Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: bottleboy666 on May 02, 2020, 03:50:55 PM
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Hello,I am a newbie and this is my first post. I am gathering information about a bottle that was given to me by my mother many years ago. It is a Crown Mitcham Lavender Bouquet bottle issued by the Crown Perfumery Co. Ltd.
To date, I have established that the bottle dates from 1921, which is when the company became a Limited Company. The bottle is undamaged, has its original stopper and apart from a small tear in the label around its neck, the labels are in good condition. See photos below.
I have already contacted the current day owners of the Crown Perfumery Co (Clive Christian) and various people at the International Perfume Bottle Association (IPBA). Whilst they recognise the glass bottle, none of them have ever seen an example complete with its original labels. Helen Farnsworth, the IPBA archivist indicated that my bottle was not known or recorded in their records. For this reason they consider it extremely rare. Nor had they ever seen Crown Perfumery labels like mine anywhere.
I am hoping that you may be able to add to the information I already have.
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:) Hello and welcome!
It certainly seems to be a very unusual bottle, but perfume bottles are a collectable category all of their own - there are, I am sure, dedicated sites for these alone.
Bottles too, are really another "category" all on their own, with their dedicated collectors and sites.
However, I am sure somebody here will be able to point you in the right direction and even provide links.
I'm not really sure why it works out as being so many different categories for such similar things - but perfume bottles often have metal attached, and that makes them of interest to some silver collectors. The prices of the things in each category in the secondary market cannot really be compared either.
I remember my granny having clear glass bottles of 4711. But not lavender. Crown or otherwise. ;D
A Perfume Bottle will have a premium price over a very similar item of art glass, just because it is a PB. ;D
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I hate to be pessimistic, but in view of your comments re the scarcity of this item - plus the knowledge you have already - then I think it unlikely that we're going to be able to offer additional worthwhile information - I don't recall an item like this before on the GMB.
I could be wrong, but get the impression that there is more collector interest in perfume/scent dispensers - the attractive cameo/cut glass atomisers etc. - that were/are found on ladies dressing tables - rather than bottles such as this. Having said that, regret I've no idea if this was one was a more utility type dressing table dispenser, or simply a container from which you decanted the contents into your dressing table atomiser.
That's not to dismiss the collector interest in this bottle - anything rare and collectible is always of interest - perfume/scents appears to have their origins in pomanders from the Medieval period - supposed to ward off disease.
However, can add some information regarding the use of the word Mitcham in the name of the product - this is part of the London Borough of Croydon, where Surrey abuts the Greater London area, and though now vastly built over, was apparently a well known locality from the C16 to C19 for the growing and processing of lavender and lavender oil - fields ablaze in purple apparently. Lavender water was a great handbag accoutrement for grandmothers in the days of my childhood.
Just as a matter of interest, how does the liquid exit this bottle - is it simply by removing the cork and pouring, or is their some sort of restricted opening in the bottle top to prevent a vast quantity suddenly pouring out?
You might try the V. & A. in London - if they're unable to help you might ask if they can suggest other repositories of such bottles.
Welcome from me too :)
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;D
I was not sure myself whether this would be considered a PB or come under "very interesting and scarce old bottle with fabby information pressed into it, telling you exactly where it came from, AND the original paper label, in great condition, giving further details".
But I was getting worried about Mitcham, given there is a contemporary company which makes toiletries, called Mitchum.
No need for me to fret further. :)
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Many thanks for your comments. I was unaware that the term "Mitcham" referred to the location where the lavender used in the production my bottle's contents had been grown. It is my understanding that ladies would unscrew the crown cap from the threaded stopper which has a narrow hole through it and pour some of the bottle's contents onto a handkerchief. I had been hoping that someone might have been able to provide a more accurate date for my bottle. At the moment, I know that it dates from somewhere between 1921, when the company became "Limited", to 1937 when this fragrance was discontinued. Over this period, if for instance, there had been changes in the labelling or markings on the bottle that members of this site could have alerted me to, I could have achieved a more accurate date for my bottle.
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Hi and welcome to the board. Your bottle interests me greatly, as I love all things dressing table / boudoir related like this. The Crown Perfumery Co. Ltd. was an important producer of quality perfumes, and in addition to the company history on the Clive Christian site, which I presume you've already found, there is also a fascinating history of the company here https://www.saltsscentsandsociety.com/story-salts-scents-society/ with more examples of the types of bottles they designed for their perfumes and products. We also have an earlier topic about Crown Perfumery bottles here https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,48261.0.html which you may find of interest.
