Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: BlueOctopus on October 03, 2019, 02:23:06 PM
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Hello you all
I would like to show you another of my ???? in the collection. I bought this from an household where the owner died, the daughter had no knowledge about glass and gave me this vase for 10€.
I had no idea what company it is, but then I found a pattern at the glasmusterbuch from Pamela at the Jeosephinenhütte 1954 (tafel 078) 1958 ( Tafel 112) and 1970 model 1027 700 which I think fits perfect with the cut, and in 1958 the picture looks overlayed as well. 1954 the pattern was a little bit easier, the waves where more simetric, but the modellnumber was already 127 700. I asked someone who is quite familiar with Josephinenhütte. He ment no and that the pattern in the glasmusterbuch is not overlayed.
A couple of weeks ago someone had this vase on ebay, but other color and other shape, but absolutly the same cut and postulated Haida.
The stand is absolutely perfect polished and in my eyes the cut is gourgeos. When you look through the cuts on the other side multiply and you see much mor cuts then there are.
weight is much more then 2kg and the height is 25 cm . diameter obove 14 cm and the glass is 1cm thick. Diameter down is 10 cm. My pictures look a little more blue as it is. it is more petrole.
Has anyboday an idea from where the beauty comes? The Josephinenhütte-expert (he did not see the bottom) said it is art deco, but I doubt. I think it is from the 70th. The stand is much to unused for the 30th. Nearly no scratches.
I`m still sticking with Josephinenhütte, but maybe someone else knows more.
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I don't know anything about Josephinehutte - but when I see something of this sort of monumental construction, in good quality crystal, flashed with a good colour, all beautifully and deeply cut, I tend to think of Val St. Lambert.
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hello Sue
I looked through everything I got to Val st. Lambert, unfortunately not much only the catalogs from Pamelas side. nothing comes even near. But I hope that somebody which more catalouges of Val st. lambert finds something that fits.
What I forgot to mention, the Josephinenhütte arised 1842 in Bohemia, so it has very good roots. They came to Germany 1945 and began new . They are also known as gräfliche Schaffgottsche Josephinenhütte where Fritz Heckert also worked. 1979 the company was sold to villeroy and Boch and closed 1983
Monika
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We do have Anne Tique as a member here, who is a bit of a whizz with VSL. ;D
I hope she will come along and say something which might help you.
It is decidedly an Art Cut piece - there is nothing traditional about this. :)
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regret I've not a clue Monika - so unable to help, but the similarity with some of the cut VSL designs is apparent. Unfortunately, the copying of well known patterns and designs has been a popular pastime in many countries.
As for a date - I'd agree with you that probably not 1930s art deco - some of the books show British made cut pieces with these very deep horizontal mitres in wave form. as originating c. 1940 to mid 1950s.
Best of luck with attribution.
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If I'm not mistaken, the image in the catalogue shows a clear cut version. Yours is cut to clear and sometimes it can be a bit tricky finding the exact pattern back but I think you're spot on.
Re the expert and the catalogue image not being cut to clear ...nobody knows for sure anymore what exactly happened and was done at the time. I'm sure Josephinenhütte was the same as anybody else and sometimes different versions were not registered or have gone lost with time … anything's possible, a special order, a try-out, a limited edition ...the possibilities are endless.
It isn't VSL, I can be sure about that, they were stuck in late geometric art deco designs at the time and a lot had, what I always call, macro diamond cut. This looks way to sophisticated for that and too much of a match with the 1958 catalogue of Josephinenhütte.
You're right, it is a very nice piece, very nicely done and the optic effect must be captivating.
Thank you for showing this vase, your enthusiasm and content really comes through in your message and so you should be.
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Wow thanks Anne!! Paul is wright you are a whizz
I´m very happy. And thank you for the nice words to my kind of messages.
If anybody else has a differnet meaning: your are welcome, that is why we are here. But as long nobody doubts this will be in future my Josephinenhütte Vase :-*
Monika
By the way, must I set now the ID= in the subject?
