Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: BlueOctopus on February 16, 2020, 03:49:02 PM
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I did it, I couldn´t stand it and bought a quite damaged piece, but I love it.
don´t know why, but I think it is french, first I thought Baccara, but the Baccara dolphins don´t fit.
the dolphins are pressed glass, the bowl and the food are i think cut glass. The rim it cutted for sure.
When I asked you some weeks ago if it is worth it, somebody mentioned that it might be a marriage, if this is I think a wonderful marriage. The damage of this piece are the connections from fish to bowl, they are not original and during the shipping one of the glass connections to the bowl broke.
anybody around who has an idea how old and maker?
Monika
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Stumbled across this while searching for something else, these dolphins look quite old 1840-80 both Richardsons ( Hajdamach book on English glass)and Molineaux and Webb made them amongst many others. Also French and Bohemian and The USA but I think these are early English ones, a few months back there were a couple of just dolphins on eBay not attached to anything. So I think this is a nice marriage. The were used for all sorts of supports for candelabras, candle holders, comport holders etc.
Cheers
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Perhaps investigate Harrach - Neuwelt.
I'll try and find the original Pressglas Korrespondenz link for you but here's a quick link.
See seite 3 von 6 and bottom right.
https://www.yumpu.com/de/document/read/25481638/mit-geringeltem-schwanz-zwei-opak-blaue-vasen-mit-weintrauben
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Im so happy
I didn´t expect any new posts since such a long time. And Flying free, I own the pressglas Korrespondenz from the beginning on, was sure that i already saw the dolphins once before, but I couldn´t find them. It is a awfull lot of informations in there, you Need a lot of time to go through everything.
on side 2 bottom left, I´m pretty sure that that should be my bowl ,but only single dolphin.
I have to ad some better brighter pics :-[ >:(
Thank You both for a new result i can build on
Monika
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Yes, seite 2 left hand bottom but it's probably showing a smaller version and that's why only one dolphin :)
So Fruit bowl with Dolphin, Harrach, 1840-1841
Illustration also shown in From Neuwelt to the Whole World.
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Kev, sorry I was just adding the information from that line drawing so it was saved on here :-[
I'm pretty sure it's Neuwelt but could we put a question mark next to it for now please ? Perhaps until someone can confirm a link to the cut design on the bowls? I couldn't see an absolute match to the cutting in the book but I was rushing a little. I'll try and take a look again later.
Just to add, in
the book it says:
Source - From Neuwelt to the Whole World, Jan Mergl 2012 pp113
'At the beginning of the 1840s the Neuwelt glassworks introduced a completely new design into production: bowls with a foot in the form of a dolphin that were made by hot moulding (so called 'free hand'), or pressing, and were then refined by cutting, painting (in gold) and engraving. One of the first invoice records (including a schematic drawing) of these objects comes from 1840 and describes '2 Chrystall Fruchtschalen mit mattirten Saufisch auf Sokl( Note No136 - Saufisch is the archaic German word for Dolphin)' - ' 2 bowls in crystal glass with a matte dolphin on the base'. This type of artefact continued to be manufactured by the factory long after the mid-nineteenth century (Note 137 - see Zelasko 2005, cat. no. 19-20)
Mod: Title reset to exclude ID. Thread moved back to Glass.
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Easy to reply.... wow...thank you.
Better than I ever expected :D :D
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Please could you take a clear photograph against a white background and one perhaps against a dark background - so we can see the profile shape of the piece and the cutting and colour of the glass a bit more clearly?
Thank you! :D
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Yes I will :-* :-*
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Just curious to know, does the bowl sit on the stand properly without the dolphins in place?
Or/And does it sit properly with the dolphins (apart from the damage)?
I've checked the book and as far as I can see the pictures are of one dolphin only.
