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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: madweasel on July 01, 2021, 10:36:12 PM
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Hello everyone
I am part of the archaeological team (Pre-Construct Archaeology Ltd) that in 2019 exposed the remains of Angus & Greener's glass works on Trimdon Street. Attached is a contemporary view and a plan of what we found. The excavation revealed some interesting details about this short-lived glass works.
A while ago I got permission from admin to share information about the site and also to ask the group for some help to identify fragments of glass found in the course of this excavation.
Over the coming four days I will be posting a number of images of the fragments here and I do hope that you will be able to help me identify the patterns. Some are. for me, recognisable patents but some I cannot identify. There are also some fragments which I doubt are Angus and Greener (A&G) but might relate to French/Walton (before A&G's tenure) or Neville (after Greener).
For a start I would like to confirm the earliest ownership of this glass woks. First of all, Nicholas French, whose name is associated with Trimdon Street, who appears to have established the works.
In 1851, in the local press in June and July, it was reported that he was to take over a Sunderland flint glass manufactory 'that had been lying dormant for some time'. No mention of Trimdon Street. Does anyone know which site this might be?
In 1853, however, the Durham Chronicle for Friday 8 April reported that he was about to set up a new, extensive and elegant flint glass manufactory at the 'foot of Trimdon Street'. In August of the same year, French's name is mentioned in association with the auction, the address being 'Ballast Hill Glass Works'. Could this be the 1851 glass works?
Also, in 1857, Thomas Walton is reported as being the manager of this works, called the Sunderland Flint Glass Works. Is the relationship between French and Walton known?
I will leave those questions if that is OK to encourage interest and to start a discussion about this most interesting site. Tomorrow I will post about where the glass was found on the site. There are four main groups, the first one coming from beneath the working floor of the works, and so earlier than the final state of the glass works. Whether this is French or A&G, I do not know. Do we know what French's products from Trimdon Street looked like? Hopefully, with your help, we may be able to answer some questions.
all the very best
John Shepherd
Pre-Construct Archeology
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Hi John, thank you for your most interesting post about the excavation work you are doing.
Could I ask that as you post your updates that you do them as replies to this topic (rather than a new topic for each one) so as to keep all the information together to make it easy to see and read through. Many thanks, and I look forward to hearing about your finds.
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Hi John,
Manchester glass collectors have been through this process to some extent with the spoils from the dig at the Percival Vickers works in Manchester nearly 20 years ago, I presume you have read the report of that excavation, it is on the net in short and long form if you search around. In the case of Percival Vickers, some pieces were obvious matches for registered items. Other bits were unknown or too small to identify.
We learnt three main things from the report:
- colour ranges
- glassware produced in areas not suggested by the surviving registrations/pattern books. For example there was a fragment from the late 19th century generic cranberry creamers which infest eBay every week, which were not shown in catalogues
- density ranges for the glassware
If you look in Barrie Skelcher's book on Vaseline glass - the later one - you will see a density profile for Angus & Greener over time, 46 pieces tested. My thoughts, having tested a few pieces from this glassworks myself, are in agreement with that book. Pieces have a degree of lead content up to around mid 1860s - specific gravity 2.6g/cc to 2.8g/cc - after which there is little or no lead in the glass, and values are in the range 2.4g/cc - 2.55g/cc in later eras. These figures are only for plain or frosted tableware. Each glasshouse tended to do its own thing with lead mixture and with several owners on the site it may be a bit complex. But if you have the equipment to analyse the composition of the glass, you should be able to split it pre and post mid 1860s I would have thought, on the lead content. You can read through the Percival Vickers report to see what figures they got from their glass fragments.
I'm sure we're all looking forward to seeing the fragments...
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Hi Neilh
Thanks for this reply. Yes, the Percival Vickers site is an important comparison. I have 50 samples with Oxford Lab from the A&G site at the moment and we are doing ICPS on them to compare directly with the P&V results. I am working with Chloe Duckworth in Newcastle on those, so watch this space!!! The close dating of the A&G glass works is important in this regard, as it gives a very tight window for the use of whatever compositions they did use. It will be very good addendum to the P&V work in Manchester.
