Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: catshome on February 03, 2020, 02:45:49 PM
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Just a good, honest, piece of glass that, for some unknown reason, is one of my favourite things. Nothing particularly special about it. No Scandinavian flair, no pop of colour or uranium glow, and yet...… it will be hard to part with.
A shade under 8" high and 4" rim and foot diameter. Weight 649g. Body of the glass is approx. 4mm thick. It rings like a bell. The foot is very flat, with a 1.5" polished pontil mark - very deep.....0.5cm at the centre. So much wear on the base that any maker's mark is likely to have been worn away or covered - this is a piece that has definitely had a life. There is a slight grey tinge to the glass - I've tried to show it against white paper. A few bubbles and a small frit.
I had a good look for gadget marks, but the only potential one is an indent in one place where the stem meets the bowl - as there isn't one on the opposite side, I'm not sure if it's a tool mark at all.
There's a band under the cutting on the rim - two bands in places - is this where the cutting tool touched the glass, so not exactly intended? The cuts on the body are quite crisp and the centres of the flowers nicely concave.
Paul - this one's for you! I even tried your fridge photography as well. I'm going out on a limb and saying early Victorian for this piece.
Be gentle - I'm still learning!
Cat
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a few more pics - third one is just to try and show slight grey tint to glass
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personally, I'd suggest that folk who have managed over 1000 posts don't deserve to be treated gently or with sympathy ;D ;)
Nice celery, though to be truthful such things aren't easy to date accurately - why didn't you buy something with a lozenge cat? ;) The almost dead pan cylinder shape is unusual - often there is some degree of graduation to the body shape, albeit tapering only slightly perhaps, and I don't recall seeing this virtually uniform cylinder shape before.
The cutting appears simplistic, and lacks any contrived or complex design - we're not seeing a C19 decoration showing their passion for ferny pteridomania, but you see how cleverly the cutter has used the wheel at an angle to create petals in this stylized flower head.
I don't do fridge photography - I followed Dirk's (I think it was Dirk) suggestions of buying some whiteish opaque acrylic - bend to shape using a heat gun - and then try underlighting to illuminate the subject - it's a way of avoiding bright glare, and tends to diffuse the light. Needs a bit of practise but generally works o.k.
I had a feeling that Dirks instructions had been saved somewhere - will try and locate.
The colour of this one is good at indicating the piece has some age, likewise the wear suggests it was made by Ravenscroft. ;)
Honestly, I really don't know what to think - I've had acres of celeries over the years, some moulded, others cut - I think I now have only one.
Both the shape and cutting, on this one, worry me when trying to date this in line with your suggestion of early Victorian - and looking in Silber & Fleming I'm not seeing this style of cutting or body shape. Am afraid I'm unable to go with your date line, and though I can't support my suggestion, feel that this one is more likely to be late Victorian or first quarter C20. Sorry.
However, if you can support your earlier dating with some examples or some other indication, then will eat my words. :) Your glass might possibly be Continental - we so often unconsciously assume our pieces originate in the U.K.
Apparently, the gadget mark disappeared c. 1900 - Wilkinson says it was superseded by the use of asbestos string to hold the glass, thus avoiding permanent marks, as had been the case with the gadget.
You should buy Wilkinson, despite Keith's comments, it's a worthwhile book for the few quid it costs.
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All the book recommendations, Paul, I will end up with a library and no glass by the time I've finished! I will keep it a bit longer and revisit your comments, as it would be good to know more about it. I'll also have a look at my Silber & Fleming (I do have some books!) when I get back home. I agree, the very straight cylinder shape will probably be the key to this one. I couldn't find a name for the type of cutting on the rim - they look like tiny hearts at certain angles - do you know what it's called? Thanks for all the suggestions. I wouldn't be surprised if it was continental, something about the style of the flowers made me wonder, but I'll keep an open mind for now.
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unfortunately, I can't see the rim cutting clearly, that particular image lacks sufficient contrast - I did think possibly relief diamonds, but not sure what I'm looking at really - as a decorative feature it seems to be at odds with the rest of the cutting, perhaps. If you can improve the quality of your picture for that part of the celery, it might help.
