Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Paul S. on December 11, 2019, 06:22:19 PM
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these things had a fair outing some years back, and various names have been linked with them …… Harrachov, Loetz, Moser and Smrckova - and in 2010 Craig gave this link to Alfredo's site … http://sites.google.com/site/loetzandglass/loetz-the-km-pitcher.
Some were finished on the rod (with a pontil depression like this example), some from the top, and some, like this one with a less than good quality rim.
I did have something similar further back still, but that example had the external strap handle, unlike this one which is fully moulded with a thin pipe-hole running down through the handle, and two mould seams - one in the area of the handle, and the other on the opposing side, running down from the lip.
Does it remain the case that those with the hole down through the handle were designed by Kolo Moser for Loetz, as discussed in Craig's link - does anyone know? This one is 7.5 inches tall (c. 190 mm). Sorry the pix aren't too good.
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Just adding a link to the original thread
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,4919.0.html
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thanks, I had seen that one too - unfortunately with many of the older posts the original attached pix have long since gone, so often aren't much help without their photos. The first example I had, with the applied strap type handle, went out years ago - now wish I'd kept it.
This one has a fair amount of wear under the base, so could be pre 1940, possibly.
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think I posted a too brief an extract in my first words in which Craig added his Alfredo link, so here is that thread in full …………. https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,34016.msg184040.html#msg184040
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Paul it would be very helpful if you could photograph it at the same angle as the one in Ricke:
https://sites.google.com/site/loetzandglass/loetz-the-km-pitcher
I think it's lovely - a real fashion/design shift on the earlier 19th C overshot ones with the ice compartments if you like.
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And pics of how well the handle was finished off inside, pretty please!
I think that is a feature which gives a good indication of quality - cutting a hole in hot glass and getting the ends all matched up and attached to each other is a really difficult thing to do.
And the quality of the handle hole in these jugs varies enormously.
My "mystery" jug looks ok, until you see how badly the seams inside the handle are married up.
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extra photos not a problem m, but I'm not entirely sure which of those images - in the link - you want me to copy …………… there are quite a few there - sorry if I'm being a tad dim.
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I think Flying-Free means directly side on, so that the shape of the handle can be seen. Some have a slight bulge (I think that is what is meant by the use of the work oval in describing it) while others have the handle completely in line within the outline of the whole jug.
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The one that has been identified in the black and white photograph of Ricke in the link I gave. It's the one on the left. The same design as your jug. Ricke id's it as Loetz production number 3175 according to the owner of the site if I have read it correctly. The owner states there were other makers who made similar designs but that design number 3175 was id'd in Ricke, I believe as a Koloman Moser design?
So if you photograph yours in the same angle as that one is it would allow some comparison. Otherwise it's very hard to see the shape outline - and it appears there were others made in that design that might be more similar in shape to yours perhaps?
So far, yours has a pontil mark, nicely polished, has a firepolished rim if I see it correctly, and has an integral hollow handle as part of the jug. The shape looks very similar to the Ricke one, but yours does look from your photograph, as though it tapers significantly narrowly at the bottom. A photograph at the same angle might help dispel this thought.
m
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thanks, o.k. now I know which pose to ask the jug to take - first picture, second row, item 3175 on the extreme left - and yes, polished pontil depression plus fire polished rim, albeit a tad wavy looking and the hollow down through the handle, which I've no idea how they create.
thanks to both.
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additional pix - hope they are an improvement for seeing the profile. In couple of them the internal tubular hole can be seen running down inside the handle, though still not clued up as to the reason for the hole, or come to that how it's achieved - you can see the pipe cleaner in the hole, and I'd guess the hole is c. 5 - 6 mm diameter. Visually, would look v.g. if the jug was filled with red wine or beer, but with water the effect is lost, though the whole point of the hole may not be for aesthetics.
Not being clued up at all with such pieces, I've no idea as to suggesting which design came first - those with the strap handle or this hole in the handl job - or whether both were concurrent. In fact not sure what date to suggest - 1940s?
Traditionally, cut/finished at the top has been the Continental method, with solid pontil rods a U.K. preference, but as with all things no doubt there are exceptions.
I've seen a lot of crackle style glass, in many forms and shapes, but don't recall ever seeing label let alone a backstamp, so no idea if there is a single predominant country/source.
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Thanks.
I don't know about the level of variation on these things but I don't think that looks similar in profile around the handle area or the spout area.
However, that might mean nothing except I thought they might have been mold made?
