Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Paul S. on January 22, 2020, 04:20:56 PM
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in an effort to inflame passions for the humble goblet and tumbler, here then are those designs Registered with the BoT, as opposed to (probably) the far greater number which were not.
The opener - 42635 - is from 1847 and came out of the Richardson stable, when they were at their height with what they called opaline, their patented Vitrified pieces, and the craze for Greek and Roman decoration.
Not so easy to accept that this was pressed, perhaps it wasn't - the appearance automatically makes us think it's a three-part hand-made glass, like so many drinking glasses with distinct feet, stems and bowls. Never owned one, so unsure as to whether pressed or hand-made.
Believe the decoration is transfer printed, and the guy with the goatskin water holder is presumably the image depicted on the other side of the glass.
Probably described as 'opaline', though whether that simply means white opaque glass, or the opal hued stuff I've no idea. These pieces would probably have had a diamond lozenge plus the wording 'Richardson Vitrified', though if this wasn't a pressed item, then assume the lozenge would also be applied by transfer - or painted?
Of course, you'll never see an example - since this one is neither humble nor inexpensive, and those remaining are either in museums or with folk who have very deep pockets - there was a very similar piece, though with a different transfer image, sold in the Michael Parkington sale at Christie's in 1998, and the pre-sale estimate for the goblet and a water jug was £400 - £600 then.
After this one, everything else can only be downhill.
Reg. 46523 - never heard of John Fell Christy - but the address said Stangate Glass Works, Lambeth, so assume they were manufacturers.
An attractive goblet - not sure of the colouring on the stem part, and again a piece that we are very unlikely to find.
Reg. 49021 - here we are down to the utility clear glass tumbler - not unattractive design - don't recall every seeing an example though.
Lastly - Reg. 54664 from Oct. 1848. Why I've cropped the picture and lost an image which would have included the Rd. No. I've no idea, but can guarantee this is 54664 from Joseph Green of B'ham and first Registered on 2nd October 1848.
Others will be slow coming and a mixture of tumblers and goblets. Hope they are of some interest and might even help someone somewhere to put a name to a design. They will cease in February 1884, which is the date when each separate Registered CLASS ceased having its own dedicated series of Nos. After that date almost all classes were lumped together by the BoT, and numbered consecutively. It then becomes very time consuming going through records of twelve other CLASSES in order to locate the odd glass Registration.
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I've slogged through those post 1884 books Paul, it is indeed very tiresome. The later ones tend to be drawn on standard A4 sized card. There is a big fade off of tumblers / goblets post 1880 as the pressed trade moved away from the UK manufacturers. There are a couple of tumbler registrations for the Manchester firms post 1884, but the designs are remarkably unremarkable.
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Hi Neil - yes, quite agree with you, and generally the only time I research designs after 1884 - and I have spent a lot of time doing just that - is if someone here requests images of a particular Reg. No., plus I've also looked through much of that later period for my own research.
I think what most surprised me with the post 1884 archive books was
both the size of the books - and the vast amount of textile and wallpaper pattern Registrations.
Most of the tumbler and goblet Registrations are utility in nature, nothing like the Richardson design, above - hardly exciting, but there's much satisfaction having found a piece in the wild, and then being able to match it to the original factory drawing.
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Thank you for showing these, Paul.
There is a dearth of detailed information about all the early glass design registrations, either in the literature or online) so I will add these details to the GMB RD database a.s.a.p.
Fred.
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hello Fred - thanks as always for transferring all Registered details to the GMB Rd. database. Goblets and tumblers - at least the utility clear glass bog standard sort - have probably never had much of a following, so information is less than good. I've more to come, though suspect there are more tumblers than goblets, and details will be a little slow in appearing.
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Some notes concerning the 4 registered designs in the opening post:
RD 42635, registered 12 April 1847 by W[illiam] Hayden] B[enjamin & J[onathan] Richardson, [Wordsley Glass Flintworks], Wordsley, Stourbridge. Class 3.
Shown on page 289 of 'Victorian Decorative Glass' by Mervyn Gulliver with the following description: "Design for a goblet decorated with a transfer printed picture of two figures carrying water containers". Interestingly, shown alongside is a drawing from the Richardson's RD 42634 of the same date, described as "Design for a water jug decorated with a transfer printed picture of two figures carrying large water containers".
RD 46523, registered 25 October 1847 by John Fell Christy & Co., Stangate Glass Works, Lambeth. Class 3.
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1087/vase-a-j-f/
shows an enamelled glass vase decorated in the Classical Greek style made ca. 1849 from the Stangate Glass Works. . "Companies such as that of J. F. Christy, whose speciality was painted decoration, looked to Greek 'red-figure' ceramics for ideas... Here J. F. Christy has chosen the simplest, handle-less shape but seeks to imitate the ware itself with black glass and painting in red enamel. The source has not been identified for the image of a man, not quite a satyr with a tail only, holding the bridle of a rearing ass. In 1849 the company was given an award by the Society of Arts for 'specimens of enamelled glass' ."
https://glassian.org/Prism/Patent/GB1841D742/drawing.html
shows a Patent design registration for No. 742 · Improved Coal Plate · D IIa; Registered by John Fell Christy & Compy. of Stangate Glass Works, New Palace Road, Lambeth, in July, 1841. This appears to be a circular coal-hole cover {presumably of cast iron} with four circular glass inserts.
See also
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST29/
and from
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,51033.msg289769.html#msg289769
reply#76: 'Very little is known about the glassworks of J.F. Christy at Lambeth. Surviving examples attributable to his firm all date from the late 1840s, when he was producing painted opaline glass in the manner of Richardson's of Stourbridge, who were the leading producers of painted glass at this time. Like Richardson's, he produced ornamental wares inspired by Greek vases and by contemporary French opaline glass.' [see also RD 42635 above].
RD 49021, registered 17 January 1848 by John Davies, Stourbridge, Worcestershire. Class 3.
On 24th January 1846, John Davis leased Wheeley's Brettell Lane Glasshouses from William Seager Wheeley for twenty-one years. In 1850, Davis formed a parnership with William Greathead and Richard Green. Greathead had worked for William Gammon, glass manufacturer of Aston near Birmingham, then from 1836 to 1843 at Hawkes' Dudley Flint Glassworks, the last two years as a partner, then following the failure of Hawkes', a further seven years at Badger's Phoenix Glassworks. Richard Green had been involved in the glass trade since joining Hawkes in 1837 at the age of fifteen. John Davis dominated the partnership. He lived with his wife and family in Brettell Lane.
RD 54664, registered by Joseph Green, , Birmingham, Warwickshire, on 2 October 1848. Class 3.
No record in Grace's 1835 Birmingham Directory.
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There's a line in the Pottery Gazette that says the early pressers of glass were Bacchus, Molineaux Webb, and Davis, Greathead & Green
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marvellous contribution Fred - thanks. Gulliver was the one place I didn't look for the Richardson Regs. In fact the water jug shape/design for Rd. 42634, in Gulliver, is exactly the same design as the jug which accompanied the goblet in the Parkington sale, except that the decoration on the auction items appear to show different scenes compared to Gulliver. Christie's entry reads
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"A Richardson's 'Vitrified' opaline jug and goblet' - the oviform jug painted in sepia etc. etc.
. " appears they overlooked that the decoration was transfer printed, and Rd. Nos. not included in their catalogue. However the house did make reference to Hugh Wakefield's book 'Nineteenth Century British Glass' which does include information on these items
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.. Wakefield was published 1982, but Gulliver's work was still four years away from publication at that date - so likely that the only place you might see images of both Reg. Nos. was in Wakefield.
You might get the lady with the big stick to change the Gulliver page No. to read 259.
Presumably the jug couldn't have been pressed, but I'm still unsure about the goblet - or do we think this was made traditionally in three parts?
Some of those Richardson group scenes for transfer printing, give me a laugh - it's the cavorting postures that look very posed.
thanks again - will try for some more items by the weekend.
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Paul, from what little I know of 1840s Richardson pieces, I don't think that the Richardson RD 42635 goblet would have been pressed; I imagine that the easiest way of manufacturing such a standard shape then would have been traditional hand-blowing.
Richardson certainly did produce early pressed glass items, though - Hajdamach (British Glass 1800-1914) shows a Richardson pressed glass tumbler in page 335 (Plate 302) and two designs for pressed glass sugar bowls on pages 336 (plate 305) and 307 (plate 306) [all dated1840s]. Plate 302 also shows a pressed glass tumbler from a design registered by Benjamin Richardson in 1849.
Neil,The earliest pressed glass piece from a registered design that I have come across has been RD 58584, registered by Thomas Gammon of Birmingham on 18 April 1849 (see photos) and I find it interesting that William Greathead had worked with Thomas Gammon prior to his partnership with Davis and Green in 1850.
Fred.
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thanks Fred - expect you're right about the goblet's manufacture. Might look in the V. & A. gallery some time and if they have one of these will ask for a look. I've pix of a Thomas Gammon tumbler which will be in the next batch.
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here is the next installment - though unfortunately, an absence of goblets in this one
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one
Reg. 62918 dated 12th October 1849 - Thomas Gammon
two
Reg. 62923 dated 13th October 1849 - Richardson
three
.. Reg. 64172 dated 19th November 1849 - Badger Bros.
four
Reg. 69516 dated 23rd May 1850 - George Sherwood
All U.K. BoT Registrations up until January 1884 are included in what is known as the 'lozenge' period - the familiar diamond mark found on much mid C19 pressed glass - such pieces, in theory, should carry some evidence of the diamond Registration Mark. Unfortunately, there are occasions when not all details within the diamond are legible - for such instances, hopefully these images might help.
If anyone is able to put some flesh on the bones of the above Rd. Nos., that would be marvellous. thanks. :)
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Notes on Thomas Gammon's RD 62918, registered 12 October 1849 - Parcel 6:
Oddly, I don't have a photo of the Thomas Gammon tumbler (which is press-moulded glass), though it is shown in plate 302 on page 335 of Hajdamach's 'British Glass 1800-1914'. Alongside the tumbler is shown a lidded pickle jar from the same design.
See photos below of a pickle jar (which definitely has the registry date lozenge), a pedestal sugar bowl and round-sided rummer/goblet (also with lozenges), and an unmarked rummer/goblet (which appears to be the tumbler with an applied stem and foot - all from RD 62918.
https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/1835_Directory_of_Birmingham#GLASS_FLINT_MANUFACTURERS
1835 Directory of Birmingham : Gammon Wm. and Son, Great Brook St. [I presume that Thomas Gammon was William Gammon's son].
https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/William_Gammon_and_Co
William Gammon and Co of Great Brook Street, Belmont, Birmingham ;1880-1920; One of the principal Birmingham glass works.
www.great-glass.co.uk/glass notes/mane-g.htm
Gammon, Thomas Birmingham, England (1849 - 1852) The Belmont Glass Works. Very early manufacturer of pressed domestic glassware (5 designs registered, 1849 to 1852)
https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/info/50064/birminghams_archaeology/964/a_pumping_station_glassworks_and_pottery_kiln_at_ashted_circus/1
Belmont Glassworks and Belmont Row Glassworks:
Although glassmaking in the West Midlands is mainly associated with the Stourbridge area, it was an important Birmingham industry as well. 18 glassworks were established in Birmingham in 18th and 19th centuries, mostly alongside canals, which were ideally suited to carry the bulky fuels and raw materials required by this industry and its bulky and fragile products.
In 1803 the Belmont site, alongside the Digbeth Branch Canal, was owned by a china and earthenware manufacturer, and by 1806 cut glass was being made there. Pottery making ceased by 1807 but glassmaking continued. Three glass cones are shown on a site map of about 1855, by which time the works occupied both sides of the canal. One of the glassworks' boundary walls is still visible.