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Anne, many thanks for your interest in my post and for the suggested links to visit. As part of my research, I had already reviewed those websites, but thanks anyway. I have looked at them again just to make sure I hadn't missed anything.
Contact with Tori Snowball at Clive Christian, Helen Farnsworth at the IPBA and Barbara W Miller who is a Crown Perfumery collector and wrote the article on the saltsscentsandsociety website, has indicated that my bottle is extremely rare. Primarily because no one has seen the labels before and the particular fragrance was not known or listed, other than references to the Crown Perfumery's introduction of Mitcham Lavender in 1893.
In a recent personal email to me, Barbara wrote, "I have not seen the label before although I have seen the bottle with and without the cities embossed. I do not have this particular fragrance listed in my notes."
Ideally, I would like to sell the bottle to either an avid collector of such items or to a museum such, as the V&A, so that it can be treasured and viewed by the general public.
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Museums are not always that keen to take things. It means they have to take responsibility for them, catalogue and store them safely. It costs them, so they can be quite snippy and disinterested when you approach with your treasures.
Most things in museums are in storage and never see the light of day. But no harm in asking, I suppose. :)
You might find more interest from a much smaller museum which specialises in this sort of thing.
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Barbara Miller sounds very avid - have you popped the question to the lady and asked if she might be interested in buying from you?
Should the answer be negative, then you have nothing to lose by asking the museums, though funds available for purchases are not what they used to be - failing which it might be that wicked ebay.
The Welcome Museum in London might be worth a punt - medicinal, cosmetics, health etc.
Obviously, all values are subjective and complicated perhaps in this instance by the apparent absence of the sale of identical previous examples - do you consider that Barbara Miller might offer a suggestion as to value since she is a well established collector of this manufacturer?
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Thanks all for your sound advice. I totally get where you're coming from Chopin-Liszt regarding finds being locked away out of site in museums. I experienced this with treasure items found with my metal detector. Beautiful pieces of saxon gold and silver jewellery ended up in the vaults of Bristol Museum, never to be seen again.
With regard to my scent bottle, I did ask Barbara Miller about its value and she responded as follows: "It’s in great shape with good color to the labels. I believe it is on the rare side. The slight tear in the neck label is of minimal consequence because of its age. I am going to skip on suggesting a value."
What I wanted was a ball park figure that would help me decide whether it was worth selling or not. Any suggestions on the price for what may be the only existing example of this bottle complete with its labels?
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We don't really discuss values here, I'm afraid. They are arbitrary in the secondary market.
And for something like this, where we cannot find other examples which have sold, even a ball-park figure would be hard to imagine.
We're all mostly just amateur collectors who want to talk about glass and identify it. :)
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Hi - don't really follow the negative response from Barbara Miller re value - after all, this is someone who collects this very material, and is far more likely to have a better idea of worth than the rest of us put together:-) As you say, you were only asking for a ball park guide value.
I doubt that anyone here will even dream of suggesting a value - apart from the fact that we aren't a bottle collecting forum, there is a general rule on the GMB that values are too subjective to be pushed out on an internet forum, though it might be different on a private basis.
Presumably with your finds now residing in the B.M., your received some market value dictated by the treasure trove arrangements - I think it would be perhaps a tad presumptuous to suggest these will never see the light of day - who knows, the museum might have an exhibition in the coming year or two and your pieces may be included. Suppose, as the original finder, you could always ask to see them again:-)
Best of luck with the sale.
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Thanks for your comments regarding values. I hope I didn't offend by asking. I appreciate that it's difficult when there is no yardstick against which to measure.
As suggested, I did receive payouts for the treasure items that were taken for the museums. Payouts were based on estimated auction value, arrived at by a specialist panel known as the Treasure Valuation Committee. All such payouts are split 50/50 between the finder and landowner.
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would imagine you watched the 'Detectorists' on the box - for a while it became one of my favourite programmes - I did once have a machine, and enjoyed the hobby but the Saxons were obviously avoiding me.
Being a little less euphemistic as to why we avoid giving values, might be more easily understood by saying that difficulties could arise easily if we said that something was worth X pounds, but in the event realized only X minus whatever. The seller might be disappointed to a degree that subsequently we found ourselves knee deep in arguments and recriminations - not the sort of discussions anyone wants.