There is some more information here in another Pressglass-Korrespondenz but I think it's dated 2005 so there may be more information out now after the Harrach From Neuwelt to the Whole World book (see seite 92 right hand top bowl and dolphin). There are probably more but I'll need to search a bit later and add them:
https://pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2005-3w-kilian-bacc-delphin.pdf
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Hello sorry , my english is failing in the moment. I don’t understand what you mean with sit on the stand.
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Hi,
Wenn Sie die Delphinstützen entfernen, sitzt die Schüssel richtig auf dem Ständer?
I have found another dolphin page for you to look at. You might be able to compare the Harrach dolphin with your stand more clearly. It's not a great picture but the best so far.
https://www.yumpu.com/de/document/read/16359863/adler-delphine-und-busten-aus-pressglas-graflich-schaffgotsch-
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So after some hours of research in the Pressglas Korrespondenz I´m pretty sure that my bowl is one of the Harrach /Meyr piece. All three articles claim that they are all pretty sure that it is Harrach, but all are not 100 % sure.
fact is, my bowl has the same dolphins than in this link, even the rim of the bowl is quite equal.
https://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2005-2w-sg-harrach-delphine.pdf
you ask me if the bowl fits when the dolphins are taken of, yes it would, but unfortunately I had to fix the bowls because the old connection got lost. I don´t even have an idea how they were fixed in the past.If you would take the dolphins out the bowls would fit together, like in the link the left bowls, only oval not round
I think the dolphins are made in one glasfactory the bowls in an other, the dolphins have a slightly greyisch/ yellow glas, the bowls have a very white clear glas.
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If made by Harrach I would think they have both been made by Harrach though despite the difference in colour.
If I recall correctly from what I read, Harrach did do some experiments with pressed glass and some items from pressed glass. Although again, if I have remembered correctly, Bohemian glass makers were keen on handblown glass rather than pressed glass. They didn't really go down the pressed glass route in a major way from what I understand.
So they will have made the dolphins at one time/place/from one pot and pressed then cut/finished and the bowls will have been handblown as usual from another time or another pot then cut as usual - if you see what I mean? Then fitted together as one design.
Harrach definitely made dolphins and bowls with dolphin stands as there was an invoice dating to 1840
Just to add, in
the book it says:
Source - From Neuwelt to the Whole World, Jan Mergl 2012 pp113
'At the beginning of the 1840s the Neuwelt glassworks introduced a completely new design into production: bowls with a foot in the form of a dolphin that were made by hot moulding (so called 'free hand'), or pressing, and were then refined by cutting, painting (in gold) and engraving. One of the first invoice records (including a schematic drawing) of these objects comes from 1840 and describes '2 Chrystall Fruchtschalen mit mattirten Saufisch auf Sokl( Note No136 - Saufisch is the archaic German word for Dolphin)' - ' 2 bowls in crystal glass with a matte dolphin on the base'. This type of artefact continued to be manufactured by the factory long after the mid-nineteenth century (Note 137 - see Zelasko 2005, cat. no. 19-20)
.
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I just ordered the Harrach book, looking foward what I find there.
But what you said fits to my meaning that the bowls are Harrach, blown and cutted, the dolphins are from a different glasmaker.
But I´m very happy that you resolved a mystery for me. Even when the connections are missing and are awful bad repared, I think this is a realy remarkable piece
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Oh it is indeed! It is absolutely gorgeous.
And it's not easy to find pieces from that era. They are around and in museum collections but I don't often see bowls like this and certainly not this big.
Have you had a search online of the museum collections? Oh I have just thought of something.
You could email Harrach directly.
Again my memory isn't great but I seem to remember there being a fire and the pattern books being lost, however,they just might be able to help you a bit more especially as it is such an unusual piece.
Also, in the Corning musuem, and somewhere on this site (I'll see if I can find it in a minute) there is a link to an early Meyr's Neffe catalogue I think.
I will try and find the link for you and post it later or tomorrow morning.
The Harrach book is fantastic - and huge. I've read it in sections over time, rather than reading the whole thing at once which I keep meaning to do!
