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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Martyn1 on December 22, 2019, 11:51:40 AM
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Hi
I have a few decanters that have been given possible dates of 1830 -1840. I feel that most of them date to 1840 -1850 by a variety of factors of they are original . One of these factors is the presence of scribbed numbers on some of them used to match them up with the correct stopper. Is it possible that this numbering started earlier than the victorian era and that some of them do date to the 1830s? Many thanks for any help.
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Hi Martyn1 and welcome. This subject was partly discussed in http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,68935.0.html but unfortunately I don’t think there was anything conclusive. It would be interesting to find out more.
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Many thanks for your reply. They are cylinder decanters with three applied neck rings. I was informed that they may be produced pre 1850 although I've seen some described as late victorian so I'm struggling a bit. They all have a slight grey tone and some frit. One has 32 points in a star cut base which is said to be c1840 - 1860. This one I've found is also said to be dated to 1880. Confusing
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Yes, not the easiest things to date. McConnell's book on decanters seems to be the one to get although I’ve not invested yet. I’m happy with my decanters based on some experience, the internet/forum and other cheaper books like some of the Miller’s volumes. You could try posting some pictures on the forum and see if someone has any suggestions.
I’ve got a couple of decanters with numbered stoppers but they are definitely Victorian in style. It’s nice to be sure of the stopper being original. I saw on Bargain Hunt once where the expert decided the stopper was original by twisting it three times whilst pushing it home. If he could then hang the decanter from the stopper, then it was original - seemed a bit iffy to me ;D
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Thank you. Hanging a decanter by its stopper sounds a bit dangerous so i won't be trying that. I have tried to attach pics of one of mine but the file is too big so I will have to try later. Mine are all typical royal type cylinder decanters with three applied neck rings. Each has different style cutting. Two have plain bases with ground out pontil. Two have star cut bases, the others arrow cut bases. One I'm fairly certain is c1830 with 16 points to the base star. .
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Thought I'd once read that you'd be lucky to find a matching No. on something much earlier than 1890 - 1900 - but perhaps thinking has changed.
quote ……… "I’ve got a couple of decanters with numbered stoppers but they are definitely Victorian in style." The lady reigned for a long time - what sort of assumed date of manufacture are we talking here? :)
So many stoppers are replacements, or at least they are on bottles in the places I buy from - it's a surprise when one with a perfect fit is found - and sometimes the matching No. helps to confirm this.
Difficulties with dating bottles are the usual ones - caused by the many copies out there.
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Yes. My decanters mainly came from boot sales and charity shops. Non have the correct stopper and most didn't have them when I bought them. An expert has seen some of them and dated them to 1830s by style but I think that most are 1840s and later. This is where I'm confused as some have numbered necks or lips.
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dating by style alone is risky - so many patterns have been copied, particularly in the 1920 - 1930 period, and I'd suggest you won't find a bottle with matching Nos. earlier than Victorian.
Try re-sizing your images with IrfanView programme - it's free to download - or send your pix to one of the Mods. and they will be able to help I'm sure. :)
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Many thanks. I am thinking that most of mine are victorian c 1840 - 1850? I would try and send pics to moderators as my phone doesn't work well with pictures. Is there a particular moderator or email address that someone wouldn't mind me sending pics to?
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This site suggests a stopper of c1820 which shows a scribbed number.
http://www.lovedecanters.co.uk/LDCopies.html
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from those bottle I have seen - 1800 to present - experience appears to show that it's unusual to have the matching No. on the mating shaft of the stopper - in fact I don't now recall that I've ever seen such an example. McConnell's book is a must if you collect these things - reading his notes under the heading of 'Stoppering' is interesting, and useful, in conjunction with the above link,
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Many thanks Paul. Some of my decanters have the numbers on the lip or neck. I don't have matching stoppers. Some of the stoppers that I have on other decanters are numbered on the tip and appear to be victorian to me. Unfortunately I don't have any books on decanters as I only buy decanters when they are cheap and I mainly collect ceramics and Militaria. The ones i have are chance finds and I would just like to know the age of them.