Excavations revealed part of one of the cones and remains of other glassworks buildings marked on the 1855 map, together with a circular brick structure which was probably an earlier glass cone, that had gone out of use before 1855.
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Notes on RD 62923, registered on 13th October 1849 - Parcel 2 by W.H.B. & J. Richardson:
Photo (alongside two Thomas Gammon pieces) on plate 302, page 335 of Hajdamach's "British Glass 1800-1914".
Hajdamach simply decribes it as 'Tumbler, press moulded and registered by Benjamin [sic] Richardson in 1949".
The design representation is on page 260 of Gulliver, described as "Design for a cut glass tumbler", though TNA
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=glass+design+62923
describes it merely as "Tumbler"
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Notes on tumbler RD 64172, registered on 19th November 1849 - Parcel 6 by Badger Bros. & Co., Dudley, Worcestershire:
Apart from the design representation, I know of no actual example of a piece from this design.
They traded as Badger Brothers & Co., cut glass manufacturers, and a design for a wine glass from the Badger glasshouses in shown at the bottom right of plate 53 on page 72 of Hajdamach, so I'm not sure if the RD 64172 would be blown and cut or press-moulded, though Hajdamach (page 335 of"British Glass 1800-1914" says that "Richardson's in Wordsley and the Badger Brothers in Dudley pioneered the new skills [ of press-moulding glass] in the Stourbridge District.
In 1820, Isaac and Thomas Badger, The two oldest sons of Isaac Badger Senior, a prominent Dudley builder, occupied the Phoenix Glassworks which stood at east end of Hall Street in Dudley, at the back of shops nearly opposite King Street. A narrow passage at the rear is still known as Phoenix Passage. The Phoenix Glassworks had been built by Phillip Penn some time between 1772 and 1780, and in 1810 had a fourteen pot furnace which Benjamin Richardson described as "The largest furnace that I ever saw".
The Badger brothers were already coal masters, bankers, slum landlords, and significant manufacturers of nails, chains, vices, malt mills etc. . It appears that their youngest brother, Septimus, became a partner in 1839. The Badgers (father and sons) were prominent in the political life of Dudley and held strong anti-Chartist view. They occupied the key posts of magistrates and Town Commissioners and were two of a small Tory clique that ruled the town for many years with the tacit approval of Lord Dudley . (How times have changed - NOT!).
The firm disappears about 1860, possibly due to the effects of having to close down the works in 1859 when all the factories took this action in an effort to modify the rules of the Glassmakers' Union. The cone was still standing in 1903, being used as a furniture works and warehouse by Charles Hale, and features in an advertisement with an aerial view of the premises.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=glass+design+badger
lists three early resign registrations for glass (including RD 64172) with another tumbler, RD 70377, registered in 1850.
There an interesting link to glass making in the Black Country
https://blackcountrymuse.com/apps/forums/topics/show/8882159-black-country-glassmaking-
in which appears "Glass Making in Dudley was also producing large quantities for the market of the time. In 1845, there were listed, four large manufacturers in the Town. A firm more noted for the early Coal trade than for Glass, T.S.and I Badger, operated from a factory in Hall Street, Dudley. I presume this would have been Flint Glass, and as there is no mention of finished product like cut glass onsite, it must have been contracted out. "
Fred.
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Notes on tumbler RD 69516, registered on 23 May 1850 - Parcel 4 by George Sherwood and Company, Eccleston Flint Glass Works, near St Helens, Lancashire:
http://www.great-glass.co.uk/glass%20notes/mans-s.htm
Sherwood, George , St Helens, England (c 1850). The Eccleston Flint Glass Works. Pressed drinking-glasses (4 designs registered in 1850).
Eccleston is approximately 1.7 miles WNW of the centre of St. Helens, but I have no information as to the exact location of the Glass Works.
I don't have a photo of the tumbler as per the design representation but I do have photos of a press-moulded tumbler marked with the appropriate registry date lozenge but with the addition of a hot-applied handle (thus making it a tankard or what the Victorians would probably called a 'can').
Fred.
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well, what can I say Fred - your absence from the GMB would leave a hole unfillable by anyone else. Sincere thanks for your efforts in adding so much to the rather simple Representations images. :)
from my little knowledge of C19 utility glass pieces, I understand that adding handles to tumblers etc., was a not too uncommon practice. and yes, you're correct in using the word 'cans' for pieces so modified.
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One thing to bear in mind with these early pressed registrations from the Midlands is that Rice Harris, situated at Five Ways in Birmingham, running 5 furnaces, was the largest pressed glass producer. Statistically all unidentified pieces of pressed glass in the 1840s are slightly more likely to come from this works than anywhere else. The Pottery Gazette calls it "the largest house in the trade at that time, and I think the largest ever known either before or after".
The Gazette has a list of members of the society of glass blowers in 1846, the biggest numbers that I can put to a glassworks are:
Rice Harris 68
Richardsons 49
Falcon Glass Works 32
Molineaux Webb 29
Percival Vickers 26
Also of possible help is the 1839 list of flint glass makers for the Midlands:
BIRMINGHAM:
Bacchus and Green
Biddle and Co
Gammon and Son
John Gold
Rice Harris
Shakespear and Son
Thompson and Shaw
DUDLEY:
Thomas Hawkes and Co
Badger Brothers
Guest, Wood, and Guest
STOURBRIDGE:
M and W Grazebrook
William Hodgetts
Littlewood and Berry
WHB and J Richardson
Rufford and Walker
Shepherd and Webb
Silvers and Stevens
Stevens and Son
Wheeley and Davis
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a few more
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one
. Reg. 70377 dated 17.07.1850 - Badger Bros.
two
. Reg 70622 dated 24.07.1850 - George J. Green
three ...
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Reg. 95056 dated 14.02.1854 - Benjamin Richardson
four
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.. Reg. 96004 dated 03.06.1854 - Benjamin Richardson
it's a great loss to posterity and our interest that we're unable to link pieces to some famous names from that early 1840s period - for example, presumably Chance were making their own designs (in B'ham), but do we know who might have made pieces for Crosse & Blackwell (in London) - at least I assume they weren't making their own glass. A couple of early Registrations for C. & B. (27232 and 33765) were for 'Preserve & Pickle Bottles - presumably made by one of the houses on Neil's list.
Can't see the Richardson wine glass with rope twist stem in Hajdamach's 'Richardson Dynasty' chapter - anyone know if there's an image elsewhere of this design?
Don't you just adore those athletic looking limbs - nice bloke I understand. ;)
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Notes about tumbler RD 70622, registered on24 July 1850 - Parcel 7 by George J. Green, Birmingham:
TNA's registration details summary reveals that the registrant's full name was George Joseph Green with an address at Broad Street, Birmingham. They also shows that Green registered another design for glass, ' a 'set of glass ware', RD 74749, on 21 July 1851, and that his address was 295 Broad Street, Birmingham.
It appears that 295 Broad Street, Birmingham, was the site of the Etna or Ζtna Glassworks, and there has been a longish thread on the GMB
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,62885.msg353024.html#msg353024
regarding the glassworks and some of its proprietors.
To 'summarise' it relevant to this thread:
Morgan Rollason & Co. were the proprietors of the Ζtna [sic.] Glassworks in at least 1837. By early 1839, Golds's patent Cut Glass Company were trading as glass- makers and glass cutters at Charlotte Street [?Birmingham or ?London} and the Ζtna Glassworks, Birmingham] as a partnership between John Gold[who, in 1834, had taken out a patent for a machine to cut broad flutes in glass], William Parker, Edward Parker, Nathan Kimberley, Samuel Shakespear, Theodore Moilliet, J. Hawker Gedford and James Geddes. This partnership was dissolved in March 1839,and John Gold who continued as sole proprietor of the glassworks. the Ζtna / Etna Glassworks then passed Joseph Green & Sons by 1842.
The firm of Joseph Green & Sons was a partnership between John Green (father) and his two sons, George Joseph and James. ) They traded at the Etna Glass Works; Birmingham, and at Upper Thames-street, London, as Glass Manufacturers and China Warehousemen. under the style or firm of Joseph Green and Sons, until the partnership was been dissolved, by mutual consent, as from the 31st day of December 1842.
George J. Green seems to have carried on as the sole proprietor of the Etna Glassworks until 1857, when he was declared bankrupt on 15 May 1857. His address was given as No. 3, York-road, Edgbaston, Birmingham, previously of the Harborne-road, in Birmingham.
There seems to be a gap in formation until Alfred Arculus took over the Etna Glassworks in 1860 and continued there until at least 1914.
http://www.great-glass.co.uk/glass%20notes/mana-b.htm
Arculus & Co, Birmingham, England (1864 - 1941): Etna Works. Formerly R W Winfield (Brassfounders). Alfred Arculus, Joseph Warry (accounts clerks) bought the company out & re-named it (1875). Lighting glass, cut, cased & coloured tableware, paperweights (including reproduction antiques) (3 designs registered from 1866 to 1880). Bought out 1922 by T J Hands & Co. Taken over by John Walsh Walsh in 1931. Production ceased 1941, when factory destroyed by German landmine.
https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/broad-st.30581/page-32
indicates that the Ζtna Glassworks in Broad Street was shown as such on the 1890 OS map (see threads #635, 636 & 638). Look along the extreme left hand margin, towards the bottom, to the left of 'Market Hall'.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/mapsheet.aspx?compid=55193&sheetid=10098&ox=325&oy=2031&zm=1&czm=1&x=5&y=25
The whole area has since been heavily redeveloped and the site of 295 Broad Street is now completely altered.
Fred.
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sincere thanks Fred, as always. Your reference to a "set of glass ware', RD 74749, on 21 July 1851" - if I have pix of this Reg. is it something you would like to see, or have we had the images here previously?
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Yes please, Paul - I would like to see pix of RD 74749,registered on 21 July 1851, if you have them, as we certainly haven't had them previously.
Fred.
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Fred - rather than add your request for this additional George Joseph Green Registration in with this thread, which is specifically for tumblers and goblets, I'll make a new post within next few minutes.
Would appear typo regarding the Reg. No., and believe should read 79749, which agrees with date of 21st July 1851 and same Registrant - any problems do shout.
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Thank you, Paul.
You are quite correct. I did have a typo in the RD number of the George J. Green set of glassware registered on 21 July 1851. It should indeed have been RD 79749 (and the appropriate Parcel number was 6).
Fred.
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a few more Registrations for similar products, which hope might be of interest
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F. & C. Osler were exceptionally successful, and much can be found and read on the internet detailing their long and illustrious glass making career.
Of little interest to us directly - unless of course you collect large scale glass fountains or chandeliers - is the centrepiece fountain they made for the Great Exhibition in 1851 - alas now no more, presumably, since the entire building and contents burned to the ground after the structure was moved to Crystal Palace, south London (that name I assume deriving from the glass edifice) - unless this spectacular piece was removed and escaped the ravages of fire.
https://wilkinson-ltd.com/osler-faraday
Osler Registered many designs, though not sure if we have many - or any - of them on the Board.
Again, I've looked at Hajdamach's chapter on the Richardson Dynasty, thinking I might see some product of theirs that might show the pattern in item three, but nothing doing that I can see.
Joseph Lane isn't a name about which I have much knowledge, and as always my rather meagre notes always benefit from the input of others who seem to know vastly more about glass manufacturers. My sincere thanks in advance. :)
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Re: Edward Moore & Co.'s RD 141642 tumbler, registered on 29 June 1861 - Parcel 4.
