours was blown into a mold to make the groove pattern and the star base? The box in the reference also has grooves in it - different to yours, more like ribs made to form a bulbous shape in and out around the box and lid but not a dissimilar idea to the grooves on your becher.
There is a cup in a saucer on page 32 of the same reference source. Completely different decoration and colour but it seems to be a straight sided cup, not dissimilar to your becher and appears to have the handle applied top down as well. It also dates to 1825-1830.
From what I read from Walter Spiegl there were many companies making blue opaline/opaque glass in the 1800s. I'm not sure it's possible to pin it down to a specific company.
m
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Hello Paul
Thank you for your long and nice answer. You asked for sizes, I Don´t have a inch ruler, so I only can give you cm . nearly 9 cm high and 7,5 cm wide. That is in germany a normal size of a coffee mug, near by 250 ml.
I will tell you a little more about this piece.
I´m a fleemarket hunter and surching for old and nice glasses, only with little money, because there is not more :-[. So far I remember I gave less than 1€ for it. I bought it because it was so poore and dirty, I thought you little poor thing, I will give you a new life in my kitchen. In the beginning I had coffee and tea, but the star on the bottom was so hard to clean, so it had its place in the bac of the cupboard. This a is a couple of years ago and I began to see glasses with other eyes and started to think about it.
You asked why I think 1850 and older... first off all a feeling. It is so unequal and unperferct. I have a lot of very old glasses, the oldest are all medicine bottles and flaskes, they all are unperfect and not centered. That made me feel that this is may be as old as these bottles. And the blue colour you quite often see in mid century glas of the 19C, but then mostly pressed glas.
4 weeks ago I got in contact with Pamela Wessendorf and visited her in her glas pavillion, one of the best appointments I ever had. I asked her if I can bring some glas pieces, and so we spend hours with my and her glas. And she was quite astonished about this mug. She was the one who told me to get a member GMB and show this to you.
the suggestion that this might be a spa glas makes sence to me. Pamela Wessendorf thought that this might out of the Bavarian area of Germany, that might be wright as well, because blue and white is typical bavarian.
So this now going from the kitchen cupboard to the collection and will never see tea or coffee again, only water for getting the dust away.
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In addition to my reply above, on page 76 of Das Bohmische Glas band II there is a reference table with coloured drawings in it from J. F. Romisch, Steinschonau 1832. The decoration on your becher is very similar to a vase shown on that series of paintings (design ideas). I think Romisch painted a series of works and decorators could use this to follow iirc.
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hello again, that is super to get such a lot response.
Yes it glows a little bit reddish at the edges of the star. I´m pretty sure that this is mold blown an then turned around and pressed the the star into the (Abriss.. sorry i don´t know the english word... something with pointil??) to hide it , not to flatten ore polish it. You see the the edges of the star are very sharp, sharper as everything els of this becher. And that is the reason because it is not centered, it is hot and you have to be qick to make the star, then you can miss the center.
1820-1830 wow that is old,and thinking what happened this poor little thing over all this years without getting any chip or crack.....
I`ll will see if i get this book , to have a look, first off all, thank you
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It is a fabulous book ( band II ) from a series of the books (band 1 to Band VII if I remember right).
In German and if you like glass from that period about 1815 - 1850 then it's a perfect read :)
m
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good to see that you have some positive help with this one Monika. As I understand it, the fire/glow from edges suggests some quantity of phosphate added to the glass batch at the time of manufacture - it gives those thinner edges of the glass a slightly opalescent appearance.
m - I like a perfect read - but im Deutsch is going to be difficult ;) Any idea as to the cost of these volumes?
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Expensive but worth it in this instance because this is a period and country of glass collecting that I am most interested in :) My reading of German has improved dramatically over the years - at least when it concerns glass research, nothing else of course and my speaking is non existent. Czech remains a complete puzzle to me though even though I research stuff in Czech. I rarely even recognise a single word and it makes researching it very difficult.
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I try to get an exsample over the libery. if not, then I have a perfect christmas present for my husband. :P
I´m just on the way to the sofa with a couple of Kg of books, worse to be restudied, one is from Walter Spiegl as well so maybe i will find something. But I´m very happy to find out so much in this short time. And in the next days I will come along with an other question, a beautiful heavy vase with an idea where it is from, but the expert I asked said no :'(
Nice sunday evening and thank you again
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Good evening Monika, welcome to GMB! :-*
Glad to see you here, the expertise of m., Christine and Paul - and many more - is fabulous, I believe! Thank you all!
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@ flying free, sorry I don‘t know your name: Christine?? ???
I looked for your books, you said 5.... I could not find them. Not at Amazon, not in the central libery not in used books or EBay.
Walter Spiegl Böhmische Gläser 5 Books to one Set???
Could you give me a picture? Or did I misunderstand something?
Monika
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http://www.kunstbuch-shop.de/glas/das-boehmisches-glas-1700-1950-band-ii-leinen.php
And not so expensive for the one.
m ( I am m :) )
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I have Band 2 3 and 4.