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It wasn't Paul, ;) But Anne really is a whizz!
I am very glad you've got an answer. This is quite something. ;D
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I forgot to post the catalogue page, so everybody knows what we're talking about without having to search for the page.
https://www.glas-musterbuch.de/Josephinenhuette-1958.63+B6YmFja1BJRD02MyZwcm9kdWN0SUQ9MjM1MCZwaWRfcHJvZHVjdD02MyZkZXRhaWw9.0.html
(https://www.glas-musterbuch.de/Josephinenhuette-1958.63+B6YmFja1BJRD02MyZwcm9kdWN0SUQ9MjM1MCZwaWRfcHJvZHVjdD02MyZkZXRhaWw9.0.html)
Thanks for the kind words, not much of a wizz if it's up to me :D 9 times out of 10 I'm just lucky but haven't got a clue what I'm talking about.
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Modest too. :)
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>:( >:( :(
Ups ... sorry Sue and Paul, and thanks for setting the link
Monika
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The only identities that are important here are the glass ones. ;)
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Unfortunately, the copying of well known patterns and designs has been a popular pastime in many countries.
I find this really interesting, sort of the chicken and the egg question. Sometimes quality and colours are a give-away of what's what, but it is fascinating to see what was done, maybe 100 years ago, is still done today and that companies are still copying what's popular or what works.
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Monika, glad you have an almost certain id for this great piece of glass - Anne Tique is indeed a sharp cookie and very clever girl, and way too full of modesty. :)
I would have corrected this wrong suggestion that I had any hand in an identification for you, had I been at home this evening - however it was poetry day in the U.K., and I was in London at the B.L. listening to some great lines from the likes of Keats, Shelly and Mr. 'mad, bad and dangerous' Byron ….. read by actors, you understand ;) ;)
Cut glass is a metal that includes some lead oxide in the batch - apparently it produces a softer 'metal' which the cutters find easier to work. The higher the lead content then generally the longer the 'ring' when you flick the glass - the percentage of lead is often shown printed on the label which comes with the piece when it's bought - which of course no good if the glass is half a century or more old as with this vase.
The maximum of lead is usually c. 35%, but is often less.
Does this piece ring at all when flicked?
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Hello Paul, I never rang the bell before.
I‘m really impressed, I expected a deep bong from this heavy vase and got a high, clear bing. Impressed as I said. Does this mean high or low lead?
Monika
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To Paul again,
Sorry I‘m a little lost with the first part about writers and so, please keep in mind that I‘m German, and maybe in that case my English is gone lost somewhere. Or I had one Glas of redwine too much.
I read your post again, and so the highness is not that what I have to listen for, but I think it bings quite long, I think high amount of lead.
Monika
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To Anne about coping.
Yesterday when I was hunting at eBay, I found a lot of vases which are100% from Zwiesl and they where marked with Joska. ::) :o :'(
I wanted to shout at the seller, but they had a Joska Label. Than I visited the first time the Joska shop and what I found was absolutely a shame. Murano, Zwiesel and so on, coped 1:1.
Could‘nt they bring their own design, why is this allowed.
That made me sad :'(
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the quality or length of the 'ring' or 'bing', is to some extent related to the shape - some drinking glasses and bowls will give a pleasing mid-tone ring, but if the glass has a high lead content then the sound will continue for quite some time, as you have discovered, and this should indicate a quality piece of glass.
If you enter 'lead glass' into the search box on the GMB, you should get a lot of useful information.
Copying is almost the oldest profession where money is concerned - which would not be a problem provided we all know which piece is the copy - unfortunately, ebay in particular seems to have an abundance of sellers who advertise/promote glass of modern manufacture but copying much older designs/shapes. The original and older pieces do rightly fetch high prices - the copies trap the unwary.
I've been absent from glass matters for some while, but looking recently at ebay it's frightening to see the amount of mis-described glass, for which high prices are being asked.