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Since yesterday I didn´t even had an idea that Harrach could be the solution. I was more in the french direction, but in this articles from the Pressglas Korrespondenz Baccara is often mentioned with the dolphins, so that was maybe not absolutely wrong.
when I have the book, I´ll maybe try to connect Harrach directly
I just started a new post with another mystery, but the posting faild, dont know why, I try again.
???
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The rim of the bowl, the way it is cut always makes me think Bohemian. I could be wrong but I would not see it and think French because of that.
So a small example here:
https://www.glaswolf.de/Biedermeier_UEberfan.288+B6YmFja1BJRD0yODgmcHJvZHVjdElEPTI0NDImcGlkX3Byb2R1Y3Q9Mjg4JmRldGFpbD0_.0.html
or here
https://www.glaswolf.de/Biedermeier_Goldrubi.288+B6YmFja1BJRD0yODgmcHJvZHVjdElEPTMyMzQxJnBpZF9wcm9kdWN0PTI4OCZkZXRhaWw9.0.html
Or this one
https://www.glaswolf.de/Biedermeier_UEberfan.288+B6YmFja1BJRD0yODgmcHJvZHVjdElEPTI0NjEmcGlkX3Byb2R1Y3Q9Mjg4JmRldGFpbD0_.0.html
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RE Harrach and their pressed glass:
See page 275 - The Legend of Bohemian Glass, Antonin Langhammer
(top of centre column)
Under paragraph title 'Pressed Glass'
'...Beginning in 1830 the technique was also used in England and France. The first to employ it in Bohemia was probably the Harrach glassworks in Novy Svet (1833), but only on a limited basis. Johann Pohl feared that it could deprive local glasscutters of their jobs.' (My bold)
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UwLCa_h3hTEC&pg=PA275&dq=harrach+pressed+glass&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiPuPPezp3sAhXTSBUIHZmHDG4Q6AEwAXoECAYQAg#v=onepage&q=harrach%20pressed%20glass&f=false
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Checkout this link to a dolphin lamp, dolphins look very similar.
https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/754771032/antique-victorian-clear-pressed-glass?ref=user_profile
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They do, but no indication as to where the dolphin was pressed or by which glasshouse.
Harrach was a massive glassmaker. It exported chandelier parts for one example, to the UK (Osler) that I've read about.
Also, as far as I recall, it says in the book they didn't make complete chandeliers but did make the parts.
I'm not saying the dolphins on the bowls is definitely Harrach. We don't know that yet. But it's important to keep an open mind as these were 'parts' like chandelier droplets etc, which could be exported and added to any design.
As an example, not for the first time,I've recently in the last couple of days seen an important piece of glass from that era (1830s/40s) listed as by an English maker when I know it was actually produced by Harrach. The last time was an important, very expensive vase sold by one of the big Auction Houses.
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I came across this post of yours, Flying free: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,60747.msg342587.html#msg342587
I looked it up and in Broadfield House collection there are two bowls on dolphin stands, identified as Richardson's
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST239/
and here with the frosted dolphin
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_BH2136b/
The single dolphin on the first bowl looks like a closer match than any of the other examples on the links in this thread, when comparing curve of the tail and size and position of fins etc. I think there might be very subtle differences in some detail of the modelling - such as lines around the eye - but it’s hard to tell.
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Yes, that one is interesting. I've never been able to find any more information on that picture/plate in the book which shows the dolphin tazza, as to where that tazza was shown/pattern number reference or anything. I couldn't see any more information in the book on it either. It is however a large and detailed book so I may have missed it. But from the caption under the plate it does not seem to specifically state it's Richardson's although it comes under the chapter' The Richardson Dynasty' in the book.
My hesitation is also because, in that Colour Plate 10 in the book, there is shown a dark red streaky salt cellar. It's facet cut and to me looks very much as though it's Bohemian red hyalith glass.
