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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Jeffingtons on January 10, 2020, 08:41:43 PM

Title: Thoughts on this 19th Century wine glass?
Post by: Jeffingtons on January 10, 2020, 08:41:43 PM
Hi
Bit of providence for me today. Popped into a junk shop and walked out with this goblet for absolutely nothing (owner was downsizing his stock and had no change so just gave it me!).  It's a bit fancier than the simple stuff I usually go for. 

It has a polished pontil, bladed knop and air stem, the cutting is sharp and it has a nice ring to it if not overly resonant. My thoughts are mid 19th century. Could it possibly even be as early as 1830s.

Also, where might it be from? Stourbridge?

Look forward to any thoughts about it.
Title: Re: Thoughts on this 19th Century wine glass?
Post by: Jeffingtons on January 10, 2020, 08:43:12 PM
Base pic
Title: Re: Thoughts on this 19th Century wine glass?
Post by: Paul S. on January 10, 2020, 10:10:37 PM
hi - are we being a tad wishful in our thinking ;D   …………….   the scale cutting, relief diamonds, polished pontil depression, air stem and bladed knop don't on their own tell us this originated c. 1850 - or even earlier.                   All of these features have been copied many times in the later C19 and C20 - Walsh I seem to recall used most of these on some of their drinking glasses  -  in particular scale cutting I believe.

Please tell us what in particular suggests to you this is 170 years or more in age?   -    is it a combination of some or all of the above features?
Other characteristics such as ...……….    wear, colour of glass, size of foot, seeds possibly, and a v.g. lead glass ring, are more likely help -  we've said recently that so many of the earlier features have been copied on later glasses, which makes for confusion, though it doesn't automatically rule out a big age for your glass, but we need to go through all the hoops before reaching a conclusion.
You don't mention wear  -  so waiting to hear more news on this point.

As to origin, you may be correct, but I think it's probably impossible to say for sure unless someone recognizes this particular pattern.    I think the best bit about this one is the cost free aspect. :)
Title: Re: Thoughts on this 19th Century wine glass?
Post by: LEGSY on January 10, 2020, 10:20:59 PM
I love the look of this particular glass is it of a good weight hopefully :) with the large scales
cuts not sure but my take is late 19th at the earliest...Looks a very nice Sunday dinner wine
glass and super functional a little too crystal white the metal color for me to be much earlier
Title: Re: Thoughts on this 19th Century wine glass?
Post by: Jeffingtons on January 10, 2020, 10:41:45 PM
Maybe a little wishful. There's wear to the base, there is a small inclusion in the bowl, the base is as wide as the bowl, there's a lack of symmetry in the stem. Plenty to make me think it's at least Victorian. 240 grams in weight. Good solid glass for nothing 
Title: Re: Thoughts on this 19th Century wine glass?
Post by: LEGSY on January 11, 2020, 12:27:43 PM
 ;D Where is that Antique shop?? :)
Title: Re: Thoughts on this 19th Century wine glass?
Post by: Jeffingtons on January 11, 2020, 01:14:25 PM
Bristol. He has a couple of small decorative coloured pieces of Victorian glass I think might appeal to a few people on here. I don't know enough about it myself though.
Title: Re: Thoughts on this 19th Century wine glass?
Post by: Jeffingtons on February 01, 2020, 10:09:23 AM
Bit of free time this morning so I thought I'd take a few better photos of this glass.  I've some more observations and thoughts to add: 
  • The inclusion I mentioned in an earlier post at the base of the bowl, on closer inspection with my glasses on is a rogue air bubble.
  • I've had a look at the cuts in the strawberry diamond pattern through my loupe, and can see the cutters marks that couldn't be polished out.
  • The central blade knop is very unsymmetrically off centre.

    • I really love the scalloped cutting above the strawberry cut. Beautifully done,very attractive.
    Title: Re: Thoughts on this 19th Century wine glass?
    Post by: Jeffingtons on February 01, 2020, 10:10:43 AM
    More pics
    Title: Re: Thoughts on this 19th Century wine glass?
    Post by: Laird on February 02, 2020, 08:00:29 AM
    For me, this very handsome glass is mid to late Victorian, and I come to this conclusion because of the elaborateness of the design. It's a 'fancy' glass that has been designed with eye appeal in mind, and in consequence very attractive.
    Title: Re: Thoughts on this 19th Century wine glass?
    Post by: Paul S. on February 02, 2020, 09:48:17 AM
    the suggested date period of 1850s to 1890s may well be correct, but as we discussed earlier in this thread, the particular cutting styles on this glass don't in themselves tell us when this piece was made  ………    it's the eternal problem whereby C19 and C20 workers reproduced earlier styles of cutting - sometimes much earlier.
    I get the impression that if you take a loupe to most glass that's heavily cut you will find remnants of grinding somewhere within the mitres  -  hopefully not too much, but it may be impossible to remove all evidence without excessive detriment to the appearance of the cutting.

    Also, just to add …………..    I'm not seeing any strawberry cutting/strawberry diamonds on this glass.             
    The graduated diamonds below the midriff of this bowl are simply 'relief diamonds, which apparently date, commercially, from c. 1780s.            Sadly the older the piece of glass then generally the more their points suffer from damage, and obviously, these diamonds aren't really in relief to the surface of the glass  -  it's just an optical illusion.
    Strawberry diamonds start c. 1800, and are additional decoration on the flat table tops of diamonds that are cut  -   similarly to relief diamonds, except that the four mitre cuts - at right angles to each other - are placed such that the diamond is produced with a flat top and not a point.
    It's on this flat top of the diamond that a further (usually sixteen) shallow mitres are cut 'criss-cross' fashion, to produce a series of fine diamonds  -  doubtless a skilled job.

    Scale cutting was used much on earlier drinking glasses to decorate their stems - probably starts c. 1730-1740  -  always looks good  -  and as mentioned earlier, Walsh used this design in the C20.

    Try G. Bernard Hughes book 'English Glass For The Collector 1660 - 1860'  - mine of information on mostly clear cut glass, of all sorts, shapes and sizes of table glass  -  it's where it get most of my information from ;)            There are copies currently on Abe Books for less than a fiver  -  you couldn't get a better bargain than that!!

    Anyway, I'm still no wiser as to the date of the glass shown here - it might even be early C20
    Title: Re: Thoughts on this 19th Century wine glass?
    Post by: Jeffingtons on February 02, 2020, 10:49:11 AM
    Ah, I was told it was Strawberry cut. Thanks for the explanation Paul. I shall check the book out.

    I have a completely open mind as to the age of this glass. I haven't found any drinking glasses remotely similar from any era either online or in the books I have access to. The only things I've seen where the cutting is remotely comparable is a few pieces of tableware listed as around 1820, and a couple of rummers listed 1850 but in the regency style. I'd like to get my hands on some of the reproduction early 1900s Georgian designs mentioned in the fakes and repros section of Hadjamach to see how it compares to those.
    Title: Re: Thoughts on this 19th Century wine glass?
    Post by: Jeffingtons on August 16, 2020, 10:44:23 PM
    I've spent several months on this glass now, and in the meantime picked up a few other early 19th century glasses which i think give me the insight I needed to clarify what this glass is. I'm going to stick my neck out and say I believe it to be around 1830ish and a regency to Victorian transitional piece. The foot, stem cutting and bowl joint are all consistent with regency period glasses I own. The bowl shape is in late Georgian and early Victorian patterns in my reference books, and are also consistent with late Georgian/early Victorian glasses I own.