I use 2 all the time. I use 3 to check for things that might be later date just in case I've missed something :)
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Super :-* :-* :-*
Now i know my mistake, I thought it is written my Walter Spiegl. That’s an very good price
To long and to interesting to wait until Xmas :D
This month I bought the horses of Neptun from Inwald, so I have to wait until next month. But then...
If you don’t know the horses of Inwald... you find them in Pamelas Glas Musterbuch in the catalog of weil. The Vase arrived today, and I think even my husband will be impressed... he usually is not interested in anything what is not a horse.
Nice evening and once again thank you
Monika
And that in brackets ..... does that mean your male... sorry I‘m blond old and German .
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no :) I just don't want to put my name on here so I go by 'm' instead :)
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Oh don't wait til Christmas - It's a great book and even though my German is terrible I still love the book and plough my way through trying to translate the various information into English so I can understand the context.
Definitely a great buy if you like that period of glass.
Also highly recommend the Harrach book, From Neuwelt to the Whole World. I think that has a German format.(? - it might just be English and Czech? ) It is a truly fabulous book with a HUGE amount of information in it. It's a fantastic book. Not only in terms of Harrach output but just generally to get information from across the whole 19th century (some earlier and some later of course as well). Harrach were such a huge producer of glass that it translates well as a detailed information about the styles and types of glass of the period.
https://www.amazon.com/Neuwelt-Whole-World-Years-Harrach/dp/8074670058
I can also highly recommend Farbenglas I and Farbenglas II by Waltraud Neuwirth - amazing books!
https://www.abebooks.co.uk/first-edition/FARBENGLAS-COLOR-GLASS-BIEDERMEIER-ART-DECO/3440757848/bd
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In the mean time my books arised to 1 m only glass books. From new and modern glass down to the beginning . I‘m sitting on my sofa and having the tower of Pisa in books around. Every time I‘m surching for something special I don‘t find this but something I missed the 100 times before. To be honest, I‘m more a specialist for Scandinavian glass. The very old glas, or these delicious art nouveau glasses of Lötz or Galle I will never can pay, but dreams are welcome ;). And to get more informations about my old mug it is worth to buy the next 25 cm of books :)
Glad to join this forum of glass sick persons like me.
👏Monika
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Don‘t hesitate to ask for translation. Is it allowed to chare email addresses ?
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That's very kind :) thank you.
Yes you can click on the envelope icon under my or anyones poster name and an email should get through on messaging. When the person replies their email can be seen on that reply so it is not hidden.
I have no Scandinavian glass I don't think :o
Most of my glass is 19th century Bohemian or French and some English. Some 18th century and one 17th.
Really very little 20th.
None of it cost huge amounts of money. I rarely buy now as I have so many pieces I'm still researching. That is the bit I really enjoy to be honest :)
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Confusing is rising. Today I showed the mug to a colleague, he knows nothing about glass, but surprise he found something I missed all the years. The mug had an text in the medaillon, and with a magnifier I could read it. It is almost 99,999 % washed away, but is is remember me... in English!
Bohemian with English text??
Remember glasses are sometimes very old, but 1820-1850 as thought?
Is this made in UK? Did you have this habit for remember glasses? I thought this is typical German.
Was the color of the mug used in UK in early times, or is it just written in English but made in Germany.
You find me confused.
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If it was a spa glass, the text could well have been in English for English visitors, or it could have been sold at one of the English spas. Souvenir glass was often made in a different country to that it was sold in. These two were both made in the USA, but the one on the left was sold in Canada (Winnepeg) and found in England http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=1470
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Yes I think I have seen a blue version with that on.
If I recall I have seen a tankard (rounded not straight sided) with that on. I seem to remember it being sold as Georgian made in Newcastle ?? I remember filing it for thought that I didn't believe it was made in England :)
I'll see if I can find the reference as my memory may not be totally accurate, but I do recall thinking hmmm, I don't believe made in England. Text would have been gilded I think so that's why it's washed off. The enamel would have been fired on (elsewhere? - Germany or I think, Bohemia?)
m
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see my post above and here are the links to our discussion on here:
https://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/lot/104561
blurb says:
'A late Georgian mug, possibly Newcastle, of footed baluster form with everted rim and applied loop handle, gilt and enamel decorated with a cartouche panel reading 'Forget me not' surrounded by flowers and foliage over a pale blue ground, height 11cm. Provenance - This mug was exhibited in the Circle of Glass Collectors Commemorative exhibition in 1962 held at the Victorian and Albert Museum.'