I continue to call this site the A&G works, but I am sure that you are aware that one of the primary research questions is to see if we can identify any French/Walton or Neville products.
The samples selected are a range of registered vessels as well as unknown registered types in a variety of glass metals, colourless and coloured, including uranium.
I will post some fo the vessel fragments shortly, with a description of their context, and hope for some good feedback.
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So the first group of glass I would like to present are some coloured fragments found at the north end of the site (our site code is TSS19). This is layer [205] which was the make-up for a brick floor [204].
We think that the brick floor is the mixing room noted on an OS plan of 1859 (image attached). Layer [205] beneath this floor is important, therefore, as it obviously pre-dates the laying fo the brick floor - it is part of its construction. But how many years before 1859? Considering that A&G are recorded as acquiring the glass works in 1858-9 (their first joint patent was 1859, I believe), then this glass may either originate from the earliest of A&G's regimes or perhaps from French/Watson from 1853 to 1858/9.
Of course, we must be careful about using the 1859 OS date - as the survey could have been done a few years before, in which case we would be firmly into French or French/Watson tenure.
PS - I keep referring to 'French/Watson', rather than just 'Watson' as the latter is described as 'manager', not owner. Was he an owner though?
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These are the first four fragments. The number in <> brackets is our on-site accession number, unique to that fragment. If you could refer to that number if you have any observations, comments or parallels I would be most grateful.
Their context means that these need not be products whatsoever of the glass works, but could include domestic debris. Your help with identifications might help here - a couple of these look like imports to me.
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42 - this looks like part of a lacy plate. These were some of the earliest pressed glass items produced in this country, the first ones dating to c1835, new designs in the general style were added up to around 1860. It is my belief that any pressed glass works that opened prior to 1860 would want a few of these in their catalogue. Percival Vickers, opened in 1844, had three lacy plate designs still on offer in their 1881 catalogue. Molineaux Webb had many more than that in their 1870 catalogue. Some of these plates may have been in production for decades, 50 years or more, which makes them tricky to assign to a phase of the works except by composition. As far as I am aware, pressed glass started in the northeast circa 1847, so we could say the mould dates to 1847-60 approx, with the actual example any time until perhaps c1880s. The colour is very unusual, as are the circles near the edge. I do not recognise it. You haven't extrapolated the size - I'm guessing 5 inches diameter maybe?
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Diameter 4 1/4, I'd say, to the edge of the lip. The lettering on the base ring, not visible in the image, is ]TTOM. Oblique attached to the next post.
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Oblique view of <42> showing lettering on base ring.
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More fragments from [205]. The scent bottle was the only intact vessel. Again, this context may contain ordinary domestic waste as well as material associated with the early years of the glass works, so this does not have to be a product.
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Colourless fragments from [205.
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Hi all,
It's great John that you are now able to post some results of your dig. I think it was you who asked me about Waltons.
(Maybe an autocorrect changed "French/Walton" to "French/Watson"?)
I am away from home at the moment so can't look out my paper files on the Waltons, to engage with the topic, but will pick it up when I get home.
If any of the Sunderland glass is from the time Waltons had it, it would be the first glass I have heard of that's been found. There's bound to be some under the garage in Newton-le-Willows (Lancashire) which stands on top of their long-standing site there but who knows when that would ever be excavated. Waltons made glass on that site (N-le-W) from early 1870s to about 1900 - exclusively, apart from a brief period of a year or so before they started. (From memory, until I can open my files again.)
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Hi Sally
Yes, the support from the client came through and so we are taking the project to publication.
Ah yes - Watson for Walton. Thank you for spotting that. Just a question - and sorry if I have asked this before. He was called 'manager'. Do we know what that status was?
As for identifying any Walton products, then this layer [205] would be key. If there is anything then it might be among the fragments I am presenting today and tomorrow.
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Hi John, Until I get home, in a few days yet, I won't be able to reply about 'manager'. Will do then, though. Sally
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Thank you Sally.
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More colourless fragments from [205].
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Interior and exterior of <33> and two others from [205].
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Uranium from [205]
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31 - this is from one of three possible registrations in 1867 which are all very similar, so you have a firm date there.
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Do you mean 209161, 214357 and 214358?