Jenny Thompson describes the design registration as being for a 'pattern' rather than a particular shape.
I don't have a photos of the RD 141642 tumbler but I do have some photos to show of a decanter from the pattern.
Fred.
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thanks Fred. Looking again at the Moore pattern, which appears to be shown on a tumbler, it does look to be unusual insofar as the moulding does come fully up to the rim of the glass, which might make for a less comfortable situation when placing to the lips for supping.
Who knows, maybe they didn't in fact actually produce this pattern on tumbler - just other shapes - but I'm speculating again, and unwise. :)
McConnell devotes a chapter to moulded decanters which appear to have been produced in most decades of the C19, and he includes the name of Moore, though he doesn't refer to this particular patter for 141642, or mention any specific Reg. Nos. Sowerby get the lions share of attention, and he reproduces pages from various pattern books - Sowerby and P. V. - that is a good looking bottle.
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Continuing with four more Registrations, this time all goblets/wines, and my assumption is that all except the Apsley Pellat wine, are pressed.
one................ Reg. 147792 dated 19.12.1861 - David H. Jacobs
.. I don't see any mention of this name in Ray Slack's book, or Hajdamach, so am assuming Jacobs was an agent, but I could be wrong and am sure others will have more to add on the subject. Don't recall seeing any pieces carrying this Rd. No. - perhaps others have - would be good if there was an example to show here.
two
Reg. 175421 dated 14.06.1864 - James Derbyshire
.. this date of Registration doesn't appear to tie up with any of the dates shown on Ray Slack's page 116, where he portrays four of Derbyshire's goblet designs. Hopefully, either Fred or Neil will be able to add more regarding this Registration. As we've commented in recent days, elsewhere, the picture of the Derbyshire goblets in Ray Slack's book are poor, so not the easiest of images to view when trying to determine which designs are being discussed, though assume the dates are accurate and sufficient to decide which Registration No. is being discussed.
three
...
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Reg. 184916 dated 17.03.1865 - Apsley Pellat
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a name to conjure with and famous in the world of glassmaking and innovation. This item is surely a traditionally made three part drinking glass - though for exactly which sort of booze I'm not sure.
Pellat Registered two designs on this one date
.. 184916 and 184917, the latter being for a design for decanter. Understandably, Slack has mis-read a poor Register entry - this is reproduced in the next post - and it's easy to see how the final digit of the first of these Nos. looks like a zero, so if you have his book and wish to correct the No., it should read 184916 - and not 184910.
I doubt we've seen an example of this design on the GMB.
four ............... Reg. 189321 dated 25.08.1865 - James Derbyshire & Bro. .... Hopefully, perhaps Fred or Neil might be able to add more on this item - hopefully someone here will have seen or own an example of this pattern.
pix attached here of the Registrations, for the four glasses, as above, and one picture over for the Register page.
Any queries or complaints and I'm absent for six months, though of course any additional information that adds to the interest for these Registrations is always welcome, and thanks for looking. :)
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Register page for the Pellat designs for 184916 and 184917, as discussed above ...
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I have the James Derbyshire 1864 goblet, the 1865 one is yet to turn up anywhere...
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many thanks for posting Neil - I wonder why the slightly later design should be silent so far.
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Notes regarding goblet RD 147792 of 19 December 1861 - Parcel 4.
From TNA online registration summary:
Proprietor: David Henry Jacobs, 64 Crown Street, Finsbury Square, London. Item description: Pressed fluted leg mirror bowl goblet.
I haven't come across the term 'mirror bowl' before. Am I correct in thinking that it refers to the oval 'thumbprints' on the bowl?
There is another David Henry Jacobs registration from 64 Crown Street, Finsbury Square: RD 192792, registered 23 November 1865 - Parcel 9 ; pressed jug and mitre fluted bowl goblet pressed.
https://jacobstree.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Miscellaneous_London_Directories_1800-1838.pdf
shows that there were lots of Jacobs family members, many extensively involved in the glass trade in London, with several in the Finsbury/Finsbury Square area from the early 1800s through to the late 1830s, including in Crown Street, Finsbury, and some referring specifically to the occupants of 64 Crown Street.
In the early 1800s, Henry Jacobs seems to have been involved with (and possibly even the proprietor of) the Phoenix Glass Works, Phoenix Street, Soho, and is linked to an address in Crown Street [Finsbury]. I've drawn a blank, however, with researching the Phoenix Glass Works, Soho, as such.
In 1822, Henry Jacobs Jr (glass manufacturer) was at 64 Crown Street. In 1823/4 as a 'glass cutter & seller (flint)'. Henry Jacobs Jr. was aged about 29 at the time, so is probably the son of the Henry Jacobs mentioned in the early 1800s. In 1824, and in 1928, Henry Jacobs was still at 64 Crown Street as a 'glass manufacturer', with Philip Jacob & Son as 'glass warehouse' at the same address (then as 'cut glass warehouse') in 1828.
From the information I will present below, it seems that Henry Jacobs was the 'Son' in 'Philip Jacobs & Son, and that Henry's son, David Henry Jacobs was the registrant as above.
Prior to that, Holden's Directory 1805/07: Philip Jacobs, 25 Middlesex, Street, Whitechapel; glass cutter. in 1811, at 5 Middlesex Street as a glass dealer. 1817, at 14 Artlllery Passage, Bishopsgate, then in 1819 at the same address (but as glass dealer), then Philip Jacobs & Son (glass manufacturer).
Pigots Directory of 1832: Philip Jacobs & So, 64 Crown Street, Finsbury; glass cutter & seller (flint). Also, at 53 Crown Street, Finsbury: Henry Jacobs, glass cutter & seller (flint).
Pigots Directory of 1836: Philip Jacobs & Son, 64 Crown Street, Finsbury; plain and cut glass manufacturer.
Robson's Directory of 1838 : Philip Jacobs & Son, 64 Crown Street , Finsbury; glass warehouse.
From:
https://www.british-genealogy.com/forum/threads/93682-Seeking-Jacobs-in-London/page2
"Philip Jacobs let out 14 Artillery Passage as tenements in 1824. He did not live at the address but was at 22 Earl St , [then at] Crown St Finsbury in 1835, and his son Henry at 14 Mansell St in 1834 and 1841 64 Crown St. Philip was dead by 1845 and his son Henry died in 1862. Prior to that date Henry had been a bankrupt."
The London Post office Directory for 1843 lists Jacobs Philip & Son, wholesale glass warehouse, 64 Crown street, Finsbury. (Also listed was yet another Jacobs involved in the glass trade in Crown Street - Jacobs Abraham, wholesale glass warehouse, 14 & 15 Crown street, Finsbury).
I have no hard information as to what happened at 64 Crown Street between 1845 and when David Henry Jacobs appearing there as 'Proprietor' in the registration details for RD 147792 of 19 December 1861 - Parcel 4.
This still begs the question as to what was David Henry Jacobs' involvement at 64 Crown Street, Finsbury Square. in 1861 and 1862 and how much of the business was as a manufacturer as opposed to glass cutters, glass dealers etc. ?
I have found a reference to David Henry Jacobs, (born 26 October 1823 in Shoreditch, London, and who died in 1904 in West Ham, Essex), and many more details about him and his family from
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Jacobs-2668#Biography
confirming that He is indeed the registrant of RDs 147792 and 192792, and that is also the grandson of Philip Jacobs and son of Henry Jacobs.
In the 1841 census, St Leonard, Shoreditch, 64 Crown Street: Philip Jacobs,70,Glass Manufacturer,Middlesex; David Henry Jacobs,15; Rachel Jacobs,15; Leah Jacobs,14.
1851 census: Shoreditch, London, 64 Crown Street: Henry Jacobs,Head,Mar,55,Glass Dealer,Stafford, Christ Church [Probably Christ Church Parish, Stafford Street, Marylebone); Elizabeth Jacobs,Wife,Mar,53,,Middlesex, St Botolphs; David Henry Jacobs,Son,Unm,26,Glass Dealer,Middlesex, Shoreditch; Servant.
1861 census: Shoreditch, London, 64 Queen Street. Henry Jacobs,Head,Mar,68,Glass Dealer,London, Middlesex; Elizabeth Jacobs,Wife,Mar,64,,London, Middlesex; David H Jacobs,Son,Unm,34,Glass Dealer,Shoreditch; Rachel Jacobs,Dau,Unm,30,,Shoreditch; Leonora [Leah] Jacobs,Dau,Unm,28,,Shoreditch; London; Louis H Nerwich,,,13,,Dublin, Ireland.
1871 census: Shoreditch, London, 7 Sun Street. David Henry Jacobs,Head,Mar,47,Glass Dealer,Shoreditch, Middlesex; Elizabeth Jacobs,Mother,Wid,64,,London, Middlesex; Leah Jacobs,Sis,Unm,40,,Shoreditch, London.
Also in 1871, in London, David Henry Jacobs is 'Elected Master of The Ancient Guild of Gold and Silver Wyre Drawers (City Livery Company).'
1881 census: Shoreditch, London, 7 Sun Street. David Henry Jacobs,Head,Mar,57,Glass & China Dealer,Middlesex, Shoreditch' Leah Jacobs,Sis,Unm,52,,Middlesex, Shoreditch; also a domestic Servant.
1891 census: Shoreditch, London, 7 Sun Street. David Henry Jacobs,Head,M,67,Glass & China Dealer,London, 7 Sun Street, Finsbury; Mary Broadfoot,Boarder,Wid,50, Herefordshire; Florence Broadfoot aged 21, Single, Boarder, No occupation.
1901 census: Shoreditch, London, 7 Sun Street. D H Jacobs,Head,M,77,Glass Dealer,Shoreditch, London; M A Jacobs,Wife,M,61,,Herefordshire; also enumerated is A A Beaufort,Son,Single,25,Assistant, London, Islington but he has not been identified and may not be a relative. ?
Record of a marriage between David Henry Jacobs and Mary Ann Broadfoot between July and September 1900 and September 1900 [Shoreditch 1c 292]
1904 electoral register shows that David Henry Jacobs was still at 7, Sun Street Finsbury, in 1904. (presumably not long before his death).
Also in 1871, in London, David Henry Jacobs is 'Elected Master of The Ancient Guild of Gold and Silver Wyre Drawers (City Livery Company).'
Fred.
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very many thanks Fred for taking the amount of time that obviously you do, to provide such comprehensive background information.
Like you, I've never heard of the descriptive term 'mirror bowl goblet' to describe those ovals, lenses or thumbprints seen commonly on pressed and cut wines, ales and goblets from second half C19 - but your reasoning could well be correct, though difficult to prove - I don't recall seeing that sort of description in the books.
The slightly later Reg. 192792 that you mention, for another goblet - is in the pipeline to appear in this sequence of tumblers/goblets, and should be up for posting in a day or two. As you will see in due course, this later item is another goblet, but instead of lenses/ovals the decoration on the bowl is in the form of upright moulded mitres.
As always you've put much flesh on the bones and brought these characters and their business dealings back to life, and is much appreciated :)
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and four more
..
one
Regs. 189615/16 dated 11.09.1865 - Robinson & Bolton.
The Victorians were very keen on the word goblet - have a look in Silber & Fleming (c. 1880s) - though there are a couple of decades separating the date of Registration of these two and the publication of the household catalogue, so perhaps ideas changed. Looking in the Kew Register, neither of these designs were provided with a specific description, and we might now be inclined to think that 189615 with its tallish bowl to be more akin to an ale, though 189616 does appear more a legitimate goblet shape.
two
Reg. 189705 dated 12.09.1865 - James Derbyshire & Bro.
Something lost in translation possibly here - most oddly the Kew Register description reads 'goblet', though it's obviously a tumbler.