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"I’ve got a couple of decanters with numbered stoppers but they are definitely Victorian in style." The lady reigned for a long time - what sort of assumed date of manufacture are we talking here? :)
Yes, in there somewhere ;D I was thinking later but mine are shaft and globe decanters (and almost perfect) so I thought wouldn’t help with deciding if numbered stoppers existed before the Victorian period.
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A dealer has informed me that he has a decanter deemed to date to c 1830 which has a numbered lip. It was on the antiques roadshow a while back and he was told by the expert that they would often be numbered by the owner to ensure that servants would match the stoppers correctly. So tat may be a possibility.
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have to say I've not previously been aware of seeing the comment that matching Nos. were added by owners as an aid memoir for the servants - must speak to the maid again on that point;-)
I could be very wrong, but was under the impression that such numbering was for the benefit of the factory workers to help with 'matching' a given bottle to a suitable well fitting stopper, before leaving the factory.
It could be of real interest, and a way of helping to settle this issue of dating for matching Nos., if people here were to post pix of their bottles with matching Nos., provided of course that assumed dates of manufacture of said bottles is incontrovertible.
The copyists were busy, apparently, in the last quarter of the C19, and then again between the wars in the C20. Such bottle are now of considerable age, and will show sufficient wear to make accurate dating difficult.
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Yes it would be really good if people would post their bottles with numbers on. I myself can't see why this can't have been done in the regency period as matching stoppers was just as important then. If you were copying to deceive then why add the numbers to an otherwise authentic looking piece, likewise, surely you could tell by the quality of the glass.
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Manufacturers would sometimes put a private mark on the decanter somewhere to indicate it was one of theirs. There is a news clipping I read some time ago of Aldersons of Warrington c1840 using such a mark as proof that their goods had been stolen from the works and sold on by the thief to a nearby retailer.
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That's interesting and makes a lot of sense. One of the bottles i have has the look and feel of old glass with a soft grey tone. It is a typical type of royal cylinder decanter. The stopper may be the original one but has no number. The decanter has a number 5 scribbed on the lip. It was described as victorian and the seller described the date as c 1830 - 1840, pre 1850. The number could be anything. It would be good to know if any definite Georgian, Regency or early Victorian decanter has a similar number.
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provided of course that assumed dates of manufacture of said bottles is incontrovertible.
Does such a piece of glass exist? :)
experience appears to show that it's unusual to have the matching No. on the mating shaft of the stopper
Just had a look and both my shaft and globe decanters have stoppers numbered like this, rather than on the end.
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Yes with all the makers there must have been loads of variations and a lack of consistency. Some makers may have been numbering stoppers quite early. It would be nice to know if any contemporary documentation mentioning these numbers exists.
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it can do if you watch the gaffer making it ;D I didn't quite mean down the exact month or year, but a given decade would be good enough.
obviously I'm buying bottles from the wrong place ;) - it could be my memory, and it may be the case that I have seen numbers on that surface and forgotten, but certainly for me it's unusual - most commonly they are on the stub or neck of the stopper. If you think about it, marking on the mating surface, you'd imagine, wouldn't be the first choice of location in view of potential wear that might over the years obscure it, but obviously they did and the one shown here remains legible still, though as for age I'm not sure.
I'd suggest that if either the stopper or the bottle lack a matching No. then they didn't start out life together - alternatively, the original stopper was lost and a replacement made, professionally. At least for the C20, a correct stopper should fit with a smooth non-wobbly fit, then lock,
but according to the books Georgian/Regency stoppers were less of a good fit - Andy McConnell's book does help with some of this information.
I'm sure that if paper work on this subject did exist someone would have told us by now.
Many moons back I had a heated argument (so nothing new there then) in north Wales with a guy, in an antiques shop over just this subject of matching stoppers. He was buying an 'old' decanter, and I commented that he should make sure both parts had matching Nos.
His reply was that the workers would simply spin one on the treadle lathe to make it fit the bottle and that was good enough - they didn't mark them. I don't remember the age of the bottle he was buying.