But I'll give you 15 Euros for this one, and then you will have made a profit ………………… I'm only joking. ;)
Apologies for writing about the 'dichtung' and confusing you. :)
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Paul
I really fall in love with this peace, even for 150 € I wouldn‘t give it away. Even when copy is acid sign on the bottom :o
i know your are joking, but this peace, even if this was produced yesterday is so impressive, I will take it to my grave.... or 1500€ might be enough for separating it from me.. joking as well
I‘ve go to bed, I have to get up at 5 :'(
Monika
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hello Sue
I looked through everything I got to Val st. Lambert, unfortunately not much only the catalogs from Pamelas side. nothing comes even near. But I hope that somebody which more catalouges of Val st. lambert finds something that fits.
What I forgot to mention, the Josephinenhütte arised 1842 in Bohemia, so it has very good roots. They came to Germany 1945 and began new . They are also known as gräfliche Schaffgottsche Josephinenhütte where Fritz Heckert also worked. 1979 the company was sold to villeroy and Boch and closed 1983
Monika
Monika,
Where do you get your information? Show me proof in the form of a map where Schreiberhau, Warmbrunn and Petersdorf were ever located in Bohemia from 1834 on (and from 1866 on for Heckert). Also, then why do address books show Josephinenhütte and Petersdorfer Glashütte Fritz Heckert in Prussia, then later, the German Empire after Prussia joined and became a Province thereof?
The Josephinenhütte-Heckert connection: Friedrich "Fritz" Wilhelm (the Godson of Prussian King Friedrich Wilhelm III) Heckert, son of Johann Andreas, a master glazier and glassware handler in Berlin, handled glassware from Josephinenhütte in Schreiberhau after 1839. Fritz Heckert never worked at Josephinenhütte. Josephinenhütte Director Franz Pohl Sr. was Heckert's friend, mentor and supplier of glass blanks to Heckert. Fritz Heckert erected his own glass refinery in 1886, shortly before he died 22 February 1887, NOT in 1890, as you claim. Even so, Josephinenhütte records indicate that Fritz Heckert continued to purchase glass blanks from Josephinenhütte until at least 1921. Fritz Heckert's eldest brother, Carl Ferdinand, operated a glass shop in Berlin from 1847. Carl Ferdinand erected a new glass factory in Berlin in 1854, and it was then that Fritz was first mentioned as a participant in the undertaking. It was Carl Ferdinand that purchased the grinding mill in Petersdorf in 1865 (why would a proud Prussian open a facility in Bohemia? That makes little to no sense, considering the severe restrictions on glass export that existed in both Kingdoms at that time.). Fritz purchased the Petersdorfer facility from Carl Ferdinand (+Berlin, 1879) in 1866. It was in 1872 that Fritz purchased the brewery in Petersdorf, because it had a waterwheel, useful in powering various machinery, including engraving machines, grinding, cutting and polishing wheels. The seat of the company was in Berlin until 1884, thereafter Petersdorf became the seat of the company. Incidentally, Josephinenhütte provided glass blanks to a great number of German companies, (myself having expertise in antique German drinking vessels, and this information being of great value to me), including Wieseler & Mahler in Nürnberg and Friedrich van Hauten in Bonn.
Rolf-Dieter
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Thank you again for providing this detailed information.
I've been looking at another piece of mine on a different thread and realised the V&A have also sited Josephinenhutte as Bohemia here:
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O273/vase-johann-loetz-witwe/
Quote from V&A
'Glassworks engaged in this type of production included Joh. Loetz Witwe and Josephienhütte in Bohemia and Rheinische Glashütten-Aktiengesellschaft in Köln-Ehrenfeld, Germany.'
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Hmmm…Where to start. I am so fortunate that I know German. For if I wasn’t able to, I’d be misinformed like every other English language reader. I’m endlessly frustrated by the antique glass market in America. There is so much misinformation, thanks mostly to English language authors like the late Gary Baldwin, and the Truitts. 99.5% of my 4,500 volume research library is in German. I keep a handful of English language books, by the above referenced authors and a few others, for laughs.
