Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Ekimp on July 05, 2021, 12:07:19 PM
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I bought this as I wanted an example of antique acid frosting (and it was very cheap ;) ). I was sure it was going to be acid frosting when looking at it in the shop, but on getting it home and looking through modest magnification, it was apparent that it is another example of mechanical frosting. This has probably been achieved using an abrasive wheel (or possibly a pad) held against the surface while the body was rotated in a lathe of sorts. You can see the striations in the finish from the rotation of the body against an abrasive and also areas where the wheel hasn’t got into the corner at the base - so not sandblasting or acid etching.
I think this method of abrading the surface to create a frosted effect is actually very common (it is in the glass I come across) and maybe on victorian glass it is the norm, rather than the exception.
There is no stopper but there is an etched ‘2’ in the neck. I believe it dates to somewhere in the Victorian period, there is similar Greek key and frosted decoration here: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,62608.msg351508.html#msg351508 with discussion on dating of Greek key cutting, Paul S. says Greek key suggests 1860s - 1880s.
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...two more photos:
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nice! Love the honeycomb cutting on the neck. It's my favourite type of cut.
m
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Thanks, I quite like it - if only it had the original stopper!
The frosting makes it look slightly opalescent (if that’s the right term) with the light behind it. I have a goblet with a crackle bowl (similar to one you posted several years ago) but with a frosted stem and foot. The opalescent look is more obvious on that, I wonder if that was partly why they did this frosting. I should imagine with acid frosting, the texture might be more flat and not defuse the light in the same way.
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did he really - he must have been looking at books again - I suspect the Greeks did it too. ;) There's a lot of glare in the photo, around the neck area, so not easy to see detail - might it possibly be scale cutting do you think?
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Yes, luckily someone else had done the work ;D I think it is scale cutting, hexagonal shaped cuts so honeycomb describes it nicely too...although at the top around the back they ran out of space and they became diamonds. Presumably that lack of symmetry indicates they were cut by hand. Sorry about the photo, had my mind on frosting.
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I suspect m is correct if the neck cutting shows hexagonal shapes - just that I couldn't see too clearly. I have a grape washer (so said Pamela a long time back) and the shapes of the grapes and leaves are a matt finish as though by acid, but under the lens these areas show directional lines, so I'd assumed the decoration made by a copper wheel. I've a large, possibly C19 water jug with extensive areas of matt surface, and under the lens there is an absence of any lines - the surface shows as more granulated than the piece here or my grape washer, so assume that is acid. I'd could show a picture but the surface detail simply won't show the texture as too great a magnification needed. Sorry your one has turned out not to be what you wanted - give it away and carry on looking for the real thing - I don't know how the effect on yours has been achieved - could be wrong, but I don't see the bottle spinning on a lather while the guy held some abrasive pad up close, but who knows - spinning bottles on lathes was a method of adjusting the fit of a stopper 150 years back, but could be risky.
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I wonder if this surface effect is done by brushing acid onto the surface somehow?
I've no idea if historical accounts show that was how acid was used though :-X
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Thanks both, I’ve had a go at convincing people of this abrasive technique of frosting before, (without too much success I think ??? ). https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,68884.20.html Brushing acid was suggested there (but the brushes would melt).
I can’t see sand blasting or acid etching producing the marks shown on this decanter (or my vases in the other thread above). The area in the corner that I showed on the decanter has been missed, I can’t see that happening if brushing acid, dipping in acid or exposure to acid fumes. I will probably post the goblet I mentioned, I think that has even more clear indications of mechanical frosting.
I wasn’t necessarily thinking of something spinning the glass very fast, it could be spun slowly against a spinning grinding type wheel on a lathe similar to those used to spin the work piece for machine needle acid etching etc (ref Hajdamach page 183, Plate 162)
McConnell 2nd eddition page 80 describes grinding stoppers with various grades of emery using a purpose made lathe as early as 1665, so over 350 years! A similar technique might work to frost the body of my decanter. Also, on page 284 McConnell quotes John Northwood’s son on how unpleasant it was working with acids “....it was an unpleasant job and no one wanted it. If possible, some used to pay others to do this part for them”. So not much fun using acids either!
Hajdamach on Northwood’s work on pages 184/185 says: “The effects produced by Northwood’s [acid etching] machines consisted only of outlines. If the areas inside the figures were to be shaded the glass was passed to the engraving shop. Broad copper wheels were used to matt [or frost] the surface...” [my square brackets]. He used this mechanical frosting over large areas as illustrated by a jug in Plate 166. He goes on to say Northwood then develops an acid etch frosting treatment used in conjunction with resists, but the grinding method was used by them until c1862.
Also, in Hajdamach page 49, Plate 35 shows a ‘Frosted and Embossed’ vase from Webb Richardson c.1830s. Presumably this would have been frosted with a grinding wheel as it predates Northwood’s development of white acid (for frosting) and sandblasting by a considerable margin.
Keith’s jug here: https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,70337.msg391649.html might be similar to the jug you mention Paul, as it also looks to have a relatively uniform texture. Sand blasting was another possibility when there were no grinding marks but that wasn’t invented until 1870 and I’m not convinced. ;D
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Thank you for taking the time to research the methods and then share them. Very informative. Food for thought on my blue opaline vase - need to take a look at it to see if has lines on.
m
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You’re welcome :) It’ll be interesting to see what you think on your vase. I’m convinced it was a viable technique used on many cylindrical type objects (vases etc) that are symmetrical about the axis, without handles etc in the way.