Rarely I have seen Nos. that had an old appearance - a 'type face' if you like - typography and style of a late Victorian/Edwardian font.
Anyway, now waiting for the hordes of pix from members showing matching Nos. on Georgian and Regency decanters and their stoppers.
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Interesting and thanks for the info. The numbers on my decanters vary from very plain to one which is pretty fancy (on a stopper that would appear late victorian which I have added to the un numbered bottle). It may be that some makers marked them and others didn't during the same period. They would obviously have kept them together upon fitting so marking them may not have been seen necessary by all makers - it may simply have been carried out by some makers as an added precaution to prevent them getting miss-matched if a buyer bought a few of the same type.
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Here are Martyn's photos, resized to fit the board.
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Thank you Anne. This is one of my boot sale finds a while back. Typically, it had no stopper.
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yes, thanks Anne.
As you've already said, the appearance of this one is typical of the cylinder pattern which was originally c. 1825 - 1840 - shame about the missing stopper, and going by McConnell's book it looks to be that most such bottles had a star cut base, but that could be speculation. Very wide pontil depressions are usually an indication of greater age than small ones. Is this the bottle with a No. 5 on the neck ?? not sure, - it looks to be in quite good condition.
Stopper shapes for this pattern of bottle look to have predominantly been mushrooms in some form plus spires.
It used to be possible to pick up stoppers on their own - always useful, but very rarely did they fit well enough to keep, though don't think we see lonely stoppers these days quite as commonly - suppose you might try a cork, with care :)
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Thanks Paul. This is the one with a five on the lip. So you would suggest that this is a good example and genuine of the period?
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;D to be honest, I'm unsure quite what to say, though I'm sure others will suggest without hesitation that it's period, and certainly we can't fault this bottle on appearance, and it has enough wear to convince most of us, but having something in the hand is vastly better than simply looking at the screen,
What is bugging me is this issue about when matching Nos. started - I'd been walking around for years happy in the knowledge that this feature was no earlier than second half C19, but then I'm a pessimist when dating glass, and usually start from the premise that something isn't as old it would like me to think it is, until we can prove otherwise.
At the end of the day if we can't come up with some argument that suggests this is a later Victorian copy - which we probably can't - then I'd go for it and say it's from the original cylinder period, and probably c. 1830. However, this does seem to be implying that matching Nos. started earlier than I'd thought.
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Many thanks Paul for all of your help. I'm also wandering if the numbering may have been applied later if it was fitted with a new stopper. It would be interesting to find out more about this subject. I have others with plain and star cut bases some numbered, others un numbered.
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have to remember also that sometimes the No. on the body is found on the underside of the base, and ignoring this alternative location could make you think there wasn't a No. to match the stopper.
No idea to what extent replacement stoppers are made - I think you'd need to love your bottle big time to go down that road.
Talk of making stoppers reminds me of the 'pinchers' - late C18 and early C19 workers from mostly B'ham and Stourbridge apparently, who made stoppers, and drops for lustres, but not the bottles, by means of pinch moulds.
It's not difficult to take photos of Nos. ………….. using a loupe between the camera and subject (probably best when loupe is nearest the camera) with a magnification of c. x3 - x7 and with raking light it should be possible to produce worthwhile pix. Talc or carbon paper colour can be rubbed into the area which helps sometimes.
But doubt that phones are suitable - a real camera is best.
I don't think there is much more info re the matching Nos. to be acquired from books - like many things, acquiring knowledge is best done by personal experience - going to museums, antiques fair, etc, and handling the stuff.
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Interesting. I love these things and only buy when they're cheap. I like boot sales and charity shops as they may have been passed down the family. The most that I've paid is £10.00. A friend of mine has stated that millions of these were made in the 1830s and that they are relatively common. I found a smaller one this afternoon in a box that I had forgotten about. This one also has a matching number on the bottle and the stopper. The stopper is a Regency design of a octagonal cut mushroom. May try and post a picture of that one if I can.
Mod: Images added for Martyn
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Thanks for posting the images for me. This last decanter has some wear on the lip and base - only the very edge of the bottle touches the table and it wobbles so not badly worn on the base edges. It's a small bottle with a light grey tone. I don't know if this is an early, little used, bottle or a victorian copy? I love the design of this one.
