Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: neilh on September 03, 2020, 10:08:45 AM
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Does anyone have an idea on this small napkin ring, which is clear glass cased in white and then ruby. It is from a Manchester glass collector but not guaranteed to be from that area, or English. The Manchester firm of Butterworths did make napkin rings in the 1930s, some ruby cased, but not as fancy as this.
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maybe French might be worth a look - Cristallerie Saint-Louis?
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The Corning have this one as Bohemian which I wouldn't disagree with:
https://www.cmog.org/artwork/napkin-ring-0?search=collection%3A9ffebb6b01ddc22edc006ce5f749996d&page=110
Then they also have this - same design, but in a curious chartreuse/pear green which seems a bit odd to me for Bohemian:
https://www.cmog.org/artwork/napkin-ring-1?search=collection%3A87539dc36dc911ff4a96333d4224329a&page=9
But I think the design with the horizontal bands around yours (see link just below for some examples in their museum) is something I see on French overlay glass and not on Bohemian glass. I also think the red is a Saint-Louis red. It reminds me a lot of their overlay paperweights actually.
https://www.mv-bracelet.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/opaline-verre-saint-louis.jpg
I'd search there first. You could try contacting them but I don't know if they normally respond.
More recently it seems, they did these for Hermes:
https://www.interencheres.com/meubles-objets-art/belle-vente-cataloguee-me-miallon-278004/lot-24835496.html
The only thing I'm hesitating over is something weird - the white ring left under the red in the circle facing the camera seems a bit .. 'thick'.. sort of as though it wasn't quite polished away enough somehow. It somehow doesn't look perfect enough if you know what I mean? The rest of it looks perfectly made and cut. So for example see this paperweight where the circular window is perfectly cut with a thin band of white showing:
https://www.thepaperweightcollection.com/products/vintage-saint-louis-art-glass-paperweight-upright-bouquet-faceted-overlay-2
OTOH there is also this dark blue over white that seems to have a thick band of white showing:
https://www.liveauctionworld.com/Cristal-Saint-Louis-1996-Anthemis-magnum-encased-overlay-paperweight-containing-a-moss-ground_i739585
That cutting just jars slightly on your napkin ring.
m
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ok, that curious green overlay seen on this napkin ring in the Corning
https://www.cmog.org/artwork/napkin-ring-1?search=collection%3A87539dc36dc911ff4a96333d4224329a&page=9
... it appears on a pear-shaped flacon,green over white over clear in the Clichy book.
Page 273 c.1850.
here -scroll down to page 273 - the printed version in the actual book has a much clearer colour that the online version, is a much brighter green and is I would say comparable to the one in the Corning:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KEYMY4_ytuUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=cristallerie+de+clichy&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwja3N7q2d_rAhWF2uAKHcA2DvwQ6AEwAHoECAYQAg#v=onepage&q=cristallerie%20de%20clichy&f=false
So it's possible those two napkin rings in the Corning are Clichy.
So a possibility yours is French - although I thought Saint-Louis, Clichy used those 'horizontal bands' on a footed goblet shown on page 272
Also there are two blue overlay goblets in Baguires et verres a bois pages 168 and 120 which are quite old c.1845-1850 and the white showing under the blue overlay in the lenses is quite thickly cut - i.e. more of it shows, it's not a 'fine' white shadow line under the blue as it were. Definitely comparable in the way it's cut with the thickness of the lens white in your napkin ring.
~Do you have a uv blacklight? what colour does the clear glass glow if you put it under uv? Any colour or none?
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Thanks for your efforts in trying to track this one down. I don't have access to the piece unfortunately so i can't try a UV test. It is sounding like either French, or possibly a rare attempt at something fancy from the Butterworths factory in 1930s Manchester. I think I prefer the French explanation.
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You're welcome.
I'd also go with French.
Looking at the way it's cut in particular, I lean towards Clichy. That would make it older than 1930s.
I've never seen a red over white over clear Clichy piece but the red is very similar to a red Clichy set I have.