See here for Dirk's suggestions on his photography set up for improving your pictures ………………………… Dirk was a great contributor to the GMB, though haven't been aware of seeing his name for a while …………….. https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,62864.msg352891.html#msg352891
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Hi, nice glass, I wouldn’t want to guess at dating :)
I had a good look for gadget marks
You say it also has a large polished pontil scar but as I understood it, the gadget was used instead of the pontil rod so that you might a gadget mark or a pontil scar but not both? Mike.
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I rather associate daisy etchings with having Bohemian origins.
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never having spent time watching the making of a wine or celery, I don't know if, traditionally, there's a difference in how wine glasses and celeries are held whilst being finished - the former of course being far lighter than the celery, some of which are of substantial weight.
We can say though that hand made wine glasses were finished using the pontil rod exclusively up to c. 1880, after which the gadget appears - though I'd suggest that both methods existed at the same time for several decades after that date.
The solid pontil rod appears to have continued in use for many years after the demise of the gadget, which according to Wilkinson was superseded by use of asbestos string, which was an improvement insofar it avoided the gadget leaving marks on the foot of the wine glass.
Quite why it should be so difficult to find three part drinking glasses, showing evidence of the gadget 'mark', is a mystery, unless the skill of workers was such that they could remove the outline of the gadget mark, on the foot, by fire polishing.
Taking a complete guess, it's possible that celeries, being much heavier, were only ever finished on a pontil rod - of course if someone has a celery showing a gadget mark, then my idea is wrong completely.
None of the decoration on this celery, is produced by etching, though am sure 'cutting' was what was actually meant - and this one could be from eastern Europe possibly, though doubt we shall ever know. I seem to recall that Continental glass from the period I suggested is often of a very slightly yellowish hue, but probably not a hard and fast rule.
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Thanks all. I have tried again to capture the cutting around the rim in the picture below. Just wondering if there is any particular name for this cut
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how about mitred scallops :) - certainly they appear as very short mitres, and seem to provide a similar visual effect to edge scalloping.
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Hmm..… not quite there yet. Found this bowl with "thumb pattern rim". I think it's fairly close to mine, although the ones on mine are really small, so direct comparison is difficult. I'll see if I can find anything else with the thumb pattern rim.
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I've just checked a Harbridge confiture and a Tudor confiture.
The Harbridge has nicks that turn out to be heart shaped around the rim, just like this celery - with a line down the middle.
It's been done by cutting twice. It just turns out heart shaped because of the curve of the glass and the edge.
The Tudor has a ring of curved cuts - no line down the middle where two cuts meet.
Both sets of cuts render the confiture unsuitable for drinking champagne. ;)
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Am not surprised I'm adrift regarding the naming of cat's feature on the rim of this celery, and admit to taking a bit of a humorous punt - but a mitre cut it is, and like most mitres it's created by making the cut with the edge of the wheel, thus you have two halves so to speak meeting in a bottom line of the cut. On the bottoms of early C19 decanters etc., you can usually detect those mitres made by two passes of the wheel - usually one side of the mitre is of a different length to the other - I'm not entirely convinced cat's celery rim cutting has been created using two cuts - but stand to be corrected. ;)
It is different to a scallop cut - as described by Sue on the Tudor confiture - which is a cut formed by a single radius curve and without the bottom line.
"Found this bowl with "thumb pattern rim" - sorry, are we supposed to be seeing an image of a thumb print rim cat?
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Oops......forgot to attach the link to the bowl with a thumb pattern rim
https://www.ukauctioneers.com/auction_catalogue.cfm?A-HEAVY-CUT-GLASS-FRUIT-BOWL-HAVING-THUMB-PATTERN-RIM-WITH-STAR-CUT-BASE-27CM-DIAMETER&itemID=20E9CB0FD7D62BF9D7E6FECEFF5809EAEF26ABCC&auction=21EDCF0ED6&showLots=50&sortBy=lotsort&lotView=list&imagesOnly=N