I suspect 33 could be 209161. Would you agree?
If this is so then the brick floor [204] must post-date 1867.
J
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Yes, by chance I have a comport here which is either 214357 or 8, the lozenge is too indistinct to work out which one it is. Mine has a density of 2.57g/cc - my method is a bit rough so that's accurate to 2% with downside more likely based on other values I have. You could be right on 33 - they used studs on a few of their late 1860s registrations, by that token 52 and 58 are probably from the same period, someone who knows more about this firm than me might give a more detailed id.
I remain intrigued by fragment 42 with its strange inscription. I am wondering with the green colour if it will turn out to be made of bottle glass. Some years ago a collector showed me a large and ugly comport in bottle glass which he said was early Edward Moore (1860s). It was perhaps the most basic piece of pressed glass I have ever seen. I should have bought it as I've never seen anything like it before or since, but I wonder if you will uncover any evidence of bottle glass being used in early pressed production in the region.
Here are all my density values for Greener - bear in mind any piece could have been made decades after the registration, and even by a different firm if the moulds were transferred:
1858 - registered bowl - 2.64g/cc <-- indicates some lead
1866 - registered decanter - 2.56g/cc
1867 - comport - 2.57g/cc
1869 - registered Peabody plate - 2.51g/cc
1874 - registered bowl - 2.5g/cc
1893 - registered wheelbarrow - 2.47g/cc
1898 - registered vase - 2.48g/cc
Bearing in mind the slight roughness in method, it basically means some lead prior to mid 1860s, then little or none.
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Interesting stats. As to the compositions, as I said before, we are awaiting the results. I put in a selection of colours and forms so we will get a good range - and some from this early layer [205].
Tomorrow I will post fragments that are more recognisable as A&G or just Greener that came from the demolition phase of the glass works - in the mid-1870s, according to the documentary history. I will explain this tomorrow.
This is significant because you note that moulds would have a long life, but do you know about the process of patenting the designs etc in the first place? Was it illegal for vessels to be sold at that time without a patent mark?
As for the manufacturing waste found on the site - there is no evidence at all of anything matching the colour of 42.
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Re: my last. Of course it was not illegal.
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As for the history of the glass works, recent research suggests that this is the sequence for this short-lived site.
1853 - French establishes a glass works in Trimdon Street, the Sunderland Flint Glass Works..
1857 - Walton recorded as 'manager' of the Sunderland Flint Glass Works.
1858-9 - Angus and Greener partnership formed, trading as the Wear Flint Glass Works.
1859 - first A&G patent (117501)
1859-69 - numerous records of employment disputes, theft, fire, violence among workers.
1869 - Death of Angus. Greener trades alone.
1871 - Greener leaves Trimdon Street and sets up the Wear Flint Glass Works in Millfield. This is the famous works that was to become Jobling and co in 1921.
1873 - Samuel Neville, former partner of Sowerby, takes over the Trimdon Street works.
1874 - Neville stops trading.
1877 - A court order for the executors of Angus's will orders them to sell 'the Sunderland property'.
1897 - OS maps show terrace housing on the site. These were built following the demolition of the glass works, possibly as workers' housing for employees of local factories.
The following glass is from a different part of the site. Layer [143] was a dump of glass and building debris found int he entrance to what the 1859 OS plan labels as the 'office'.
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more
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82 is definitely RD 221689 from 1868
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92 is the foot from RD 221689 too I think.
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is your no 34
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=70845.0;attach=242480;image
from something like this?
It says it's RD no 81160
http://english-pressed-glass.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/greener-81160-2.jpg
http://english-pressed-glass.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/greener-81160.jpg
reg 15th Sept 1887
http://english-pressed-glass.com/?page_id=103
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That certainly has the hexagonal elements. The date of the patent, though, puts it with Greener's later glass works that was at Millfield, a decade after the Trimdon Street works had closed.
My 34 is very flat and I wonder if it could come from 117501. Its date (1858) fits with the Trimdon Street regime date, which A&G acquired in 1858-9. I think that patent must be for the profile decoration of the dish as other base designs are reported for that patent.
https://www.yobunny.org.uk/glassgallery/displayimage.php?pos=-25589
It shows how Greener retained some decorative elements 30 years or so later.