It's a sky blue opaque glass tankard with rounded bulging sides and an applied foot. It has white enamel leaves in an oval cartouche on the side and says on it 'forget me not'. It's the one I thought to myself 'not made in Newcastle, possibly Bohemian'. But that's just my thought, no evidence for that feeling.
and our discussion thread here:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,64348.msg360643.html#msg360643
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Wow, your brain is very near to a computer. Great, for me it looks like the same company. But one silly question, even if your are still at bohemian, Georgian means which time. Sorry I‘m not familiar with English time counting. :D
This 50 Cent mug brought really a lot of mysterie and questions in my life. Thank you, glass can be so exiting. :o
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Tommorrow my salery comes, first thing I will do is buying this book! Part 2 :) :) :) ;)
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well this is what Wikipedia says :) :
'The Georgian era is a period in British history from 1714 to c. 1830–37, named after the Hanoverian kings George I, George II, George III and George IV. The sub-period that is the Regency era is defined by the regency of George IV as Prince of Wales during the illness of his father George III. Wikipedia'
So they too thought early 1800s for the tankard despite maybe not having the right country of making.
I don't think we can say looks like the same company. I believe there were a number of factories producing blue opaque glass at this time. They all had their own recipes for producing their colours, i.e. as far as I recall ( open to correction ) they were not colours bought off the shelf from a company. So there will probably have been more than one factory making this type of opaque blue glass (source reference: Das Bohmische Glas Band II seite 33,34,35 where there are a number of opaque blue glass items two with different makers mentioned, three that merely state 'umgebung Haida' ).
m
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ah well :) if you buy the book, see page 35 first, then also look at 30-32 for the white enamelling.
Then also look at the catalogue (musterbuch) of salts designs that were produced in 1832 where this type of enamelling can be seen on some of the pieces.
(I will try and find a link to that for you)- later
The Musterbuch was produced by J. F. Romisch 1832
If you look that up on google some picture MIGHT come up on Pinterest. I cannot find a reference at the moment that I can link to but you should see a page of vases with that enamel decoration and also a page of Salts. I have them saved somewhere from somewhere but cannot remember how I got them now.
m
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Interestingly, regarding the coloured glass from around this time period, Das Bohmische Glas Band II says this:
'Zeitgenosischen Statistiken zufolge unfasste die Erzeugung von Klarglas einschliesslich Kristallglas bis zum Jahr 1830 vier Funftel der gesamten Glasproduktion. Den Rest bildete Glas in traditionellen Farben, transparentes Dunkelgrun und Kobaltblau, hellblaues Opak- und Milchglas. Mit Ausnamhe des Milchglases war das bohmische Farbglas dieser Zeit wie im 18. Jahrhundert vor allem fur die Herstellung von Gebrauchs- und Verpackungsglas bestimmt.'
So, if I have translated that correctly, about 20% of the glass in production in Bohemia by the year 1830 was coloured glass as described above. Most of it was clear glass.
Waltraud Neuwirth also discusses the different variations of blue glass in the book Farbenglas 1 and II.
As does Walter Spiegl if I recall correctly.
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I just had a bottle of wine, so my English is drowning in red wine. I try to understand all the informations tommorow. ::) ::)
But I buy this book.
I did not see the comparison because of the blue color, the painting seemed to me from the same feather. But this „ child painting“ is easily made from everybody.
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Thank you to all of you, trying to solve the secret of this spa coffee mug
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yes,the painting design could be from many hands.
The Musterbuch shows a number of designs that are similar.
The Band II also shows that this white enamel feather painting was 'in vogue' on various items around that period, not just on the blue opaque glass items.
m
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I just found this, and I really didn‘t know that opaline glass could be older then 1820
https://www.auctions-fischer.de/catalogues/online-catalogues/266-ii-european-glass-studio-glass.html?L=1&kategorie=99&artikel=80061&L=1&cHash=7736b5caab
Monika
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Yes there are some beautiful milchglas pieces around.
See also Miotti Italian glass. Examples here:
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O4218/dish-miotti-glasshouse/
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1267/plate-miotti-glasshouse/
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Do you have an idea where I certainly can find out what this is and how old it is? In the moment it is all expectation.
Monika
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You could try the Passau Glasmuseum and see if they answer you and maybe they might have something more specific.
My knowledge is very limited and I am always open to correction on any of my thoughts.
The reasons I thought it might be around the 1820s is because:
1) it appears to have a type of molded base and I am not sure that would have been a base finish from an earlier period
2) it is of a blue glass that I have seen similar on different pieces from that period and
3) the enamel decoration is also seen on pieces from around that period.
I also think it is probably made and decorated in Bohemia but perhaps for the German or Swiss market because of the shape maybe?
The shape is similar to the one you linked to from Fischer Auctions but I don't think the shape alone would put it in an much earlier period if you see what I mean?
Sometimes it takes years for information to come to the surface and for pieces to be identified. I don't know if you will get a specific maker but it should be possible to pin down a time frame and country.
m
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I wrote to Passau, lets see what will Happen, I doubt that they will answer :'(
Monika
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The book arrived yesterday, I‘m more and more convinced that we are on the right path. It is very old round about 1820 and I think bohemian. Only the English remember me in the Medaillon confuses a bit
Monik
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Maybe because it will have been made for export or to be bought as a souvenir. It might have been made for the English speaking market originally and gilded in Bohemia, or exported and then gilded on arrival at destination.
Enjoy the book ... and hunting for new glass once you have seen all the other pieces in the book :)
m