I was building a class action lawsuit against Gary Baldwin for defrauding the public, but then he died. For starters, I was going to get the judge to order Baldwin to buy back every single copy of his first book on Moser glass, which contained many pieces that weren’t by Moser at all. Those pieces were silently excluded, without explanation, from his second book on Moser glass. He singlehandedly turned the antique glass market on its head. Antique Central European glass listed across all platforms is rife with misinformation. It drives me nuts.
I correct many listings on many platforms. I can only do so much, as it would be more than a full time job. There are a couple of prominent long-time glass sellers on eBay. Both are very arrogant, as the misinformation has been ingrained within them for many years. The one recently listed a Heckert Römer, as being by Moser (of course) in 1920. Rather, it was produced by Heckert, about 1883. I didn’t tell him that, but rather, said not Moser, not 1920, to see how he would respond. He didn’t respond.
The other has a Brautbecher decorated with an armorial bearing. He knows nothing about the piece. I offered to provide him with great detail about the piece, provided that he cite my eBay user name as the information source. I never heard back from him either, and don’t expect to. Citing my username as the information source is what I require of seller’s that I assist on eBay, Ruby Lane, ETSY, etc. Why? I have a wealth of information. It takes time to formulate the information tailored to a particular piece. I’m looking for name recognition for several projects that I’m working on: a book on the Heckert replicas mentioned in my last reply, for which I’ve cataloged 750 unique pieces to date, and counting. An identification source for Heckert/Josephinenhütte stemmed drinking vessels, via the stem/foot. And, the Josephinenhütte glass pattern books, as already mentioned. I just hope that I live long enough to see these products to fruition.
Back to misinformation/incorrect information. I say misinformation for I feel that the English language authors previously mentioned were purposely misinformed by Czech propagandists, and those authors didn’t bother to, or weren’t capable of fact checking what they were fed by the Czechs.
Now this is going to shock some people. By all rights, Bohemian glass should be referred to as German glass, because everything about it is German. The Germans taught Europe, and Russia, (and America) how to farm. It was the German intellect, ingenuity and craftsmanship of those that migrated to Bohemia to practice their craft, to make glass, as wood was plentiful there. (If you understand about wood during those times, you’ll understand why glass was made where it was made, until the use of natural gas to fire kilns came along). The majority of glasshouse documentation, civic records, etc., are in the German language. The names of the owners of most of the Bohemian glasshouses, the designers, etc., are Germanic: Egermann, Palme, König, Lenhardt, Hoffmann, Schreiber, Goldberg, Moser (a very common German name), Haertel, Beckert, Pohl, Pfohl, and many more. Where are all of the Czech names? There were so many Germans in western Bohemia, upwards of 35% of the population that it was referred to as the German half. But you’ll never hear that from any English language author, because they aren’t informed.
In Germany, a very clear distinction is made between German/Prussian/Bavarian/Silesian, or collectively German, and Bohemian glass, except for the dolts at the Passau Glass Museum. The Americans, on a large part, call everything Bohemian, citing it’s in the Bohemian style. No it’s not. It’s in the German style, for the reasons that I’ve stated. I’ll ask again: someone show me a map where any of the “German” glasshouses were located in Bohemia during their production periods. No takers to date.
Also consider this: The Heckert replicas that I mentioned, were modeled after originals found in prominent museums in Prussia, including imperial museums that were lent to Heckert for the purpose of copying them. Does anyone seriously believe that those museums would have lent that glass to a glasshouse in Bohemia during the late 1800’s? I think not.
Imagine the horror of waking one day to find out that your collection wasn't what you thought that it was, thanks to these authors (especially you "Moser" collector's - how much of your collection is actually from Moser, and not another glasshouse - you'd be surprised).
Okay, enough ranting for tonight.
Rolf-Dieter