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The dish shown here has the reg lozenge on it, so evidence that pattern appeared on that reg number as you say:
https://www.yobunny.org.uk/glassgallery/displayimage.php?pos=-25589
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I have merged both the Angus and Greener topics by madweasel, so as to keep all this interesting information together.
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Hi all,
It's great John that you are now able to post some results of your dig. I think it was you who asked me about Waltons.
(Maybe an autocorrect changed "French/Walton" to "French/Watson"?)
I am away from home at the moment so can't look out my paper files on the Waltons, to engage with the topic, but will pick it up when I get home.
If any of the Sunderland glass is from the time Waltons had it, it would be the first glass I have heard of that's been found. There's bound to be some under the garage in Newton-le-Willows (Lancashire) which stands on top of their long-standing site there but who knows when that would ever be excavated. Waltons made glass on that site (N-le-W) from early 1870s to about 1900 - exclusively, apart from a brief period of a year or so before they started. (From memory, until I can open my files again.)
Hi Sally. I wonder if you are close to your Walton records? I am still confused as to his status with regards the flint works in Trimdon Street in 57/58. I see that he was facing money difficulties in the middle of the 1850s (various Durham Chronicle articles 1855-6), declaring himself bankrupt which probably led to the sale of the Haverton Hill works to pay his creditors (although I reckon he was fleeced by his accountant). But then his trail goes cold. Yes, he is reported in a trade directory as being a 'manager' of the Trimdon Street works but that might not confirm him as proprietor. Do you have confirmation of the latter?
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Hi John
I am really sorry I didn't reply earlier. Life happens sometimes.
I have pulled out my files but I can't find anything better than what you already have. But I haven't done any research on this glassworks since about 2007. The census of 1861 RG. 9/3781 says Thomas Walton (age 60) is a Glass manufacturer. His son Thomas (28) is living with him, described as a glass maker. It was the latter who went to Japan.
I hope you have made progress with your work.
I'm at a stage with mine where I've given up primary research in favour of reviewing my 15 years of it, turning it around and repurposing it for a blog site. It would be interesting for me if/when you have any summaries of this topic that I could refer to in a post about the Waltons in the NE. :) The Japanese may be interested.
With best wishes,
Sally
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Thank you for looking Sally. Much appreciated. I acknowledge the detail about which Walton went to Japan.
I will be in touch. My work is nearly complete. I have not found anything more about Walton, but it seems that French's fortunes went into a bit of a decline after he left Trimdon Street. The 61 census has him living nearby and described as a 'glass cutter'. Much later, when he has stopped working, a census records him as a 'retired flint glass maker'. You can see what he was proud of.
all the very best
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I'm not sure this will be of any help for you. I have been looking into the Haverton Hill glass works recently, because I came across a reference to Sowerby & Co. operating the site and have been trying to construct a timeline of the occupiers/owners. I believe Thomas Walton owned the Haverton Hill glass works from 1850-1855, and was running it with his brother Richard. The 1851 census lists TW as living in Haverton Hill and being a glass manufacturer. His brother Richard lived next door and was described as being in partnership with his brother. When TW declared bankruptcy and moved up to Sunderland, his brother Richard appears to have moved to Lancashire.
Whilst the 1861 census lists TW as a glass manufacturer, his address is given as High Southwick (which is on the opposite side of the river to Mill Field) although contemporary maps show a ferry between Low Southwick and Deptford. I'm only aware of crown and bottle works in Southwick at this time, so it seems plausible that he could be working at the Harrison Street works, which were situated in Deptford, near the Ballast Hills Mill. My understanding was that Angus & Greener operated from there until Angus died in 1869, at which point Greener moved to the glass works near Trimdon Street.
bws,
Lindsey
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Thanks for this Lindsey.
I have TW as manager of the Sunderland Flint Glass Works in Trimdon Street in an 1857 Directory reference (confirmed pers. comm. from Sally). Angus and Greener then take over in 1859 and Greener moved in 1872 to Millfield, the Wear Flint Glass Co. for which he is more famous. This is the place that was then to be owned by Jobling and, later, Corning.