Having a blacklight uv torch on it would help, as it might be possible to see what colour the clear glass buzzes.
Please can you update if you do end up seeing it in person and manage to get a blacklight uv response from it? :)
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ooh - I've just thought of another possibility - Carl Schappel Borussia glas Haida
There is an example here of a vase - also that thick clear underlay:
https://veryimportantlot.com/en/lot/view/kugelvase-carl-schappelhaida-125187
another one here:
https://www.fler.cz/magazin/exkluzivni-vystava-secese-vitalni-umeni-1900-1370
I've not found anything in red over white though - but the 'feel' of the glass is similar with the thick inner clear glass.
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There is a collection here in the MAK
Nothing that looks like your red over white over clear though.
https://www.mak.at/jart/prj3/mak-resp/main.jart?rel=en&reserve-mode=active&content-id=1343388632778&article_id=1339957568445&media_id=1342703965998&menu-id=1343388632778
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It is not UV reactive
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aah no,I knew it wouldn't be but often when you use a blacklight on older pieces you can see a curious glow - sometimes yellowy, sometimes orangey etc. A sort of 'buzzy' pale ish colour eminating from the clear glass part. Sometimes nothing at all.
If it does show a colour 'buzz' it can help to indicate where it might have been made perhaps. I am just curious. So for example many of my older Bohemian pieces glow with a yellowy green colour on the clear glass. Not a uranium glow at all. Very different but definitely a colour. One of my old Saint Louis pieces glows with a salmon colour. It's different to my older Bohemian glass. Hard to explain but it definitely is there and is definitely different. Some of my newer pieces do not glow at all - no colour off the clear glass.
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Ajka Crystal also produce/d a red over white over clear. It's not the same red and I don't get a modern vibe from the napkin ring but adding it for comparison:
http://cutcrystalvase.com/ajka_hungary_ruby_red_double_cased_cut_to_clear_crystal_candle_holder_vase.htm
However Ajka also made this red overlay white overlay on clear vase - labelled and looks more similar in red colour:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/73458164_ruby-red-glass-ajka-crystal-centerpiece-bow-hungary
Label reads 'Design Guild Made in Hungary' and has two lions holding a flagpole in black on white paper label. There is also a bar code label on the vase.
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After some more evidence came in this white and ruby cased example is actually Butterworths after all - c1930 Manchester. We've found another one with a different pattern attributed to Butterworths which has the same casing.
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Hi Neil
Thanks for coming back on this. Is there evidence for the other one? You said attribution rather than identification so just wondering :)
Is it this company?
https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Butterworth_Brothers
m
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Yeah that's the Butterworth Brothers we are talking about. They specialised in scientific and industrial glass but as the other Manchester companies shut down, they bought up Burtles Tate and their workforce and did some simple fancy glass. The napkin rings come in 5 varieties that we know of; plain, red cased, blue cased, red cased with white inside cased, blue cased with white inside cased. We've identified 4 patterns to date - that circular one and three other general foliage. That may be the extent of their range.
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Just in response and an update to my reply #2 and #3 re the chartreuse green colour seen in the Corning napkin ring (query over whether Clichy green or Saint-Louis as it can be seen in the Clichy book). A French auction house have this perfume bottle in the chartreuse green cased over white as from Saint-Louis:
https://www.boisgirard-antonini.com/lot/96222/10062853?offset=200&
(Just in case someone comes across this in future searches)
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Neil I'm curious about the napkin ring with foliage design.
Is it a cased napkin ring with a cut to clear leaves design on it?
Just wondering if there is a chance of seeing the pattern at all please?
Thanks
m
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I guess you'd call this foliage, they are small, little room for design
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Interesting! And lovely to see it. Thanks for sharing.
m
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I have no idea why these didn't come up on previous searches but they are being sold as Saint-Louis.