To those not in the know, the approach of avoiding values is seen as out of touch with many forums - especially the States guys, who regularly give values, and whose books are published with values included.
You certainly didn't offend by asking. This isn't my piece of course, but another suggestion re selling might be to enter into a local auction house - not on line - with a reserve to safeguard if necessary, and see what happens.
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Yes, I did watch the Detectorists and loved every episode. I have been detecting since 1988, so could relate completely with some of the more subtle humour that only hardened detectorists would have understood.
Thanks for your support and suggested selling options. I have now discovered lists of appraisers and dealers within the International Perfume Bottle Website that I can contact. I will also explore specialist auctions. Thanks again.
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Having researched dozens of websites and found no other examples or references to Crown Mitcham Lavender Bouquet bottles having existed after William Gossage turned The Crown Perfumery Co. into a Limited company in 1921, I have come to the conclusion that my bottle is unique for the completeness of its type, stopper and labelling. Key references including the Encyclopedia of Perfumes do not list Crown Mitcham Lavender Bouquet as a product of Crown Perfumery Co.Ltd. Unless one of you knows differently of course?
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Woohoo! I have finally been informed by Barbara W Miller, expert in all things Crown Perfumery, that my Crown Mitcham Lavender Bouquet bottle is unique.
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very interesting comment - I'd imagine confirmation of that situation requires some very particular information - possibly from the manufacturer of the bottle plus Crown Perfumery themselves. Assume you have already asked Barbara W. Miller for the lady's source of details as to how this unique status has been arrived at ?
I might have missed seeing it, but believed the bottle manufacturer remained unknown - am I wrong on that. :)
Whilst it's not impossible, it tends to defy common sense that a commercial product such as this - with specially made embossed bottle, crown shaped metal lid, cork and purpose made coloured label - should have been made as a one off.
Despite other examples being unrecorded at the moment, it's always possible one might surface at some time - it's that difficult situation of how do you prove there aren't any others out there, somewhere.
I say all this, with of course, the greatest of respect to Barbara W. Miller, who doubtless has probably forgotten more about this particular area of collecting than I shall ever know.
Forgive the scepticism, and would love to be proven wrong for your sake, but I need to be convinced with something a little more positive. ;D
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Hi Paul, thanks for your comments. Both Tori Snowball, who is the Brand Manager of Clive Christian Perfumes (formerly known as the Crown Perfumery Co) and Barbara W miller who is an expert and author of books on all things Crown Perfumery related, have confirmed that there are no other known examples or documented evidence of Crown Mitcham Lavender having existed in the Gossage era.
I agree that this does not mean that there aren't any other examples in existence, but to date, none have been identified.
As mentioned previously, green glass bottles of this style, both with or without embossing are widely known. However, none have their original labels and sprinkler stopper. It is the labels showing that my bottle contained Crown Mitcham Lavender as opposed to say, Opoponax, which used the same style bottle and is recorded for that era, which make my bottle unique. I believe you are correct that the maker of the green glass bottle is unknown. The nearest match I found was a set of bottle designs where a tapered bottle similar to mine had a number 66 code.
Paul, thanks again for your interest. Now I need a rich buyer!
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wish you luck in selling - let's hope half a dozen more don't suddenly appear just as you're about to sell ;D
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Thanks Paul. Yes, I agree, but if it's taken this long for one to become known, I think it's unlikely that another is likely to appear any time soon. But I suppose, you never know. They could be like buses...
I know it often happens in the coin world, especially when metal detectorists find hoards and flood the market.
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it's true that some of these hoards (probably the Roman ones in particular) consist of thousands of coins, but suppose you could look at it from the point of view that it brings down the cost of such coins that the less affluent of us can then afford to buy the odd one. I once found a hoard of silver threepenny pieces - Edwardian I think - all three of them :) - but my best coin was probably a gothic florin from 1872 - beautiful design and in nearly fine condition - we don't make coins like that any more, and they were 92 per cent silver to boot. But 1905 half crowns eluded me, sadly.
We are probably borderline being kicked into the café with this line of chat - must desist immediately ;)
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I would suspect that it is more finding this moulded bottle with all the extra paper, metal and cork bits is unique, but the moulded bottle itself is highly unlikely to be unique.
Mould making is expensive and time consuming.