Coincidentally, in the Register, the entry for 189705 falls immediately after 189616 (above), and it's perhaps tempting to think the clerk entered the word goblet on the wrong line - but that's very unlikely - nonetheless the description for 189705 is a complete mystery, as you can see from looking at the shape in the attached picture.
The design of this tumbler makes me think of the rear of an elephant - heavy convex pillar moulding - a feature that occurs as decoration on decanters from the very early Victorian period (the opposite of pillar flutes, which are concave). This style of moulding makes the tumbler appear older than it is, a very dated look.
I've never seen an example - can't find one in the books either, and have forgotten to look under Derbyshire in the Board's archive - perhaps we have had a picture of this design previously and I'm unaware of the fact.
three ........ Reg. 189948 dated 21.09.1865 - David Jacobs.
Reading Fred's extensive notes regarding the history of the Jacobs family, it's not easy to see to what extent they remained manufacturers at the time of this particular Registration, or perhaps dealers only - most of the real glass activity appears to have occurred during the first half of the C19.
I'd suggest this Registration is legitimately a goblet, though the Kew archives are quiet on the matter of description - the decoration is simply pressed vertical mitres.
As always, dimensions are absent entirely. If I were offered a choice of one from this group of four, there's no hesitation - the Derbyshire tumbler. Hope someone has an example to show. :)
Legitimate period examples of all these pre 1884 designs, should in theory carry a lozenge, in relief, showing details which can be checked in the books.
-
Notes regarding RDs 189615 and 189616, registered on 11 September 1865 - Parcel 1 by [Peter] Robinson and [Edward] Bolton, Orford Lane Glassworks, Warrington, Lancashire.
P.S., TNA online registration details summary at
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=glass+design+189615
gives the address as ... "Oxford Lane Glassworks"... (a transcription error from the original handwritten register entry - see original entry in Jenny Thompson p102 which definitely reads "Orford"...).
I don't have any reference photos of actual items with these RD numbers, and neither can I find any online.
There were six Robinson and Bolton registered glass designs:
105196 P2 on 23 June 1856
187536 P3 on 14 June 1865
189615 P1 on 11 September 1865
189616 P1 on 11 September 1865
195272 P1 on 17 February 1866 ( described as a "tumbler")
212432 - P4 on 18 October 1867
and now the design representations have all been shown (along with photos of actual items, apart from 189615 & 189616) and lots of details about the Robinson and Bolton proprietors and glassworks on the GMB in the following threads:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,58887.msg333417.html#msg333417
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,52818.msg300011.html#msg300011
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,40114.msg316665.html#msg316665
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,66981.msg373868.html#msg373868
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,66161.msg370020.html#msg370020
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,59825.msg337879.html#msg337879
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,48127.msg271157.html#msg271157
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,62842.msg352781.html#msg352781
Fred.
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Neil's Manchester Glass website at
https://sites.google.com/site/molwebbhistory/Home/registered-designs/derbyshire-brothers-designs-by-date/derbyshire-brothers-1864-1865
describes the James Derbyshire & Brother RD 189705 of 12 September 1865 -Parcel 2 as
Odd-looking tumbler. The bottom half of the glass has some vertical deep cuts. The rest of the glass is plain. The glass widens at the mid-body and shrinks back again at the top
but there are no photos, and I don't know of any either.
Fred.
-
Notes on goblet RD 189948, registered on 21 September 1865 - Parcel 10 by David Jacobs [Proprietor], 33 Haymarket, London:
Please note that this is NOT the same registrant as that for the goblet RD 147792 of 19 December 1861 - Parcel 4, who was Proprietor: David Henry Jacobs, 64 Crown Street, Finsbury Square, London, with details on replies #26 and #30 above.
I don't know of any photographs of a goblet from this RD number.
From
https://jacobstree.co.uk/2015/11/16/henry-jacobs-1833-as-son-of-moses-jacobs-1794-1856/
David Jacobs was a glass warehouseman, born in London about 1820.
In the 1851 & 1861 censuses he is at 33 Haymarket, London, with his wife, Matilda, with the business under the name of David Jacobs'. He had married Matilda Rebecca Jacobs (his 2nd cousin) in 1848. The marriage certificate names Moses Jacobs[1974-1856], china dealer, as his father. In 1869, David Jacobs died in Charing Cross, a "glass manufacturer", leading Matilda a widow. David leaves his business to his 2 sons, Philip David and Angelo Jacobs.
David had a younger brother, Henry (c.1832 - 1911), born in London but lived in America (probably Kentucky) between 1855-1857. Henry moved back to England, and was in Brighton until 1871 (in a business and house belonging to his elder brother, David). Henry left Brighton in 1871 and established himself at 68, High Holborn. Died in Finchley in 1911 ("formerly a glass merchant") aged 79.
Fred.
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regret I can't offer anything to match that level of academic input Fred - marvellous research indeed - but will offer a few additional words regarding Neil's comments on 189705 - the 'odd-looking tumbler' from Derbyshire.
The unidentified u. tumbler that I posted last year - https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,68378.msg380424.html#msg380424 - shows very substantial pillar moulding similar to 189705, so presumably this early Victorian design feature not perhaps as rare as might be thought. I see my final comment, as to date - re the linked example - suggested something nearer to the middle of the C19, and this is now perhaps justified bearing in mind we do in fact have a Registration date of 1865 for the Derbyshire item.
I have an intense dislike of 'provenance by similarity' - it's dangerous and perpetuates errors - but it would have been more than useful if we could have said this feature of heavy pillar moulding might have linked my uranium tumbler to James Derbyshire. But I'm not going to say that ;)
I see also that Neil corroborates my comments about the apparent wrong description shown in the BoT Register, where 189705 is noted as a 'goblet' rather than a tumbler.
Will have a day or two off, and then the exercise will continue. :)
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and a few more
...
one
. Reg.191995 dated 04.11.1865 - Franz Steigerwald of St. Paul's, London, and described as an 'ornamental design.
I don't know this Company - importers perhaps since the area around St. Paul's Cathedral (London), probably not known for
glass houses. The Kew Register is silent on the nature of their activities, perhaps someone else is able to add information.
I've added two pix for this Registration, as the writing - beautiful as it is - lacks clarity when the pictures are re-sized.
two
. Reg. 192792 dated 23.11.1865 - David Henry Jacobs. Again, two pix just to make sure the description can be read
clearly.
I think it reads "Pressd. leg mitre fluted bowl goblet - Pressd.
Fred has already drawn attention to this further Rd. from Jacobs - back a few posts - and this goblet shows again what seems
to have been a liking that Jacobs had for vertical pressed mitres.
three
. Reg. 193419 dated 14.12.1865 - James Derbyshire & Bro. The classic barrel-shaped tumbler - possibly a rather dated design
even in the mid 1860s, and described as "Plain barrel-shaped tumbler - ornamental shape". Have to say I've not seen an
example of this design.
four
Reg. 198277 dated 16.06.1866 - James Derbyshire & Bro. Seem to recall we've had discussions on this, or another very
similar design, in recent weeks - it's likely that this is one of the four Derbyshire Regs. shown in Ray Slack's book, where he
mentions a goblet that was Registered on this particular date. Unfortunately, the pix in Slack's book aren't too clever and
not easy to make a match.
Since there are six pictures, then two will be carried over to the next post.
-
and the last two Registrations - 193419 and 198277 - both for Derbyshire
...
-
Notes on RD 191995, registered on 4 November 1865 - Parcel 4 by Franz Steigerwald and Company of 1 Godliman Street and 19 Great Carter Lane, St. Paul's , London:
It would appear that the registration was made by a British company representing or acting an arm or agent or importer for a Bavarian glass manufacturer (most likely the Theresienthal glassworks). So I suspect that the design was for a goblet most likely to have had the mould-blown bowl with a hand-worked stem and foot typical of the Theresienthal pieces.
The Steigerwalds were an extremely wealthy, important and influential dynasty in the Bavarian glass trade. They also had business and family links with the wealthy Poschinger Bavarian glass family.
Franz Steigerwald Senior left his hometown, Prague, with his family in 1808. He had three sons - Wilhelm (1804-1869), Franz [Junior] (?- 1861) and Emmanuel. Steigerwald Senr. opened a glass finishing workshop and a glass saleroom in 1812.
The art of glass making in Germany developed from the tradition of the so-called flying glass works. In order to make glass, great amounts of wood were needed to fire the furnaces and to produce potash, which is one of the basic materials. Hence, it was no wonder the Bavarian Forest turned into a glass making region in the Middle Ages. Once the timber surrounding their mobile (flying) glass works had been cut down, the glass makers moved on and set up their workshops in a new place. It was only in the early 19th century that it became possible to transport large amounts of wood over long distances and people began to establish permanent glass works, or hόttes.
In September of 1836 Franz Steigerwald Jnr. founded such a glass works in the form of a manufactory, and named it the Royally Privileged Crystal-Works Theresienthal after Queen Therese of Bavaria, wife of Ludwig I. The King himself supported Steigerwald in establishing the manufactory and granted him monopoly to certain kinds of glass. Theresienthal did not fail to keep its promise; in a short period of time, the crowned glass with the special lustre managed to conquer the high society of the great cities, the royal courts of Europe, and the hearts of crystal glass lovers around the world.
Franz Steigerwald died in 1861 in Deggendorf Niederbayern, Bavaria and was succeeded by the Glassbaron Johann Michael (II) von Poschinger , 1794-1863 (see below), who took over Theresienthal, and it remained in family ownership until the death of the last Poschinger from the Theresienthal line in 1977. (The first glass foundry bought by the Poschinger family dates all the way back to 1568, and fifteen generations of sons have run the business since then).
Wilhelm Steigerwald (1804 - 1869) was a Czech-German industrialist . In 1832 he was a glass dealer in Haida, northern Bohemia, in the Palais Kinsky, together with Friedrich Egermann. In 1836 he and his brother Franz Steigerwald began the construction of the glass factory Theresienthal in the Bavarian Forest. On 1 July 1837 he joined the company as a co-shareholder and in 1839 settled in Theresienthal, where he acted as technical plant manager and was granted a five-year privilege by the Bavarian government for the gold ruby glass he produced in 1840. In December 1842, after disputes with shareholders, he resigned his directorial post. In 1844 he leased the Schachtenbach glassworks in the Rabenstein glassworks estate and operated it from 23 April 1844. He secured the inheritance rights for the regenhόtte,which also belongs to Kiesling's estate, in 1847 after the extinction of the von Kiesling. In 1849, King Max II and his wife visited him, and in 1853 Prince Luitpold, the future Prince Regent. In 1855, Wilhelm Steigerwald was awarded a gold medal in Paris as the only German manufacturer. Schachtenbach had achieved a leading position under him among the glassworks of the Bavarian Forest. On 30 March 1859, the lease agreement with the Spiegelglasfabrik Fischer/Ziegler from Erlangen came to an end and Steigerwald became an heir. At the request of the State Forestry Authority, he conducted negotiations on the relocation of the Schachtenbach hut to Regenhόtte and, after the conclusion of the contract on 22 September 1863, began the construction of a new glassworks in Regenhόtte, the building of which is still in place today. The glassworks in Schachtenbach was abandoned, the inhabitants almost all moved to Regenhόtte. Steigerwald himself also moved to Regenhόtte in 1865.
Wilhelm Steigerwald was married to Henriette Reinhold from Zweibrόcken, who died three years after him. Their children were daughter Louise (1832-1840), son Oskar (1837-1840), son Wilhelm Jnr. ((17 March 1843-1880) and glass artist Henriette [ later von Poschinger] (1 December 1845-1903).