I mean it's a similar design, yes, tick, and it has the polished pontil mark and firepolished rim, yes, tick, but the handle design doesn't look the same, yours is straighter, does not curve outwards from the body as it looks to do in the Ricke variation, and I think the spout on yours is different although again, that might just be natural variation.
If they are handmade then I guess there may be room for variation?
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thanks - you see the large black stone toward the top of the jug - perhaps this one was a 'seconds'?
thought you'd know a lot more about these things than me? :) Quoting from Hajdamach - 'British Glass 1800 - 1914' page 265, there is some text he's taken from Pellatt on how to make this type of glass, though the wording appears to be discussing free blown material only - and the method depends on having two gathers, presumably such that when dipped in cold water the fissures occur in the outer gather only, then the piece is blown to full size.
However, in view of the seams on these jugs they are obviously mould blown, and no idea how the handle hole is created - so sounds a tad more complex than I first thought - this is perhaps at odds with your comment about being hand made - the free blown pieces will be, but not these mould made jugs? Would be interested in thoughts on dating - going out with a jug ;D ;D
I have a lovely little milk jug in crackle which has an iridised (rainbow-hued) surface.
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remarkable coincidence .......................... this turned up on my charity shop adventures earlier today - unfortunately, said water jug doesn't appear amongst the few glass pieces shown.
If you like the art of the Secessionists, Jugendstil, Mackintosh and his Glasgow pals, Art Nouveau and the forerunner of deco, this is an inexpensive introduction. Born in Vienna in 1868 - he died in October 1920.
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That is the wrong bit of "the inside of the handle". :) I didn't describe which bit I wanted to see too well.
There is a complete seam which runs around the centre inbetween the body of the jug and the body of the handle, (I didn't actually want down the inside the hole in the handle.)
How well that is joined is a good indication of quality. Some are really rather badly stuck and cobbled together rather than properly joined and almost "seamless".
I also seem to remember that there was a suggestion somewhere of the spout being flat or pointing down, being indicative of different origins.
I do not think these are mould blown. Unless it is before they are removed from a mould and further worked by hand while still hot to create the hole for the handle, put the spout in and fire finish the rim.
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Loved the coincidence of Paul finding that book today then, as I was looking at secessionist glass after seeing Legsy's candlesticks, I spotted this
https://www.1stdibs.co.uk/furniture/dining-entertaining/pitchers/vienna-secessionist-crystal-glass-vase-pitcher-koloman-moser-loetz-art-nouveau/id-f_10396593/
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Turned down lip, it looks like the back portion of the jug behind the handle is actually flat, rather then the normal slight v-shape, but none of those pics show the seams of the join inside the loop of the handle.
How many of the jugs we're talking about have this flat section on the body behind the handle?
I thought most were v-shaped.
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well, just goes to show I must have good taste - just coincidence of course, the fairies had nothing to do with it. ;)
Having a sample of just one from which to make statistical analysis, doesn't really count, unfortunately, and I've just had another look at all those examples in the link I posted originally - the coloured versions too - but it's very difficult to make out accurately how many of those have the V indent behind the handle, and how many are flat.
I think that if you look again, you will find that the item for sale does in fact have a V indent - you can see the indent protruding into the body shape of the pitcher. It's probably an optical illusion that makes the area behind the handle appear flat.
Do we think the linked example is green by virtue of manganese?
I'll post some more pix, as requested tomorrow afternoon - too late now, and I'm at Kew a.m. tomorrow. :)
Anyone want to buy a clear glass crackle pitcher - going cheap. ;)
thanks to catshome for posting this interesting and very relevant link.
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before I do the David Bailey bit, again, and get it wrong, again, let me explain exactly where I'm seeing the seams on this piece - this might indicate what's required.
Externally, there is a seam running 'down' where we see the V indent on the body (and this is mirrored internally in the form of a shallow groove which continues on both of the small platforms) - it starts immediately behind the top of the handle, crosses over to the top of the V, runs down to the lower end of the V, then crosses back to the bottom of the handle
Again, externally, the handle appears to have two seams - one each on opposing sides, but only for the length of the handle - the seam doesn't extend beyond the handle, in either direction.
The only other seam is that running the full height of the jug - from the lip to the base, straight down. Regret I can't take photos internally. :)
Complex explanations aren't my forte - hope the above helps. :)
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It helps LOADS. :)
The seam I want to see is this first one you describe.
