Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: bat20 on March 20, 2020, 04:12:34 PM
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Hi ,this two vases are 8" ht with a trailed decoration over mother of pearl background,no Pontil mark and most probably not a top top maker,but they seem fairly old maybe late 19 C ?? Anyone recognise the decor that could be pinned to a maker,thanks.
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nope, sorry :) - but...
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assume an absence of any marks on the top metalwork, which might have helped - the collars appear dark with age - does that sound right? I don't have my booklet on 1920s - 30s Czechoslovakian glass - but these make me think in that direction, possibly - maybe Keith will have a look to see if such a colourway as these is in the book.
Perhaps trailed not quite the correct description for these - marvered in and then mould blown possibly, but they're colourful.
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Hi Paul,I looked at one of the collars and there was no marks,but after your post ii've just looked at the other and there maybe two minute stamps although I'm going to need a loupe to confirm,which I haven't got and I can't find my magnifying glass !!yup they are blackened with age.I've not heard of marvelled before so thanks for that aswell,I assumed some sort of trailing because it carries on over the base in a thin green line,as seen on base shot.
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My tummy says it thinks about Rindskopf.
But it might just be wind. ;)
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likely then that the collars are darkened with oxide on the silver, though they may only be plated and not Sterling. Unfortunately, knowing the maker of the collars, doesn't tell us who made the glass, but at least there's a chance you might get to find out which country of origin.
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You might like to look at this link which shows a similar piece (if not quite the same).
https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/262075-rindskopf-kralik-or-pallme-koenig-i
Tying it down to a specific Bohemian glass factory might be difficult, maybe Obscurities will see it as I'd be interested in what Craig says.
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not Captain Marvel on this occasion ;D - 'Marvering' in the glass making sense indicates that the original gob from the glory hole was picked up on the blowing iron - and here is Harold Newman's explanation ('An Illustrated Dictionary Of Glass') of the word marver ...
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""A polished iron or marble table upon which molten glass, gathered on the end of an iron tube (Blow-Pipe) or rod (Pontil), is rolled into a globular or cylindrical symmetrical mass. The process is known as 'marvering'. As the 'paraison' (gob/gather/bubble) is very much cooler than when it was first attached to the blow-pipe or the pontil, it does not adhere to the marver.""
words in italics are mine.
I'd suggest the word trailing - applying threading or thin trails of glass to a body - should be confined to additional work after the body is cool, and is seen as external ornament, rather than as this piece appears.
IMHO, decoration on the vases here was marvered/rolled into the bodies whilst both the bodies, and this additional colouring, were plastic - thus the marvering forced the colours into the body, such that they are never proud of the surface of the vase - possibly then the vases were blown.
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Thanks Chas,that's great to see something so close and with a date.Very interesting Paul thanks for the education,the decoration is flatter to the body of the glass at the top and slightly more raised as it moves down the body with the thickest part on the base.
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meant to say that I thought the link from Chas was a very good choice and the similarity is quite striking.
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I don't think they have been cleaned for years,so I gave them a gentle sponge over ,here's a better look at the decor.
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I really don't know much about silver marks ,but I think there's a lion ,letter C and leopard,so guessing this gives a date of 1898?,although I'm not certain order changes things.The year of the first automobile fatality in the world.
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can't see your picture of the marks very clearly - the letter 'c' occurs in more than one form over the past 120 odd years - it occurs in 1898/99 as you've suggested, as a plain lower case letter - then again 1918/1919 inn lower case but looking more gothic - and once more in plain upper case in 1938/1939.
The lion and the leopard are included for London whatever the year.
Are you able to read the maker's initials on the collar - perhaps try cleaning the metal around the marks so that the dirt remains only within the marks - this might make for a little more contrast.
If the date letter is a lower case 'c' then you will be correct with your suggestion of 1898 for the metalwork, and presumably the glass will not have been made before that date, so looks like the glass was - either made in the U.K., or imported into the U.K. where the U.K. made collar was then fitted.
Looks like we don't know if the piece in the link has any marks on the metalwork.
Have a feeling I remember seeing that the first U.K. fatality re automobile accident was something like mid 1920s.