Henriette Steigerwald was thus not only the daughter of the estate and glassworks owner Wilhelm Steigerwald and Henrice Reinhold, but also the niece of Franz Steigerwald, founder of Theresienthal glassworks in 1836. In 1863, Henriette Steigerwald married in Zwiesel the son of Johann Michael (II) von Poschinger, royal Bavarian commercial councillor Johann Michael III. Ritter and Edler von Poschinger (1834-1908), landlord and now, following the death of his father in a stagecoach accident, also the owner of the Theresienthal glassworks. Henriette Poschinger nιe Steigerwald was a master student of the famous painter Franz von Lenbach (1836-1904). For several decades she worked in her glassworks as a designer of trophies and rφmers/roemers/rummers and, In the phase of historicism, she also copied glasses from the Bavarian and Germanic National Museum in order to design modern glasses using old techniques. her two grandchildren, Egon von Poschinger (1894-1977) and Hans von Poschinger (1892-1951), inherited the artistic talent of their grandmother Henriette and became well-known painters.
Fred.
-
thanks Fred - as always, a wonderful contribution to the Board's archive for these C19 pressed glass manufacturers/agents/importers - to which I really can't think of anything original to add. Will add some more designs in the coming days.
-
and some more from 1866 and 1868
..
one
Reg. 204182 dated 28.11.1866 - Michael & Lewis Beck, London.
Unfortunately, another name about which I know nothing, but suspect they were importers, wholesalers or agents, rather than
manufacturers.
What is intriguing on this one are the initials J.D. & Bro. which can be seen in the lower left hand corner of the original factory
drawing, attached - so might this have been an item made by James Derbyshire & Bro. specifically for Michael & Lewis Beck?
two
. Reg. 218486 dated 29.04.1868 - Kerr Webb & Co., Manchester - am sure the spelling of 'Ker' in Ray Slack's book is in error
(which he appears to repeat for all Registrations for K & W.) - doubtless he was mislead by the equally incorrect spelling sent
to the BoT, and which can be seen on the original factory drawing shown below.
Anything relating to C19 glass production, and involving the name Webb, has the potential to be very confusing - the 'Webb
dynasty' was very long lived - from the dying days of the Regency until well into the C20 - and their connection with the
Richardson's and Andrew Kerr makes for interesting reading - see Hajdamach and Gulliver for dates and some company
history.
Andrew Kerr was certainly trading from Prussia Street Flint Glass Works (Manchester), in the late 1870s, though whether on his
own or not I'm unsure. Certainly if you read the interesting extract Neil posted some time back ..
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,35645.msg193464.html#msg193464
..
the litigation being discussed with Kerr and Webb against Percival Vickers in 1871, appears to show that Andrew Kerr and
Thomas Webb were appearing as joint plaintiffs, so presumably they were in business together at that date, which is supported
by the fact that this Registration lists their names jointly as Registrants.
As to Neil's question regarding the allotted time scale for protection of U.K. Registered Designs - during the 'lozenge' period -
this was for three years only, although this did increase to five years post 1884. Not sure why I should be surprised that
Prussia should have allowed a seven year time limit for similar protection, but it did strike me as not what I'd have imagined.
Have a feeling I've commented on this particular point previously, somewhere.
The fact that Kerr & Webb lost their action against Percival Vickers might suggest that the three year protection offered as legal
security for Registered Designs, really gave nothing substantive in law, and this very point may be the answer to Neil's query as
to why so few manufacturers appeared to decide not to Register their Designs.
three
.. Reg. 221497 dated 10.09.1868 - Kerr Webb & Co.
four .... Reg. 221795 dated 19.09.1868 - Percival Vickers & Co.
As usual, anyone is welcome to add to the above, in whatever way, additional information that increases our knowledge is always welcome. :)
I doubt that I've seen any of these four designs, so hopefully someone might have an example to show - the design of the P.V. goblet looks to
be heading in the direction of how several late C19 goblets evolved - lenses/thumbprints etc.
-
Notes on goblet RD 204182, registered by Michael & Lewis Beck of 7, Sun Street, Bishopsgate on 28 November 1866 - Parcel 5:
Even as I type this, there is an example of the design sitting on a shelf about four feet away!
I showed it in a GMB post back in 2012 at
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,49720.msg280817.html#msg280817
and I think the easiest thing to do is to duplicate that post (with photos) here for permanent reference.
A clear pressed ale glass with a hexagonal baluster stem, plain circular foot, and a tapered bowl with six facets impressed into the bottom part of the exterior. The bowl interior bears a clear date lozenge for 28 November 1866 Parcel 5.
The registrants were Michael & Lewis Beck of 7 Sun Street, Bishopsgate, London, and the corresponding RD number is 204182. (This seems to be the Becks only registered design).
Michael and Lewis Beck traded as Glass and China Merchants (or dealers, depending on the particular census returns). Michael first appears in the trade in the 1851 census (aged 29) and Lewis (who was 4 years older) seems to join him sometime between 1861 and 1871. Lewis is trading alone by the 1881 census.
The potential link between the Beck brothers and James Derbyshire and Brother is indeed intriguing, but I don't know of any supporting evidence.
Fred
-
Photos of goblet RD 221795, registered by Percival, Vickers & Co. Limited on 19 September 1868.
Fred.
-
It is Andrew Ker with one R. I have been looking at his past a bit recently. He was a Manchester timber merchant until around the age of 60, and also my 3x great-grandfather's landlord! He formed Ker & Webb around 1866 with Thomas Webb, who was a cousin of the Webbs from Molineaux Webb, from Warrington originally. They split around 1875 after which Andrew Ker ran the Prussia Street glassworks until just before his death in the late 1880s, handing over to Samuel Ralphs, who ran it for a few years. Thomas Webb split to form a family business, Thomas Webb & Sons at Varley Street, which ran into liquidation around 1880. The Webbs fought tooth and nail to keep their business going, but ran out of gas in the late 1880s - they then moved to Salford and ran a new business called Webb Brothers, which existed in one form or another all the way up to around 1940. I talked to some descendants of this branch. They did have some surviving company papers but they were all nicked in a house burglary some time ago, drat!
-
sincere thanks to Fred and Neil for adding to the interest - and the pix of some of these particular Registrations is very much appreciated Fred.
Also appreciate the correction to the spelling of Ker, Neil. Surprised that the wrong spelling was shown on the original factory drawing, and that's probably the source of the error in some of the books - you might have thought at least that source would have been correct.
I've just looked again at the Register for both 218486 and 221497, and can say that the spelling for the former is correct, whilst the slightly later Registration is shown as Kerr.
Very annoying to hear of the loss of family papers in the burglary - can't remotely think that such items would be of any use to anyone else - but guess burglars are nothing if not indiscriminate by nature.
Regret my memory not so good now, and matters from 2012, for Michael & Lewis Beck, had obviously escaped me :)
-
and to continue
..
one
Reg. 223322 dated 23rd October 1868 - Percival Vickers. A pressed design for goblet with bowl decoration
similar to their Reg. 221795, which was included in the previous most recent post here.
two
...Reg. 225440 dated 14th December 1868 - Percival Vickers. This design - a small handled can or tankard perhaps -
seems to ring a bell - it may be that I've owned one somewhere in the past or seen an example elsewhere. This is a
good example of the - generally - mid Victorian or earlier method of attaching the handle top down - such handles often end up
with an attractive terminal to the lower part where the handle is finished - as does this example.
three
.. Reg. 228612 dated 13th April 1869 - James Derbyshire & Bro. A goblet with fairly standard vertical mitres, mould
around the bowl, plus a moulded faceted stem.
four
.. Reg. 230596 dated 1st July 1869 - Ker, Webb & Co. A not unattractive tumbler - I get the impression it wasn't a large,
but since none of the original factory drawings include sizes etc., then it's really only a guess on my part.
Unable to say whether any or all of these Registrations have been shown on the Board previously, and as usual if anyone has additional details which they would care to add to the above information this will be of benefit to all. thanks.
-
Photos of RD 223322, Percival, Vickers & Co. Ltd. on 23 October 1868 - Parcel 4.
Described on Neil's website at
https://sites.google.com/site/molwebbhistory/Home/registered-designs/percival-vickers-designs-by-date/percival-vickers-1868-1869
as "as 221795 except the body is straight and widens towards the top of the glass".
Fred.
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many thanks Fred - appreciate the additional information.
-
four more Registered Designs, all from the second half of 1869.
one
. Registration 230716 dated 5th July 1869 - Edward Bolton, Warrington. Decoration in the form of oval lenses and upright mitres - lenses appear fairly commonly on pressed glass - from around this date, though they were a feature on cut glass from earlier in the C19.
two
Registration 234517 dated 16th October 1869 - Percival Vickers & Co., Ltd., Manchester. Attractive design showing bands of relief diamonds and from the factory drawing alone you'd be forgiven for thinking this was a cut pattern. However, we assume this is a Registration for a pressed item, but can't be certain without confirmation from someone who owns this particular design.
three ............. Registration 235821 dated 6th November 1869 - Percival Vickers & Co., Ltd., Manchester. A good example of a factory drawing that illustrates - by the dotted line - how the shape of the plunger creates the inner profile of the bottom of the tumbler.
I assume the reasoning behind the narrowing of the plunger tip is simply a matter of mechanics - presumably it takes less effort to force the plunger into a mould full of molten glass if the leading tip of the plunger has less surface area - thus less resistance from the glass.
Very obviously a pressed item, with the decoration giving a nod toward a much earlier style of finger bottoms and slice cut panels.
four .............. Registration 236002 dated 10th November 1869 - Ker, Webb & Co., Manchester. An attractive goblet, and we're back again to the moulded lenses, plus an attractive stem with twist formation.
As always please feel free to add factual comments etc., particularly if anyone owns one of these four Registered designs - thanks :)
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Re. Registration 234517 dated 16th October 1869 - Percival Vickers & Co., Ltd., Manchester.
Goblet is definitely press-moulded.
Fred.
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Re. Registration 235821 dated 6th November 1869 - Percival Vickers & Co., Ltd., Manchester.
Fred.
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Re. Registration 236002 dated 10th November 1869 - Ker, Webb & Co., Manchester.
The only image of the straight-sided goblet (as per the design representation) that I have is by permission of the Manchester City Galleries.
The same registry date lozenge is more commonly found on a round-bodied goblet with the same decorative design features.
Fred.
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very big thanks as always Fred - it brings these designs to life when we see an example in the flesh - also for the confirmation that 234517 is indeed pressed, as I'd assumed was most likely.
Take it that Manchester City Galleries have their own picture archive - as opposed to you visiting in person and taking some snaps, perhaps :)
Might this be the first time the GMB has benefited from their archives, or have you posted images from them before, and I've forgotten?
thanks again.
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The RD 236002 Ker & Webb image was indeed from their image archives (quite a few years ago now). I've tried to find the original web image to insert a link but I don't seem to be able to find it any more.
I think that this is the only Manchester City Galleries image that I have posted. Perhaps Neil Harris is more conversant with their Manchester glass archives.
Fred.
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There isn't really a glass archives at the Manchester Art Gallery. They have a number of objects donated and collected, mostly glass, some historical. A number have been photographed but not everything is correctly labelled.
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four more, from 1869-70 - two tumblers and two goblets from the diamond Registration period.
one
Registration 237550 dated 23.12.1869 - Percival Vickers - Manchester.
two
.. Registration 237893 dated 07.01.1870 - E. H. Downes - Manchester. Not a name I'm familiar with.
three
. Registration 239084 dated 22.02.1870 - Molineaux Webb - Manchester.
four
.. Registration 240010 dated 26.03.1870 - Percival Vickers - Manchester.