The description says 'The salt cellar matches the design illustrated in Plate 61 while the....' Except that whichever way I position it, whilst looking at the photo of the piece in the book and comparing it to the design drawing in plate 61 I cannot see it matches the design in Plate 61. So I have been wondering whether it's actually Bohemian red hyalith.
And yes, I can see the dolphins in that tazza look similar to the OP's dolphins. My questioning in my head has been over the intervening years, is the red tazza with the dolphins which appears under the Richardson Dynasty section in the book, actually a Bohemian piece?
Awkward :-[. I don't have the experience or breadth of knowledge, or authority to question really. However there's something about both those pieces that doesn't sit right at the moment. Probably it's just lack of evidence and I'm wrongly questioning them. But maybe they are Bohemian?
And you can see why I was questioning in that thread link you gave:
Because the dolphins on the bowl in the book and linked to the Dudley museums collection tazza,look similar to the dolphins in the link I gave to the piece sold as Mount Washington/Moser here
http://ancientpoint.com/inf/35790-rare_19thc_victorian_cranberry_glass__figural_dolphin_vase_mt___washington_moser.html
And I'm pretty sure that piece is Bohemian.
There are only a few pieces identified as Richardson in the online Black Country glass collection. Looking through all the pieces there are even fewer which include ruby glass to provide some form of comparison. None of the ruby glass items are comparable to the tazzas. In terms of the panelled gilding there is one other piece in the collection that has this vaguely similar type of decoration - a very bright green jade glass jug here:
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST140/
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Further to my long post above, see the bowl on seite 92 of the attached - left hand side, similar (maybe) dolphin, gilded bands dark red. This is probably one of the reasons why I am querying the tazza on the Black Country museums website as being Richardson.
https://pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2005-3w-kilian-bacc-delphin.pdf
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I hadn’t realised the Blackcountry Tazza was the one in Hajdamach that thewingedsphinx mentioned in reply #1. (Should’ve got the book out!). The caption for Colour Plate 10 with the dolphin tazza does say at the beginning “Colour Plate 10. Richardson glassware from the 1840s”. I thought the salt matched looking quickly but you’re right, completely different.
The dolphin in you’re link above (reply #22) sold as Mount Washington/Moser is similar to the tazza and blueoctopus’s but it looks different as it is more ‘s’ shaped. The tail looks to come further over the head and there is a tighter curve at the top of the tail and the belly fin is different. The one in reply #23 above it’s hard to tell. I wondered if it’s like your uranium becher where near identical items were being made all over. It’s hard to compare grainy images of dolphins...I’m going to be dreaming about dolphins. Which museum and publication’s attribution trumps the other’s?
In reply #17 The rim of the bowl, the way it is cut always makes me think Bohemian
but doesn’t it also resemble British designs shown in Hajdamach such as those in Plates 63 and 64 by Rice Harris? Is it the case that a rim like that is more typical on bohemian glass than British? But then the rims of the Celeries from Webb Richardson c1830s Plate 39 don’t look a million miles away either.
I have much less experience or breadth of knowledge so will leave it up to others ;)
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No please keep challenging. I'm very often wrong :-X
But glad you agree on that salt.
Yes I see what you mean on the Rice Harris crenellated rims especially on the vase on right of the top left hand group
Blue Octopus, where did you buy your bowl set from btw? Which country please?
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Hello you Both, it is to late and I‘m too tired to understand your postings in detail. But I‘m not too tired to answer: I‘m German and I bought it in Germany, south Germany.
And... very seldem english glass found it way to Germany, but you find a lot of bohemia glass.
I‘m proud that this centerpiece is triggering so many discussions. I‘m looking forward to get the Harrach book.
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Hello again
I got the Harrach ( from Neuwelt to the whole world) book now, absolutely worth the money. I´m more and more convinced that we are on the right track.
Now I took my heart into my hands ;D :o and surched for Jan Mergl email adress and the contact to Harrach itself. I think I found them both and wrote an email to both, looking forward if one will answer.