It is just possible, although I can not confirm it, that TW was retained by A&G into the 1860s. As for Harrison Street, I have no idea what this glasshouse was. There is no such factory in that street whatsoever. I have a feeling that it is a false red herring buried in a thesis or two, related to Nicholas French who supposedly set up the Trimdon Street factory in 1853. Prior to that one modern scholar states, and others repeat, that he owned a glass house in Harrison Street, but I believe that was his home address and he actually owned the Ballast Hill works. It might be there that TW and French came into contact and French took TW as manager to Trimdon Street (note, the original modern scholar, in connection with French, also confuses Harrison Street with Trimdon Street).
Any thoughts?
John
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I've been reading old newspaper articles trying to get more info, on some of the claims made in a thesis or two, in relation to a glass works on Harrison Street.
Regarding Nicholas French; The Newcastle Journal, 21st June 1851, p5, reports that Nicholas French reopened a flint glass manufactory in Sunderland, which had been dormant for some time, during the past week. During August 1853 there is a public house offered for sale, particulars available from Nicholas French at the Ballast Hills Glass Works (Durham Chronicle, 12th August 1853, p4, for example). This is the time the new glass works at the foot of Trimdon Street is being constructed (Durham Chronicle, 8th April 1853, p.8 - states Nicholas French is erecting the new glass works). N.B. I haven't tracked down an address for the 1851 glassworks, yet (she says hopefully).
An 1855 map of Sunderland shows the Ballast Hills Mill at the bottom of Harrison Street (bear with me here).
In the Sunderland Daily Echo (Thursday 23rd November 1876, p.2) approval is recommended of the conversion of the old mill on Harrison Street to a glass manufactory, applicant being Joseph Thomas. This glassworks goes on auction 13th May 1878 (e.g. Sunderland Daily Echo, Tues. 30th April 1878, p.2), particulars to be had from Joseph Thomas, 77 Old Trimdon Street. (On the 1855 map the streets are labelled Trimdon Street (where the glassworks are) and New Trimdon Street).
The address of Joseph Thomas' glass works are given as the Nil Desperandum Green & Flint Glass Works, Harrison Street, Ballast Hills, Bishopwearmouth.
In the 1855 map of Sunderland that I've been using for reference (6" Ordnance Survey), Harrison Street looks like small terraced housing, certainly the contemporary advertisements for rental properties fuel that assumption. So the only building likely to have been a glass house is the Ballast Hill Mill, which is where my hypothesis that this may have been French's original (1851 in the newspaper/1852 in the thesis) Harrison Street works comes in to play. Obviously, it's just a theory that I'm still looking into.
best wishes,
Lindsey
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Hi Lindsey
Our notes kind of match, I have those newspaper references, but a little bit more detail about French. In 1851 a directory records him as 'Proprietor' (note, not manager) of the Ballast Hill Glass Works. So yes. French and Ballast Hill match nicely.
The tavern in question had been his father's but, on his father's death, I think his brother ran it. Obviously, in 1853, they decide to sell up.
What you have there about Harrison Street is interesting but it is outside my time frame. The Trimdon Street glass works had a very narrow timespan before it closed. nGreener left in 1972. I suspect that he was ripping off Angus's widow, who took the executors of her husband's will to court. They were trying to give Greener an extremely preferential deal with regards to continuing at Trimdon Street. The court orders that the executors be changed and Greener moves to Millfield. Samuel Neville, formerly in partnership with Sowerby, then takes over in May 1873, but the presence of Reed's Iron works next door, and their massive steam hammers, caused structural problems to the glass works (Sunderland Daily Echo and Shipping Gazette – Tuesday 22 December 1874). Neville leaves in January 1874 and things then go quiet. I suspect, according to legal problems Angus's widow was having, that it was not until the mid 1870s that she and her children were able to realise their interests in the Trimdon Street property. It is then demolished and housing erected over its site.
All very interesting stuff. As it is outside my timeframe I never found that Harrison Street reference in 1878. That there was indeed a new glass house in Harrison Street from 1878 then yes, that might be where Ross, the modern scholar - who also mentions the Nil Depsernadum glass works (but confuses it with Angus and Greener's property) got her lines confused.
John