There remain only two Registrations for me to add, which will conclude this little exercise covering tumbler and goblet designs Registered during the lozenge period. All adds to the overall picture and interest of C19 pressed goblets and tumblers, and as with earlier items in this thread, I'd like to offer a big thanks to Fred (agincourt17) especially, for providing much additional interest along the way - also to neilh for providing some relevant historical interest. Contributors to this thread put much flesh on the bones of these Victorian inventions and hopefully give them a new lease of life and greater collector interest. thanks.
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Edwin Henry Boulton Downs ran a high end glass and china dealership in central Manchester, he was also a hotel owner in Bolton. He registered two pieces, the one above and another in 1873. He took over John Derbyshire's factory for a few years after it went bust, the last two registrations from that factory, as "The Regent Road Glass Works" occurred whilst he owned the business. He died in 1889.
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many thanks Neil for this interesting additional information - I can claim some lack of responsibility regarding the incorrect spelling of Downes, and you have shown it correctly as Downs.
In fact the Kew Register entry for 237893 is the wrong spelling and led me astray...
. I've now looked at the Register for 278292 and the name appears as you've shown it, correctly, without the 'e'.
For whatever reason, I can't find a picture of the design for 278292 in my photos of the Kew Registrations - do you know what the item is please - and presumably we've not had this design previously.
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It's a rather dull tumbler with two rows of horizontal ovals
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The design registry summary for RD 278292 gives the registrant's surname as both Downes AND Downs. There is no detailed description of the design other than giving the Class as Class 3.
For RD 237892 and RD 278292, The National Archives registration details summary give E. H. Down[e]s' address as 13, Smithy Door, Manchester.
Smithy Door was once a narrow lane or passage between Market Place and Deansgate and was named after a blacksmith who carried his own front door to court to prove he was owed money from a debtor in the 1500s. The chap was illiterate but had carved the debt owed into the door, and this was proof enough for the courts. Legend has it that a small statue of the 'smith, William Berry, with his door was kept in the Victoria Hotel (the old Woolpack) on Deansgate, and the story itself, carved into the wood decor of the hotel.
There is an 1825 print of Smithy Door looking south towards the Cathedral, and another print from the same volume but looking in the opposite direction towards an impressive timber-framed building surmounted with an unusual central-timber framed and tiled 'tower'and a sign across the front, 'H Willmott'. The same building is apparently depicted in previous incarnations as the Syddall residence and Old Manor House, and a number of later (1875ish) photos depicts it just before its demolition with a sign running the width of the first floor reading 'DEAKIN'S ENTIRE', the colloquial name for a building that housed the 'Vintner's Arms'. Deakin was Col. James Henry Deakin, politician and brewer, who owned the Britannia Brewery, Broadie Street, Ardwick, Manchester.. In 1874 he stood for parliament in the constituency of Launceston, in the county of Cornwall, but was unseated just under three months later, owing to corruption, including allowing his tenants to "kill rabbits the eve of the election", causing a by-election; in an act of nepotism he nominated his son, James Henry Deakin [junior] as his replacement and he was duly elected by the forgiving burghers of Launceston, who were presumably too full of rabbit pie to care less. Col Deakin died in 1880, and in 1888, Manchester Brewery Co. Ltd. was registered in January 1888 to acquire the business of Col. James Henry Deakin from his executors.
Fred.
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Neil - thanks - I'll hunt around some more and try to find this one.
Fred - thanks as always. Some amusing and intriguing stories there - in fact I had noted on my desk pad, whilst looking in the Register, the address of Smithy Door because it sounded so curious - then forgot to mention it in my post
so thanks for doing that for me - I certainly couldn't have added all the other social interest and pix either. :)
Might you have any pix of these four, in the flesh, to add?
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Thank you, Paul, for starting this thread, and for all the hard work that you have put in. I must say that I have really enjoyed adding some human and social interest to the thread and hopefully giving another perspective into the glass manufacturing trade of the time.
Sadly, I don't have any photos of actual examples to add here. However, Neil has some addition insights into the Percival, Vickers RD 237550 at
https://sites.google.com/site/molwebbhistory/Home/registered-designs/percival-vickers-designs-by-date/percival-vickers-1868-1869
and a good photo of an example of Percival, Vickers RD 240010 at
https://sites.google.com/site/molwebbhistory/Home/registered-designs/percival-vickers-designs-by-date/percival-vickers-1870-1872
plus additional info on Molineaux Webb RD 239084 at
https://sites.google.com/site/molwebbhistory/Home/registered-designs/molineaux-webb-designs-by-date/molineaux-webb-1870
Fred.
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I should mention I've been thinking of writing a set of books on the Manchester glass factories, which would allow me to flesh out some of the characters mentioned on this thread in much greater detail, I'm not really updating my website much these days. We'll see how things go, research is effectively complete from my end.
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Fortunately, I've now found a picture of 278292 which I can post later - but more importantly I've also found another dozen or so pix of related goblet/tumbler Registrations which continue this exercise to almost the end of the lozenge period. Bit embarrassing really, and obviously my pc filing system not what it should be. :-[
Your thoughts on publishing "a set of books' sounds impressive Neil - you may want to wait until I've completed adding pix for the above mentioned additional Registrations, though possibly like me you have already been to TNA and have all you need in the way of Registrant information. I'll do best to add this final group without too much delay.
So, Fred, you can't quite put the disprin away just yet
...
and appreciate the links to Neil's web site for data on Percival Vickers and Molineaux Webb - very informative and interesting source of historic details for these manufacturers of pressed glass.
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Thanks Paul, I have all the Manchester registrations. As we have found out, the pictures are often just a starting point to wider tableware sets, or further designs which sometimes bear little relation to the registration. Most of my research these days is tracking down unregistered pieces. Unregistered tumblers and goblets are virtually impossible to match to a manufacturer as everyone was doing a set of them in this time period, often identical designs. Even the fancy ones match across glass works in this country and sometimes beyond, to Boston & Sandwich etc.
I don't know if you've seen this page on my website, the bottom bit in blue shows gives details of a court case on tumbler design infringement
https://sites.google.com/site/molwebbhistory/Home/registered-designs/registration-observations
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:-) - thanks, and seeing that 12 inch thick volume of Design Registrations brings back memories of my trips to Kew and the various incidents along the way.
One of the Design volumes is leather bound (another of the 43/books) which had decayed and acquired what bookbinders call 'red rot' - the leather in effect dries to such an extent that it comes away in dust of a reddish colour - so what had been a clean short-sleeved white shirt when I started that morning, by lunch time was stained red from leaning over the book - I don't think the colour ever really washed out.
I forgot the rule of 'no pencil erasers' one day, and was nearly thrown out when they discovered I was using a pencil with one of those round rubbers pushed into a metal tube on the other end of what was probably a school pencil.
I've been cautioned for
. leaning too far over the books, forgetting to put gloves on, touching the brown sepia coloured C19 photos, being on the wrong desk (they have mega sized tables for the map researchers and smaller ones for those of us who are using just these Registers). And always need to remember those wedge shaped sponge supports - as showing in your picture.
All these rules and regs. are of course for a very good reason which I do appreciate, and I try to remember, but on rare occasions forget.
Yes, you have shown that story of the litigation re tumbler design infringement before - always good to read again though, and am sure there are others here who will not have seen this previously.
So now we recommence the Registered Designs - here are two more goblets and two more tumblers from 1871 and 1872 - as always images lack any guide to size
...
...
..
one
Registration 255383 dated 06.09.1871 - Ker, Webb & Co., Mchstr. A heavy duty looking goblet
two
.. Registration 256264 dated 30.09.1871 - Percival Vickers & Co., Ltd., Mchstr. Another design showing the internal
narrowing toward the base, presumably an instance again of a plunger with small diameter front end.
three
.. Registration 258445 dated 7.12.1871 - Percival Vickers & Co., Ltd., Mchstr. I've assumed this is a tumbler, but could
be wrong - the lack of height doesn't help - perhaps it's a shape for some particular use, but no idea what.
Grateful for input on this item as to opinions for use - might just be a plain water tumbler of course.
four
.. Registration 262405 dated 02.05.1872 - Percival Vickers & Co,. Ltd., Mchstr. I suppose you'd call this a goblet, not
really sure, but it's a shape that either lasted a very long time - think sundae glasses, juke boxes and late C20 lager and lime
glasses - or, a shape that re-appeared in the mid C20 for lager. I have some (un-Registered) examples that are
very tall.
Percival Vickers obviously very active around this period - feel free to post any suitable comments that might add to the above - I've given just the bare bones, but some flesh will always increase the interest.
thanks as always to the Directors and Trustees of The National Archives for their permission and help with images and publication on the GMB.
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four more designs - from 1872 - 73.
one
Reg. 269194 dated 23.12.1872 - Percival Vickers, Mchstr.
This goblet, together with the next item (tumbler Reg. 269694 also from Percival Vickers), show an identical moulded design feature of massive pillars topped by a deep mitred band encircling the piece, and both have a strong similarity of design to Regs. from Ker, Webb - Nos. 230596 and 236002 - showing in the last page or two, in this thread. A similar design of pillars and mitred band is also seen in the Downs Reg. 237893, a couple of pages back.
In view of Neil's link to the litigation episode between Ker, Webb and P.V., it's not difficult to see how tensions between these manufacturers arose - their separate Regs. for these 'pillared' designs could well be seen as too close for comfort perhaps to be simple coincidence, and plagiarism was obviously on someone's mind.
Unfortunately, it seems history hasn't provided us with the particular Reg. Nos. that gave rise to the 1871 dispute (though possibly Neil may have that information) - and since Downs wasn't a manufacturer, then might we infer that one of the two manufacturers in legal dispute, also made the Downs piece?
two
. Reg. 269694 dated 15.01.1873 - Percival Vickers, Mchstr.
Tumbler with pillars and mitred band. I'd overlooked the fact that Apsley Pellatt was selling heavily pillared decanters c. 1865, so always possible this design feature was enjoying some revival at the time these goblets and tumblers were made - pillars occur on decanters in the C18, and then again in the 1930s.
Reg .............. Reg. 274962 dated 08.08.1873 - John Derbyshire, Mchstr.
On this date J.D. Registered three new designs - 274961-63. It's only 62 and 63 that concern us here, since 274961 was a 'Design for Sugar, Cream and Service in what the factory drawing describes as 'THE PINE APPLE PATTERN' - and attractive it is too.
274962 is described as a 'Design for goblet and Service' - and shows a heavily moulded pattern with appearance of an oval looped design (see below) - people here will hopefully know what others shapes, if any, were produced with this moulded design. Have a vague feeling we've had a rummer on the Board in recent days with a very similar pattern, but memory could be failing me.
four ............. Reg. 274963 dated 08.08.1873 - John Derbyshire, Mchstr.
This is the other J.D. Registration from the 8th August group of three new designs, and again the factory drawing describes this as 'Goblet and Service in Glass', so the suggestion is that other shapes were produced with this design - sorry I don't immediately recall what they may be - am sure Fred or Neil will remind us.
If others have more information of interest to add, would be great, thanks:-)
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four more, from 1873, 1874 and 1875
one
. Reg. 278292 dated 14th November 1873 - E. H. Downs, Mchstr. An attractive pressed tumbler with stylized fan splits and lenses, though I doubt that we'll ever know the maker. This is the other Downs Registration referred to by Neil couple of pages back I think.
two
.. Reg. 279535 dated 6th January 1874 - Lewes Henry Beck of London - another name I know nothing of. Perhaps others are able to add something on what was probably a wholesaler or retailer. Looking at other lozenge period designs for tumblers and goblets, it appears very uncommon to find wording such as this on similar glasses - from experience, it's more likely to find text on tankards and Sowerby occasionally added something like 'Peace and Plenty'.
three
.. 294653 and 294654 both dated 23rd September 1875. Both Registered to Ed. Bolton, Lancs.
goblet and tumbler with identical and rather plain pressed oval lenses.