You can see how fine the white underlay shadow is around the cut circles.
https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/dining-entertaining/glass/set-of-six-19th-century-french-st-louis-red-white-overlay-glass-napkin-rings/id-f_22062162/?¤cy=gbp&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIj6HIqoPU7gIVi57tCh1xVgTCEAkYBCABEgKQxfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
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Interesting, of course these are unregistered so there is no guarantee only one manufacturer made these, there are other napkin rings in this ballpark of patterns which are of a different size and probably by someone else.
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This is true.
But two things make me curious:
- something I read (I think on here on the GMB?) , I remember someone commenting that cutting these lenses was not an easy thing to do. It would have required a skilled cutter.
- Secondly with regard to the multi layered glass (4 layers? clear interior, layered with white glass, layered with clear glass, layered with red glass? or 3 layer being no clear glass between the red and the white?) would require glass pots with red glass and white glass and then someone skilled in casing red over white over clear wouldn't it?
Is this something that many glass makers would automatically have to hand?
m
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Or rolled in coloured frit, reheat and repeat until thick enough.
John
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I hadn't considered that method John.
Do you think that is how this layered white and red might have been achieved?
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,69919.msg389452.html#msg389452
I honestly don't know anything near enough about glassmaking to know whether that would enable a smooth enough result (having only ever blown a paperweight rolled in frit and a clear glass bowl and struggled to control both long enough to stop them turning into a badly formed mess ;D )
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Not sure how you could tell, maybe need a glass makers input for some subtle detail. I reckon rolling in fit would give a consistent result more easily, might be simpler in the long run. It does allow a glassmaker to work with any colour desired without having a multitude of pots on the go.
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wasn't casing done with the cupping method? Need to go and look that up again.
If rolling in frit was an easier method I think they might have thought of that for example in Bohemian cased glass in the 1830s onwards though?
I can't think cased glass was made like that. This kind of multi layered cased glass made as blanks to be cut through I mean.
Casing glass in this multilayered way isn't that easy as far as I understand. Blanks shatter, the layers of glass need to anneal at a similar rate etc. I didn't think it was something you could 'just decide to do' .
Therefore I associate Harrach then Baccarat, Saint Louis, Josephinenhutte and Clichy with this kind of multilayered glass (from 2nd third 19th century onwards).
Then I think of English cameo glass 1870s to end of 1800s.
And then Carl Schappel early 1900s and Ajka more recently.
Or perhaps the makers I associate with it are just because it was fashionable at those times, nothing to do with difficulty of process. Could be.
There are some examples in Charles Hajdamach British Glass 1800-1914 (pages 86 and 87) e.g. of a multi layered decanter from Bacchus c. 1850s (White over red over clear)
Then from Pages 203 onwards there is a large chapter on cameo glass (on cursory glass at examples seems to be white cased over colour)
From reading, it does not appear to have been an easy process.
It's just not something I think was made 'at the drop of a hat'. It seems it was quite difficult to do.
Andy McConnell has identified this decanter as from Osler:
https://scottishantiques.com/F-C-Osler-glass-Birmingham
Interestingly Neuwelt were supplying Osler with glass vases and cased glass from the 1860s:
Source: From Neuwelt to the Whole World, Edited by Jan Mergl - see page 163 and note 251 on page 162
- 'Contacts with the F. & C. Osler Company were not limited to the production of table chandeliers - or even of glass bowls for gas lamps, and ... company. F. & C. Osler's luxurious company gallery and shop, which opened in 1860 on Oxford Street in London, featured other interior design accessories produced in Neuwelt, including decorative glass. (see note 251) The ability of the glassworks to produce coloured overlay glass of the highest quality, and the exceptional skill of its craftmen in cutting this glass, was used by the two companies to their mutual advantage, resulting at the end ...'
Note 251 says 'Owen Jones ... . The painting rendered in intricate detail, clearly depicts, alongside other objects, table chandeliers and vases which can be attributed with some certainty to the production from Neuwelt'.