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Henry Linfield from Brighton in an electric automobile in 1898,unless it's a internet myth?.I would guess they were stamped on arrival from abroad?,and came in pairs as only one has a mark.I will try to get a clearer pic of the 'c'/'C',I didn't know it was there until I expanded the photo.
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Ok !,forget about poor old Henry Linfield,I've found marks on both now and I would say it' a q ,1911.plus a D.L Mark ?
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agree, it does look like lower case 'q'. The most likely candidate, for a London maker, and bearing in mind the absence of contour around the initials (not in a cartouche), appears to be Schindler & Co. (David Loebl), who apparently had their origins in Germany before transferring to U.K. At this sort of date we're heading toward the late period of art nouveau.
Oh, I don't know - why should we forget about poor old Henry Linfield? ;) he appears to hold a most unique place in the history of the automobile world.
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There's a bit of contour around one 'D',I wonder how easy it's going to be to find out which glass company he bought through?I won't forget about Henry,in fact I live near Brighton and would like to find out which hill he had his unfortunate accident on,there are some very steep one around?,if it did happen around here,it only says he was from Brighton.
https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Henry_Lindfield
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David Loebl did import Rinsdskopf glass in 1911,but I don't know if he traded with anyone else?
https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/114916-rindskopf-green-and-yellow-marbled-vase
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Interesting snippet from the comments on the article,although only supposition
Michelleb007 Michelleb007, 5 years ago
Lisa, I personally wouldn't use the date on a silver collar to date a vase, but it can be used as a good estimate, particularly if it is an earlier date. For example, a Rindskopf with a silver collar dating to 1905 is probably a good indicator that the collar was applied quite close to the making of the vase. However, a Rindskopf with a collar date of 1923 (when Rindskopf's main production was by that time pressed glass) could have been made even ten years earlier, and then the collar applied prior to it actually being sold in an English store.
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good sleuthing - IMHO there is a more than 50/50 chance that the importer, in London, was Loebl/Lobl who, prior to 1918 and before the advent of Czechoslovakia, was bringing glass in from Rindskopf in Germany - and possibly other Continental sources.
This not really not my area - did Rindskopf become Czechoslovakian after 1918, and go on to make pressed glass in the main?
your correspondent from five years back is obviously correct, and you can't relate a silver date to a glass date exactly - and it's always possible that such pieces might have sat on a factory shelf for twelve months, but it's true that it will provide a close enough date for our purposes.
The dιcor on these vases does appear to have a art nouveau appearance, so the date letter of 1911 looks to be reasonably accurate.
You may not find a definite provenance for Rindskopf, unless someone comes up with a catalogue page showing this pattern/design.
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I would agree with Rindskopf as very likely, they had their own aesthetic and to my eye this fits. Another clue is the colour palette used, this may be a bit of red herring but the mix of greens etc seem fairly typical.
That wavy pattern is not exclusive but here it is again, this time far more densely packed on a vase dated 1905.
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quote .....................
"The dιcor on these vases does appear to have an art nouveau appearance". Well, a nod toward nouveau I suppose, but not a design image that originated in that era.
I should have given my comments a little more thought
... we've all seen books with end papers, and sometimes outside covers, adorned in what are known as 'marbled patterned papers' - feathery/rippled/wavy designs created in liquid form - coloured oils or similar on a water surface, and paper laid thereon which picks up the design. The craft dated back to the C17, and put simply
. a comb is dragged across the surface of the liquid and the teeth create the rippling in the colour - you end up with a sort of zig-zag/wavy pattern as with these vases.
With glass, it's possible the vases here owe something to a second half C19 creative invention known as 'pull-up technique - or similar - there must be people here who will know about such things - books are more my thing, not glass - perhaps there is something in Charles Hajdamach to help.
Like the vase John.
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Pulled decoration goes back to the dawn of glass making, making it over 3000 years old:
http://www.electrummagazine.com/2012/09/ancient-egyptian-tilapia-fish-story/
The decorative technique must be older than that, I would imagine first used on pottery vessels. Not my area at all but guessing 10,000 years could be possible.
Nothing new under the sun!
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;D ;D but what do you think John of my suggestion that these vases are examples of that type of decoration - you'd be more likely to know than me if there is a similarity in method of creation
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Must be, all rely on a tool being pulled across a surface.