Please add further information if available - thanks.
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Re: RD 279535 of 6 January 1874:
TNA design registration summary
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=glass+design+279535
gives the registrant as Lewes Henry Beck of 42 Bishopsgate Street , London.
I'm just wondering if there has been a mistranscription of the registrant's name as, in replies #41 and #42 at
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,69201.40.html
the registrants of goblet RD 204182, were Michael & Lewis Beck of 7, Sun Street, Bishopsgate on 28 November 1866 - Parcel 5.
Michael and Lewis Beck traded as Glass and China Merchants (or dealers, depending on the particular census returns). Michael first appears in the trade in the 1851 census (aged 29) and Lewis (who was 4 years older) seems to join him sometime between 1861 and 1871. Lewis is trading alone by the 1881 census.
There appear to be no other designs registered by Lewes Beck.
The location of Sun Street Passage , Bishopsgate is shown on
https://cartographic.info/uk_street/map.php?id=727981
as being along the line of the concourse at the SW corner of Liverpool Street station, which was opened in about 1890. Sun Street, Bishopsgate and 42 Bishopsgate [Street] are only about 200 metre apart.
I think it's a reasonable possibility that Lewis Beck and Lewes Beck are, in fact, one and the same person.
Fred.
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Re: RD 274963, registered by John Derbyshire on 8 August 1873 Parcel 7.
Photos below of a goblet RD 274963 (with registry date lozenge, JDanchor mark and number 258) , as shown in the design representation, and Neil shows another example at
https://sites.google.com/site/molwebbhistory/Home/registered-designs/derbyshire-brothers-designs-by-date/derbyshire-brothers-1873-1874
Despite the factory drawing describing this as 'Goblet and Service in Glass', I've not seen any other shapes from the design.
Fred.
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many thanks Fred for the additional information.
During the process of adding posts for this thread, I refer almost always to Ray Slack's book for dates and names as a quick and, usually, reliable source of information, though I am aware there are errors in the book.
I've looked him up again - for 204182 and 279535 - and it does appear that he copied TNA information accurately - for spelling etc. - for these two Registrations, and just for interest have now attached copies of my original pix taken from the Kew Register. I think these are legible but if not hope you're good at reading C19 handwriting - I assume that in the early 1870s the Registration clerks had access to dip pens only, though the more affluent might have owned an eyedropper. ;)
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am posting this item separately which keeps it in sequence with other Registered Nos., though it's neither a tumbler nor goblet but it's CLASS III - the Registration No. occurs in both Slack and Thompson, and the factory drawing includes the word drinking cup. It's obviously a curiosity item - I've never seen one, and it really doesn't belong with this thread but it's just a little bit of interest in these difficult times.
Of course, if someone has a picture to show of the real thing it would be great to share here, though I'm not holding my breath.
The full factory drawing description reads:-
'Drinking cup, or mustard pot, or matchbox, or spill cup'.
Reg. 320330 dated 12th April 1878 - William Frederick Williams, London. Have we previously had this Registrant, or is this an entirely new name - sorry, know nothing about them.
Sorry pix aren't too clever, and as usual nothing unfortunately to indicate size.
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back to more typical items:-
one .....................Regs. Nos. 326775 and 326776 dated 23rd September 1878 - George Davidson, Gateshead.
These manufacturers - much like Sowerby - Registered some of the most memorable designs (non-drinking glass shapes) during the whole of the pressed glass period, though their attitude toward the Registration of tumblers and goblets runs (like Sowerby), quite the opposite i.e. very few. Sowerby's output in terms of tumbler design was truly prodigious - scores of different shapes and designs which included many of the pteridomania (ferny) decorated pieces, but for whatever reason almost nothing in the way of drinking glasses was Registered - in fact it may be that they didn't Register a single design of drinking glass - perhaps someone can comment on that for me.
two.................... Regs. Nos. 327641 and 327642 dated 15th October 1878 - the Registrant was entered with the BoT as :-
'James Webb, Joseph Hammond & Henry Fitzroy Webb Trading as the Executors of the late Joseph Webb, Stourbridge.
'Thompson includes both Nos. for the reason that the lady simply photographed the pages of the BoT Register which were then reproduced in her book - Slack on the other hand relied on his own handwriting to copy out every CLASS III item, and for some he reason omits 327642, and it may be that he considered these designs too similar to warrant inclusion of both.
Looking at the factory drawings it's difficult to determine quite how the decorative element was created - threading, moulded lines, wheel cut lines - the only apparent difference between the two designs is the quantity and placing of the decorative lines. Neither author included pix of these designs.
In the absence of any dimensions actual size is guesswork but in view of overall shape it's not unreasonable to suppose these were typical of C19 sherry glasses from the period 1860 onwards - very similar examples, contemporary with this period appear in S. & F. (published originally c. 1880).
Typically, stemware of this shape is hand made i.e. they are generally described as three part glasses - bowl, stem and foot made separately then joined, so assume that's the case here, but assumptions can be dangerous things - would it be possible to mould such a shape?
As an aside and possibly nothing at all to do with these two designs - but just thrown in for interest ..................
we're accustomed to seeing similar shapes commonly in green, red, blue and clear, though no idea what might have been intended for these two - possibly just clear.
Mark West ('Miller's Glass Antiques Check List) suggests that the commonly seen coloured pieces made 1860 - 1880 are characterized by having a collar immediately under the bowl, and that such examples without a collar are post this period.
How hard and fast a rule is unclear, but it's a fact that like all good things there are zillions of coloured pieces out there - with and without collars - made, I'm sure in the C20.
Picture attached showing a blue 'collared' glass, together with a collarless uranium example - no idea when they were made, unfortunately.
Would be of interest if anyone is able to expand on the title of the Registrant for these two 'sherry' designs - quite why was the word executors being used, and presumably the ownership of this design belonged originally to Joseph Webb?
Also good to see any of these Registrations in the flesh, though appreciate not easy with such old glasses, but who knows, maybe someone has the Davidson pieces. :)
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Re:
Regs. Nos. 327641 and 327642 dated 15th October 1878 - the Registrant was entered with the BoT as :-
'James Webb, Joseph Hammond & Henry Fitzroy Webb Trading as the Executors of the late Joseph Webb, Stourbridge.
Would be of interest if anyone is able to expand on the title of the Registrant for these two 'sherry' designs - quite why was the word executors being used, and presumably the ownership of this design belonged originally to Joseph Webb?
Sorry to have this reply somewhat out of order but I do have the answer easily to hand at the moment.
There is a whole topic thread:
"Design registrations by Jane Webb & others, acting as executors for Joseph Webb" at
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,54643.msg309604.html#msg309604
Joseph Webb purchased the Coalbourn Hill Glass Works, Wordsley in 1850 (having previously been in business with his cousin Edward). He died on 1 May 1869, aged 56. Initially, Jane Webb, Joseph's wife, and Joseph Hammond, Jane's brother, took over as executors (because his 2 sons, Henry Fitzroy and Joseph Junior were still minors). Jane, along with various others, continued trading in the business from the Coalbourn Hill Glass works (acting as Joseph Webbs executors) until 13 September 1887. The site of the Coalbourn Hill Glass Works now lies beneath Stourbridges Ruskin Centre.
Joseph Webb (and later Jane Webb and his other executors) were the only glass works in the Stourbridge area producing significant amounts of pressed glass wares in comparison to the other local glass works (who were predominantly producers of traditional hand-blown glass wares). The story of Webbs business and pressed glass output is poorly documented, and their role and status as glassware manufacturers in the area has, in my opinion, been very undervalued. I hope to be able to rectify that situation eventually.
Between July 1872 and January 188, Jane Webb and various other executors registered 15 designs for glass as follows: ......
and also more about the 'Executors' matter at https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,54638.msg309575.html#msg309575
Joseph Webb purchased the Coalbourn Hill Glass Works, Wordsley in 1850 (having previously been in business with his cousin Edward). He died on 1 May 1869, aged 56.
There's a whole chapter on the Coalbourn Hill Glass Works from 1691 to 2000 in Jason Ellis's 'Glassmakers of Stourbridge and Dudley 1612-2002' (ISBN 1401067999), and lots of biographical details about the Joseph Webb connection from 1850 to 1892:
When his executors (Jane Webb, Joseph's wife, and Joseph Hammond, Jane's brother) took over (because his 2 sons, Henry Fitzroy and Joseph Junior were still minors) the business had a stock over over 234,000 items, of which over 140,000 were pressed. Most of the stock was tableware, from knife rests to decanters. A few hundred lamps plus a thousand presed miners lamps, but virtually no ornamental glass. There were 180 moulds, one stopper shop and three cutting shops, with a total of 56 frames. Joseph Hammond had previously run a cutting shop at Dennis, either as a partner or tenant of his brother-in-law, Richard Webb.
Joseph Hammond's management proved not to be successful, and the business absorbed much of Jane Webb's assets. Hammond was eventually forced out, and on 15 January 1881 it was announced that he was now wholly unconnected with the business, which was to be carried on by Mrs Jane Webb and HF Webb with assistance from Joseph Webb Jr. and Benjamin Robinson. Shortly afterwards, Joseph Jr. renounced all interests in his father's estate and emigrated to Philadelphia, US in 1881 where he worked for the Phoenix Glass Company.
From that time on, pressed glass production was gradually phased out in favour of more ornamental glassware, including chandeliers and incredibly ostentatious cut glass furniture to rival that of Osler (much of which went to wealthy Indian customers). A downturn in trade brought an end to the company in 1886. The works and adjoining house were put up for sale in January 1886 but failed to attract a single bid. THE MOULDS THAT JOSEPH WEBB AND HIS SUCCESSORS HAD USED TO PRODUCE PRESSED GLASS WERE SOLD TO EDWARD MOORE [my emphasis]. Henry Fitzroy Webb became a commercial traveller in the glass trade.
Unable to sell the works, Jane Webb leased it to Thomas Mitchell from 14 September 1887 for 14 years. Jane Webb died on 25 May 1899.
Sadly, I don't know of any actual documented example of either RD 327461 or RD 327462.
Fred.
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much appreciate your adding these references Fred - it's good to have the questions and answers at the same location for future research. Am sure I could have found them, but not as quickly as obviously you have. thanks :)
There are only four Designs Regs. remaining to be posted for this thread - tomorrow possibly.
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and here they are
.
one
. Reg. 346021 dated 4th February 1880 - The Rochester Tumbler Co., Pittsburgh, PA, U.S.A.
Part of 'America's centre of glass production, formed in Pittsburgh in 1872 by Henry Clay Fry, they became what might be thought of as the States equivalent of Sowerby - producing vast quantities of pressed material of a quality much of which emulated cut glass - presumably the sand was sourced from local rivers, but nothing specific on that. Apparently they specialized in tumblers, and are known for having produced much 'vaseline' glass which was popular in the later years of the C19, and beyond. Tragically, fire razed the factory to the ground in 1901, but Fry was obviously made of stern stuff and he rebuilt a new factory which opened in 1903 in Beaver valley, north Rochester and given the new name of H. C. Fry Glass Company - later, in 1916, Fry produced heat-resistant glass under licence from Corning - presumably the borosilicate stuff we know as 'Pyrex'.
For all the vast quantities produced by The Rochester Tumbler Co., very little seems to find its way onto this Board - have I been asleep and missed seeing it, or is the stuff low on the collectibles list nowadays.