"Externally, there is a seam running 'down' where we see the V indent on the body (and this is mirrored internally in the form of a shallow groove which continues on both of the small platforms) - it starts immediately behind the top of the handle, crosses over to the top of the V, runs down to the lower end of the V, then crosses back to the bottom of the handle."
But we have learned something. My jug has absolutely NO other seams. Just the crackle.
So, some were mould made and some were not? ;D
There are tool marks at the bottom of the handle on the outside, but that's just part of the handle being "tucked back in and finished off" - a bit untidily.
My seams are easy to see and feel, and squint. Not at all neat.
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the internal photos made me think of 'down caverns measureless to man', and contrary to my first thoughts the inside pix are a little better than I'd imagined - anyway these pix can be viewed in conjunction with comments about the other seams etc., and I can only hope that this further batch of snaps fulfils what is required.
However this particular piece was made, obviously there was a mould involved somewhere - the flat surfaces and seams couldn't be achieved without one - now wish I'd kept the strap-handled version I had, but isn't life full of regrets.
Despite my interest in art styles 1880 - 1940 - nouveau, arts and crafts, secessionist, Glasgow School, deco - not really sure which pigeon hole this one fits, stylewise - the shape is unlike other Koloman Moser pieces in the above booklet, but since it's a design attributed to him, then we must defer to the experts. I'd suggest it lacks artistic appeal in the sense that its a functional shape only, devoid of decoration, and looks to be made simply along practical lines - presumably pinched ice trap lips were a later innovation, but I'm guessing a bit there.
The example in the link from catshome showing the greenish tinge may appear that way due to manganese, but guessing a bit there - would like a uranium example ……….. anyway will keep an eye out for other examples, though they appear to be a bit thin on the ground.
Six pix - so two will appear on the following post.
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the final two...……….. and I'm not doing any more ;)
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That's really pretty neat. :) Thanks for the pics.
Mine is a right mess - not central, running down the point of the V, but way off to the side, about 0.5 cm away at the top; over 1cm at the bottom. This results in a squint, tall triangular section at the back.
It's lumpy and has deep gouges in it on the handle side.
The colour of my glass isn't great either. Slightly yellowy.
I've never been sure about mine. There are too many inferior features in it for me to hope it was anything really good, although when first trying to find out anything, the shape with the turned down rim did seem to indicate something.
The long hole down the centre of my handle is all wiggly. It would look daft with coloured liquid in it. :)
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It's unlikely that we'll ever know, but it might have helped us with alternative manufacturers and dates for varieties of this design, if we knew how widespread, by others, was the manufacture of his own designs. Moser it seems had his own studio, so we have to assume he did actually produce this design in his studio, but as for whether he made all of them is very unlikely - here is his entry in Newman's 'An Illustrated Dictionary of Glass' (1977) :-
""A glass-worker and designer who founded a studio at Karlsbad (Karlovy Vary) in Bohemia in the early 1900s and made glassware in ART GLASS style. His work included CAMEO GLASS with enamelled decoration and also some decorated with many crowded pieces of applied coloured glass. He designed iridescent glass, c. 1902 for J. Lotz Witwe (see LOTZ GLASSWARE). He also made a type of one-colour glass called 'ALEXANDRIT', wholly unlike the ALEXANDRIT made by STEVENS & WILLIAMS, Ltd., and THOMAS WEBB & SONS.
Looking at his designs in my new Moser booklet, it's obvious that, like Dresser, he was keen on those elements of design that emphasized functional parts of a item - high hooped or angular handles and the reduction of a shape to necessity - he doesn't seem to have been particularly keen on simply repeating nouveau and its floral complexity. The functional design of this jug must surely owe something to Dresser's passion for linear design - the handle that's incorporated into the body shape and the cut-out for ease of holding - nothing fancy. This is a separate area of Dresser's design field to his Clutha range from Couper in Glasgow, where shapes appear to owe much to historic Roman or middle eastern shapes - a phase similar to that of W/Fs passion for copying Roman shapes during the late C19.
The pieces in my Moser booklet - presumably all made in his studio - are without any surplus decoration - most lack handles and when these are present they're functional and nothing more. Large flanged rims also appear - I've always like that sort of thing - it's elegant but simple.
Presumably if Moser's designs lacked any copyright protection then others might have copied them, but we don't know who or when, but IMHO it's very unlikely that Herr Moser's studio made my jug - just annoying that we'll probably never know else it was.
Pix attached of a small slightly iridescent milk/cream jug - in crackle and with quality polished pontil depression - 3.5 inches in height. Pix a bit iffy - rushing again.