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I would love to know what others think of the last decanter that I posted. Does this look period 1830s or a victorian copy?
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Martyn - apart from the fact that decanters have a limited following here, think also there's a limit to what is discernible - in terms of 'hallmarks' etc. - that can be seen on the screen, particularly when phone pix aren't perhaps the best.
As we've said, the face value appearance of a bottle is useful, but there are other features that are essential for determining if something is genuine period, and even then people will argue amongst themselves. :)
Perhaps time to view some antiques fairs and make comparisons - or museums etc. On this one the 'wobble' aspect sounds unusual - don't recall having a bottle than wobbled, and doubt that 'millions' (referring to genuine c. 1830 bottles) could be corroborated, though no doubt many designs were common.
Other features to consider are ................. colour, seeds/stones, discolouration inside the body, is the cutting sharp, can you see grinding marks within the mitres .................. but even then separating something made c. 1830 and 1890 can't be easy. Some people will suggest that the colour of the glass is most important feature from the Regency, then again others will say many bottles are known where the glass lacks any leaden hue. Most things that are genuinely old, have a certain something that can be seen, but perhaps not described easily.
Can't recall - do you have Andy McConnell's book?
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Many thanks. Unfortunately I do not have that book but aim to get it. It has a small amount of frit visible in one spot and a light smoky grey tone. It wobbles because the base is slightly uneven and does not sit evenly on the table. This wobble is only slight though and it is still stable.
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Looks like a nice decanter. I wouldn’t like to comment on age although I’m also still unsure of the etched numbers being used before later Victorian. I thought the etched numbers were to do with productionisation of manufacture during the later Victorian period. For example, making 100 number 14 stoppers for 100 number 14 bodies, rather than making a stopper to fit a particular decanter body. Maybe there were numbered settings on the grinding machines.
The only comment I would make about the decanter shown is I wonder about the quite long parallel stem of the stopper, maybe it looks more modern - that’s just a feeling.
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as we've said before, this subject is perennial, and I seem to recall that that on one of the earlier occasions we spoke about the numerical value of these Nos. - mostly they're seen as single digits with a value of less than ten. I was surprised to see one some years back that was something like 48 or similar, but that was very unusual.
Like Ekimp, I'm still worried that we have over-estimated - in terms of age, as to when such matching Nos. started. Unfortunately, those people who are serious collectors of bottles, don't participate on this forum - whether they're of the opinion they're too clever to need us, or whether it's the case that we're too clever for them, I'm not sure ;) So, we continue with uncertainty.
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It has become apparent from people's comments that these things are difficult to date by the sound of it. May be thats why there are so many in charity shops and boot sales. The production numbers used by the Victorians makes sense to me. I wander if there will be any definitive answer
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My understanding of the reason for having matching numbers is simply that the bottles and stoppers are ground/polished to fit individually, stoppers are unlikely to be interchangeable. Numbering them helps keep them matched up during and after production.
John
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Thank you John that's what i originally thought. I have three un numbered ones which, hopefully, may be early ones but I'm not sure. I have a few other three applied neck ring decanters all numbered. I'm treating these as victorian copies until proven otherwise. Although I buy these cheap I'm probably going to stop buying them in the future unless the seller is absolutely guaranteeing their date. It sounds like even experts are unsure about dating them. I've shown them to different people all with different opinions as to age.
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Antique glass is not an area I know much about, my interest has always been more 20th century. The best way to learn though is to pick up and handle as much as possible, that way you begin to notice the more subtle clues. Oh, and read as many books on the subject that you can lay your hands on, unfortunately no book is likely to be entirely error free!
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Yes you are right. The problem I see is that each person that I talk to has a different opinion as to what is old glass the other problem is whether what you are looking at is the real thing . I have shown one 3 ring decanter with a number on to one antique glass dealer and he stated 1830s. Another antique glass dealer called it victorian.