Sorry the quality of this picture is less than good - these old sepia photos don't reproduce too well.
two
Reg. 351024 dated 17th June 1880 - Percival Vickers, Manchester.
As can be seen, the No. 420 appears on the original factory drawing - possibly just a factory model No., but if anyone would care to comment, it might add a little extra interest.
three .................. Reg. 394205 dated 14th February 1883 - Percival Vickers, Manchester.
Another example showing the internal pressed outline created by the plunger - plus the appearance of a specified capacity - in this case a half pint.
four ................. Reg. 402690 dated 24th August 1883 - Percival Vickers, Manchester.
an attractive tumbler with simple pressed design and with what appears to be a neatly finished bevel where the base meets the sides.
this completes the pix I have, taking the date to within about six moths of the end of the lozenge period, after which the numbering system started again, from No. 1, though I'd suggest there's less interest in material post February 1884. After this date, Registration, if allocated by the BoT, appears as simply a number.
Should there be others from the diamond years, that I've missed, then feel free to add to this thread. :)
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Number Two: Yep the 420 is the model number in the Percival Vickers catalogue also. It was a half pint tumbler.
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Re; reply #72 - RD 320330 of 12 April 1878 -Parcel 1, registrant William Frederick Williams of 3, 4 & 5, Little Windmill Street, Golden Square, London:
TNA design registry summary at
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=glass+design+320330
shows that the registrant was hedging his bets with this design with its purported multiplicity of uses because RD 320330 was not only registered in Class 3 (Glass), but also Class 1 (Metal), Class 2 (Wood) and Class 4 (Earthenware) !
The following entry at
http://www.antiquebox.org/index-of-british-makers-and-retailers/#W
in a Directory of British antique dressing case, antique toilet box, antique jewellery box and antique writing box manufacturers and retailers, shows William Frederick Williams & Co. (also trading as Williams and Co. ) trading at 4 London addresses :
William Frederick Williams & Co Williams & Co (William Frederick Williams): 8 Broad Street, Golden Square, London 51 Marshall Street, Soho, London 3, 4 & 5 Little Windmill Street, Golden Square, London 21 Heddon Street, Regents Street, London.
The Post Office London Directory, 1882, page 464
http://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/digital/collection/p16445coll4/id/38745
describes William F. Williams & Co. as "dressing case makers".
Furthermore,
https://www.sothebys.com/en/articles/a-silver-menagerie-of-majestic-beasts
shows, among items from a sale in May 2019, "A VICTORIAN SILVER NOVELTY SMOKER'S LIGHTER, WILLIAM FREDERICK WILLIAMS & CO., LONDON, 1879. ESTIMATE: £3,0005,000" with the comment:
During the Victorian age, silver novelty animals were produced in a different context, made to mirror social and political events of the time, as well as providing an interesting talking point. Lot 354, as an example of the former, was most probably made in response to Charles Darwins provocative and often lampooned On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, first published in 1859. The controversy stirred by the book was still alive in the 1870s and in May 1874 The London Sketch Book, a short-lived illustrated magazine, published a caricature of a monkey-like Darwin holding a hand mirror up to the face of his companion, an actual monkey. The latters head and features are uncannily like those depicted by this unusual lighter.
So it would appear that William Frederick Williams was a high end retailer and/or manufacturer of a variety of (sometimes very expensive] wares.
Little Windmill Street, Haymarket, was renamed in 1885, when along with Cambridge Street it became part of Lexington Street. Numbers were changed, so the Site Nos. 3, 4 & 5 Little Windmill Street is now occupied by the modern buildings of 6-10 Lexington Street (on the eastern side of the road just up from the junction of Lexington Street with Brewer Street).
Little Windmill Street lay about 75 metres NE from Golden Square, which is bounded on the NE side by Bridle Lane (separated from it by, and running parallel to, Great Pulteney Steet. (see photo below of a map of Little Windmill Street from the 1790s showing #s 3, 4 and 5).
Golden Square, Soho, London, in the City of Westminster, is one of the historic squares of Central London. The square is just east of Regent Street and north of Piccadilly Circus. it is in the heart of Soho and next door to Mayfair: the two most vibrant districts in the West End.
Until its surrender to the Crown in 1536 for the formation of the Bailiwick of St. James the site of Golden Square and the adjacent streets had formed part of the lands belonging to the Mercers' Company. In 1548 in January 1559/60 it was included in Queen Elizabeth's freehold grant of some sixty acres in the parish of St. Martin in the Fields (together with other lands elsewhere) to William Dodington of London, gentleman. By 1585 the windmill from which Great Windmill Street (and in which now stands the famous Windmill Theatre) and Little Windmill Street take their names had been erected, and the site of Golden Square formed part of the wide area loosely referred to as Windmill Fields. (The famous Windmill Theatre on Great Windmill Street) also takes its name from the same Windmill Fields). By 1670, part of the lands of Windmill fields were known as Gelding Close, presumably so-called as a pasture for geldings, but the name Golden Square, which was in use by the end of the seventeenth century, was evidently a refined corruption. By then it had become valuable as building land, for houses were already going up to the south and east of it. Planned development Golden Square had been designed to contain 'such houses as might accommodate Gentry', and by 1707, thirty-nine houses (in 4 ranges) had been completed and occupied in 1707, there were living in the square a duchess, six peers or future peers (including a future duke), a bishop, six army officers and a number of other residents of title. It very rapidly became the political and ambassadorial district of the late 17th and early 18th centuries, housing the Portuguese embassy among others. It was bounded by Silver (now Beak) Street, Bridle Lane, Brewer Street and Warwick Street.
Fred.
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thanks for the confirmation Neil.
Fred - your replies are exhaustive to the point of perfection, almost ;) - seriously, a very big thanks as always. :)
Well, that was the end of the line for goblets and tumblers - I'd like to be able to say
. "I'm left with nothing to do, but that wouldn't be true - it's back to bookbinding, the stamp collection, woodwork, replacing the roof on the shed, and pondering if there might be another subject matter from 1842 - 1884 that we might explore.
suggestions on a postcard to ...
. ;) ;)
P.S. I snapped the attached today - for me the quality is exceptional but more luck than judgment - a small supplementary lens hand held between the camera and subject - trying to kneel whilst holding lens, camera in the other hand, and trying not to frighten what in fact was a pair in cop., although you don't see the other one in the picture.
Apart from knowing that it's probably a damsel fly, I've no idea of the species - it's the bright blue ones that are usually in the garden.
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Not sure if this adds anything to this thread but I couldn't find another reference on search.
This book details a visit in 1843 by Prince Albert to Birmingham.
On page 57 it discusses the visit to Messrs. Bacchus and Son in Dartmouth Street and talks about a piece of pressed glass being made and refers to it being the 'new mode of pressing':
'.. and a very elegant glass centre-piece was produced by the new mode of pressing. A process somewhat similar to die-stamping.'
As an aside for future searches, it also talks about them blowing a two handled cup during the visit.
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Progresses_of_Queen_Victoria_and_Pri/v69fAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=visit+birmingham+queen+adelaide&pg=PA115&printsec=frontcover
Source: The Progresses of Queen Victoria and Prince Albert in France, Belgium and England - published by William Frederick Wakeman (my note - 1843)
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Hello flying free ......... I suspect the answer is 'no', since details lack specifics, and are too scant to be of much use, but your addition, and the hard work you always put into posts for the GMB are interesting for a variety of other reasons - not the least of which - in this instance - is the unbelievable working class patronage toward Royalty and the general overview of social activities early in Victoria's reign. When you read much of the other text of your post, then how this country avoided the same fate as Russia and France I shall never know. I've not a clue as to what is meant by 'die stamping' a centre piece of glass - in materials other than glass it's a cold process whereby a die under pressure creates a pattern in relief - usually - on metal. Certainly it's not what I had first thought, which was the creation of something like an epergne. Reference to blowing a two handled cup was perhaps something to do with a loving cup do you think? This thread looks to have received a fair amount of interest in the little over a year since my final contribution, so glad it was a minor success. I only wish quality glass could be found as easily now as it was ten years ago or more, but it was enjoyable while it lasted - I'd love to go back and experience those early morning boot sales again, and the fun of charity shops. If I come back again I shall make a point of coming back with all my knowledge and will request I'm dropped off somewhere in the mid 1950s;-) my best wishes to you.
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Hi :) I was just putting the info here because of the dating of early pressed glass, and specifically at Bacchus really I suppose.
That book was written about the visit in 1843 and refers to it then as 'the new mode of pressing'.
So I added it in case anyone was looking for dates of early pressed glass. For Bacchus that seems to be about 1843 ish according to this report.
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Hi m - yes, you're possibly right about the date - from our point of view a shame that the article lacks details as to actual processes, but can't expect too much in a review that was more concerned with the 'Royal aspect'. The date of the Royal visit is close to the commercial beginnings of pressed glass, and at a time when the factories were still trying to get things right. When I contributed here regularly, I don't recall much chit chat about George Bacchus and pressed glass (who incidentally, were known as Bacchus & Green prior to 1840) - why the change of name I've no idea. I could be very wrong but thought they were better known for high end glass and p/weights - anyone who has a copy of McConnell's 'Decanter' book can see his comments about Bacchus being regarded as arguably England's finest answer to Egermann's flashed and cut to clear.
Quoting from Ray Slack, he says ..............""The first makers of pressed glass in England were Rice Harris, Bacchus & Green, and John Gold, all of Birmingham"". Although Ray doesn't attach dates to his comments, obviously it must be prior to 1840 due the the name of Bacchus & Green. After a while, as we know, it snowballed, and toward the late 1840s pressed glass was being made in prodigious quantities. I've still no idea what your article's author was implying re the comments about George Bacchus and die stamping - I don't recall modern authors using such an expression or phrase, and as I say I don't recall George Bacchus being a big player in the pressed glass trade, as the C19 wore on. Mark West says of George Bacchus .................... ""George Bacchus & Son - Birmingham, England. Established c. 1840. Influenced by Bohemian glass. Decorated opal ware, transfer printed with black, sepia and polychrome . ......."" ...... so no mention of pressed glass there.
The glass tax wasn't abolished until 1845 (and had been doubled in 1800), and was a millstone around the necks of those makers of pressed glass mainly for the reason that pressed wares were thicker and heavier than blown glass and attracted more duty - so in those early years of making pressed wares it wasn't for the faint hearted. Phoebe Phillips comments .. "Bacchus & Green were amongst some of the best-known makers" - though the author doesn't provide attribution/provenance for that statement - it's possible the lady was confusing pressed wares with other methods of glass making.
Regret I seem not to have my copy of Hajdamach's book on C19 glass - it's possibly he may have provided some better info. on George Bacchus.
I've had a look at the Diamond (lozenge) Design Nos. for the ten years from 1840 - 1850, but can't see a single Registration for George Bacchus, so can only think that whatever it was that so impressed everyone on the Royal visit in 1843 turned out to be less impressive in a commercial sense.
By the way m, I wasn't trying to be critical of your comments - just don't think this article re pressed glass has any mileage as to real usefulness, but always good to have any information:-)
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Showell's Dictionary of Birmingham, written in the 1880s I think, says:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Showell%27s_Dictionary_of_Birmingham.djvu/329
'American writers claim that the first pressed glass tumbler was made about 40 years back in that country, by a carpenter. We have good authority for stating that the first pressed tumbler was made in this country by Rice Harris, Birmingham, as far back as 1834. But some years earlier than this dishes had been pressed by Thomas Hawkes and Co., of Dudley, and by Bacchus and Green, of Birmingham. '
m