I've been reading about this recently because I've seen a few pieces identified as Osler that I just could not believe could be from them. Hence finding this information in the Neuwelt book (I do read the book in fits and starts but use it as a reference book, rather than reading it from start to finish which I now think would be a good idea for me to do!)
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I wanted to amend my previous post but too late.
Amendments are:
1) 'Casing glass in this multilayered way isn't that easy as far as I understand.'
should read:
'Casing glass in this multilayered (colour over white over colour or clear) way isn't that easy as far as I understand.'
2) 'Andy McConnell has identified this decanter as from Osler:'
should read:
Andy McConnell has identified this decanter (white outer layer over yellow) as from Osler:
3) Owen Jones Painting of Osler's shop Oxford Street here:
https://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/survey-of-london/2015/12/11/oslers-shop-oxford-street/
According to the V&A that painting is dated 1859. So it could be that Harrach were supplying Osler in the late 1850s.
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So for example, there is this large candelabra from Osler (c. 1870s)
Source: Corning Museum article
https://www.cmog.org/sites/default/files/images/fig_10_table_lamp.jpg?itok=O0AKpa5N
Example of design for cased chandelier c.1860s from Osler pattern books here:
https://www.cmog.org/sites/default/files/images/fig_04_design_candelabrum.jpg?itok=YomKp1nz
Article on Osler in Corning Museum here:
https://www.cmog.org/article/f-c-osler
Information on glass supplied to Osler in Harrach book From Neuwelt to the Whole World, Edited by Jan Mergl on page 162-163
The Owen Jones coloured picture is in the V&A. You can click on it here and download it enlarged for personal use. The details can be seen of the individual vases etc.
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O237956/oslers-gallery-oxford-street-london-watercolour-jones-owen/
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Neil, I just thought if you've not already seen this you might find it interesting:
Source: A Pictorial Record of the Royal Jubilee Exhibition Manchester 1887 , pp 54
talks about Percival Vickers displaying 'ruby-coloured Glass which when cut revealed a white ground underneath'.
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Pictorial_Record_of_the_Royal_Jubile/Hh4UAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=stevens+and+williams+brierley+hill+1887&pg=PA54&printsec=frontcover
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Neil, just a question - are these made of lead glass?
I've just come across a piece of writing from H. J. Powell in the Scientific American Vol XI Jan-Jun1881 page 4699. It's a long article but this information/quote is found in the middle column of that page:
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Scientific_American/EhI8AQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=uranium+in+glass+H+J+powell&pg=PA4699&printsec=frontcover
Where H.J. Powell says in the article
quote
'Bohemian glass, in addition to the silicates of sodium, potassium and calcium, contains traces of the silicates of magnesium, and aluminium. It is fusible easily manipulated, and develops, with the sub-oxide of copper, a ruby colour, which cannot be attained with a glass containing silicate of lead.'
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I don't have access to the white and red one but the ruby ones are lead glass, density around 2.9g/cc
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Thanks. It's an interesting comment in Scientific American and it's exercising my brain. I wish I was a chemist and understood this more.
Does it mean that if red glass is lead glass that the red is gold ruby glass rather than copper ruby?
Or could it mean that if it's red lead glass it could have been made with selenium? see here:
Source- Journal of the American Ceramic Society, Production of Selenium Red Glass, F. A.Kirkpatrick and George G. Roberts, First published Nov 1919:
https://ceramics.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1151-2916.1919.tb18751.x#:~:text=The%20production%20of%20red%20glass,selenium%20glass%20of%20satisfactory%20quality.
Or is it possible that the red colour was bought in in blocks/sticks/cakes readymade for melting and used for casing? i.e. not made in house.
If they were copper ruby blocks then I have a question - is it possible to case lead glass with non-lead copper ruby blocks (me assuming they are non lead blocks/sticks because of the article quoted)
Otherwise are the blocks/sticks gold-ruby glass bought in ready-made to case these lead glass napkin rings?
Or is it possible the maker was making their own gold-ruby glass to case the napkin rings?
From what I read the process of making both gold-ruby and copper ruby glass is difficult.