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after a while it becomes apparent that there many collectors and dealers who are obviously genuinely unaware of the extent to which patterns/styles have been copied over the past two centuries, and a mid C19 copy of an C18 bottle will often acquire as much wear as the original. All compounded by the fact that internet sales - for the sort of glass we're speaking of - frequently has glass attributed with unreliable dating.
I think most people would agree with John's comments as to the reason for matching Nos., though surprisingly there are some good quality bottles out there that for whatever reason are un-numbered - normally, there's no difficulty in sensing when a stopper doesn't match.
The offer is still on the table for people here to post pix of their bottles - with matching Nos. - that are undeniably pre 1850.
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I took my number 5 marked decanter to another dealer on worcester yesterday. The dealer had been selling glass for over thirty years. He told me that the decanter is a common type dated to c 1830 - 1835. He had no doubts about it dating to this period. He also explained that numbers on these are actually quite commonly found but are often mistakenly dismissed as being victorian. He showed me a BADA certified decanter also of the 1830s with a matching number on the lip and the stopper. The numbers appear to have been used prior to the victorian period.
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glad to hear you're taking your bottles out for walkies - did you ask him Martyn how then do we tell the difference between a William the IV example and a much later Victorian or even 1920s bottle - all of the same appearance? ;D
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Yes to some extend. He told me to look at tree sharpness of the cutting as later ones are usually polished and smoother. Grey or smoky tones are a good sign as are presence of inclusions. Irregularity of cutting is also a sign of more primitive techniques. He showed me a victorian period one and it was much brighter and tree cutting was smoother. It does not sound an raft science though.
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thanks Martyn - my personal thoughts on your dealer's comment are ....................
For British lead based cut glass material there should be a noticeable sharpness on almost all examples up until the first or second decade of the C20, when it became the norm to use acid to speed up the process of removing the grinding marks from within the mitres etc. This use of acid on cut glass, was a C20 innovation and completely separate from the C19 practice of using an acid mix of hydrofluoric/sulphuric, as practiced by the cameo workers and intaglio engravers.
As for the colour or hue of the glass, I've noticed there are people who will swear blind that some early C19 glass is found with a clear white appearance, but as I've thought often, I'd rather have a nod toward a leaden hue rather than something that's too bright/white. But here my comments are rather subjective, and I can't substantiate, with provenance, my thoughts one way or the other - but I sense there might be more pieces out there, originating in the early C19, that have a grey tone rather than white/bright.
Irregularity of cutting is a very good point, and I'd go with this suggestion as being on of the better pointers to age.
Unfortunately, in the 1920s there was a renaissance/passion for olde worlde styles, and if you read McConnell's entry for Mrs. Graydon-Stannus - for example - it's frightening to see the extent such copyists went to in order to produce C20 glass that looked more like C18 glass, than C18 glass actually did. Hers was perhaps an extreme example - the lady was a forger who set out to deceive, deliberately - but there have been other C20 makers such as W/Fs., E & L., and Walsh, who made 'Georgian style' glass, in the C20, on an industrial scale - much of it tinted or coloured to make the copy more akin to the originals.
Hill-Ouston's reproductions in the 1930s replicated the Bristol Blue and amethyst colours on Georgian patterns on a massive scale, much of which was apparently sold in the States - so, you can imagine the problems that material is now causing.
To quote McConnell again …...…...…..""Most British fine glassworks made extensive ranges of 'Georgian' reproduction wares between 1900 and 1939.""
With respect to your dealer in Worcester, I'd still maintain that differentiating between originals and copies of the material we've been discussing is more difficult that is imagined.
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Thanks Paul. I'm sure that you are right and more experienced than myself. There must still be thousands of real ones out there. It is probably the case that some real early ones have been dismissed and vice versa. I used to collect German militaria and still lots of it. There was a scare a while back when a book was published. This book stated that certain versions of the RZM inspection mark were fake. People disposed of loads of good pieces fearing that they were fake. Items were then seen in museums which had had them since the end of WW2 proving them to be genuine. Eurgh this in mind I may never truely know which of my decanters are early but hopefully some of them are. I will just appreciate them for what they are; nice looking items and possibly quite historic