Cross your fingers
Monika
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Your dolphin exactly the same, is shown in the Passau book DAs Bohmische Glass 1700-1950 band III Historismus on page 148 plate lll. 195 Obstschale mit Delphin
I'd as Neuwelt (that is Harrach) 1860-1870 .
It is shown supporting an 'ice glass effect' crackled bowl on an 'ice glass effect' crackled foot. So it's a different bowl and foot glass effect to yours but the Delphin is the same.
It says
quote:
'...Vollplastischer gepresster Delphin, uberschliffen und mattiert....'
Then also
quote:
'Die Delphinplastik ist in den "Fakturenbuchern" zum erstenmal am 27.11.1840, S. 264, verzeichnet. Noch in den siebziger Jahren findet man sie hier, zusammen mit plastischen Schwanen, als Fusse fur extravagante Obstschalen. Die gepressten Glasplastiken wurden ausschliesslich von Neuwelter Glas-schneidern uberschliffen und mattiert. Namentlich bekannt ist Johann Mallin ("Glasschneiderbuch" 1865, Nr. 1029/972, S.216). - Jar.Br.'
This translates as:
'The dolphin sculpture is recorded in the "Invoicing Books" for the first time on November 27, 1840, p. 264. You can still find them here in the seventies, together with plastic swans, as feet for extravagant fruit bowls. The pressed glass sculptures were sanded and matted exclusively by Neuwelter glass cutters. Johann Mallin is known by name ("Glasschneiderbuch" 1865, No. 1029/972, p.216). - Jar.Br. '
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see my post above - re your bowl, if it were mine I would be thinking it was much earlier than 1860s70s. It has a Biedermeier look which would put it 1850 or before as my point of searching for a match. I'm always open to correction :) just saying, that is where my instinct would make me start searching.
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I hadn’t realised the Blackcountry Tazza was the one in Hajdamach that thewingedsphinx mentioned in reply #1. (Should’ve got the book out!). The caption for Colour Plate 10 with the dolphin tazza does say at the beginning “Colour Plate 10. Richardson glassware from the 1840s”. I thought the salt matched looking quickly but you’re right, completely different.
The dolphin in you’re link above (reply #22) sold as Mount Washington/Moser is similar to the tazza and blueoctopus’s but it looks different as it is more ‘s’ shaped. The tail looks to come further over the head and there is a tighter curve at the top of the tail and the belly fin is different. The one in reply #23 above it’s hard to tell. I wondered if it’s like your uranium becher where near identical items were being made all over. It’s hard to compare grainy images of dolphins...I’m going to be dreaming about dolphins. Which museum and publication’s attribution trumps the other’s?
In reply #17 but doesn’t it also resemble British designs shown in Hajdamach such as those in Plates 63 and 64 by Rice Harris? Is it the case that a rim like that is more typical on bohemian glass than British? But then the rims of the Celeries from Webb Richardson c1830s Plate 39 don’t look a million miles away either.
I have much less experience or breadth of knowledge so will leave it up to others ;)
Been searching to find something to demonstrate why I am querying the ruby dolphin stem tazza on page 104 of Charles Hajdamach British Glass 1800-1914. It appears in the section titled Richardson Dynasty Colour Plate 10 caption reading ' Richardson glassware from the 1840s, showing painted, gilded ....'
This is an example of why I query that caption:
https://sammlung.mak.at/sammlung_online?id=collect-35605
m
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Difficult to tell if it's absolutely identical in every single way but it looks pretty similar to me and there will have been more than one mold I'd guess:
Passau Museum delphin dolphins
scroll down to see those on green crackle glass bowls:
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/passau-glass-museum.html
according to the photos on this travel blog those might be Josephinenhutte
https://barbarafalconernewhall.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/IMG_5922-CROPPED-376x580.jpg
https://barbarafalconernewhall.com/2015/07/02/cheap-thrills-at-the-glasmuseum-passau-outrageous-over-the-top-decorative-glass/