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This technique of grinding well documented concerning lamp shades from 1820s 1870s in U.S.A. Occasionally on lamp fonts as well. The term used in early advertisements are "rough" or "roughened". This technique not often seen on tableware in my experience. A similar use of grinding was used as a low cost substitute for engraving usually seen on pressed glass dating c.1860s.
Pictured is a cut glass compote probably 1860s with ground decoration usually seen on pressed glass of the same period.
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Not sure to what extent this 'grinding' - to produce basic and crude decoration - was used in the U.K. in the C19 - it is used as we know as a preparation in the process of cutting, but I'm struggling to see it as a method used to produce a frosted surface as shown on this decanter - for obvious reasons grinding wheels generally are coarse in texture, and if the glass has to be further processed to smooth out those coarse marks then as a process, efficiency would be lost. Additionally, the need to maintain a perfectly smoothly curved surface - avoiding flats - would be at risk if held up to a grinding wheel. Prodigious amounts of drinking related wares - in the C19 in the U.K. - were decorated using a copper engraving wheel, and I'd suggest most of the 'fern' (pteridomania) cutting, seen on drinking glasses etc. were so decorated - the final appearance is similar to that shown by Cagney, but the result is much finer. This multiple repeat 'slightly curved and arching' shape was a staple decorative motif used by the wheel engravers, presumably replicating some sort of floral motif. Should we dismiss the possibility of the frosting on this piece having been the result of machine acid etching, especially if the area to be treated - as with this example - is geometrically easy to produce, and not some very detailed intricate image? Might needle work, etched through the resist, produce very fine directional marks? Acid appears to have been used commonly in the C19, with health hazards ignored, and the benefit of producing very fine results in the way of smoothness etc. would not have been an opportunity they might have ignored. How was the Greek Key produced here - engraved or acid etched?
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Thanks for the replies. That’s interesting about the American “roughened” lamps, presumably they are roughened over a large area like the decanter and not just in detail like on the compote? When you mention the technique of grinding as a low cost substitute for engraving used on the compote, I thought of the similar crude decoration of cloud shapes or oak leaves on some 19th century decanters and glasses such as these: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,54497.0.html
...but I'm struggling to see it as a method used to produce a frosted surface as shown on this decanter - for obvious reasons grinding wheels generally are coarse in texture, and if the glass has to be further processed to smooth out those coarse marks then as a process, efficiency would be lost. Additionally, the need to maintain a perfectly smoothly curved surface - avoiding flats - would be at risk if held up to a grinding wheel.
I don’t think you would use a coarse grit grinding wheel but use the finest grit that was coarse enough to produce the desired effect in one go. In McConnell page 80 where he talks about grinding stoppers and decanter necks in 1675, he talks of various grades of powdered emery being available that was mixed in oil - so the abrasive wasn’t part of the wheel but an applied paste. I understood that cutting with copper wheels was achieved by using various grade grinding pastes as the abrasive. If the blank was turned in a lathe as I suggest then there wouldn’t be any flats caused by holding the blank up to a grinding wheel.
I found in the Corning Museum of Glass dictionary a short description of ‘lathe cutting’ where a blank is turned in a lathe and a tool fed with abrasive is applied to the blank to ‘polish it, modify the profile, or cut it’: https://www.cmog.org/glass-dictionary/lathe-cutting
Might needle work, etched through the resist, produce very fine directional marks?
I think this was in connection with the grinding decoration on the compote? I think the marks produced by needle etching would be very obvious. Occasionally you see imitations of Northwood’s work where instead of frosting between the needle etched outline with a grinding wheel or white acid frosting (see reply eight), they have used more needle etching. This stands out like a sore thumb and looks very crude and I don’t think something you could mistake for mechanical grinding or proper acid frosting. I can’t find an example at the moment.
The Greek key on the decanter has been cut with a wheel.
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I bought this as I wanted an example of antique acid frosting (and it was very cheap ;) ). I was sure it was going to be acid frosting when looking at it in the shop, but on getting it home and looking through modest magnification, it was apparent that it is another example of mechanical frosting. This has probably been achieved using an abrasive wheel (or possibly a pad) held against the surface while the body was rotated in a lathe of sorts. You can see the striations in the finish from the rotation of the body against an abrasive and also areas where the wheel hasn’t got into the corner at the base - so not sandblasting or acid etching.
I think this method of abrading the surface to create a frosted effect is actually very common (it is in the glass I come across) and maybe on victorian glass it is the norm, rather than the exception.
There is no stopper but there is an etched ‘2’ in the neck. I believe it dates to somewhere in the Victorian period, there is similar Greek key and frosted decoration here: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,62608.msg351508.html#msg351508 with discussion on dating of Greek key cutting, Paul S. says Greek key suggests 1860s - 1880s.
FWIW I agree with you regarding the technique used - I think the piece was probably turned on a lathe whilst being rubbed with something abrasive.
The texture suggests mechanical abrasion rather than acid. The pattern of the texture suggests either the piece or the abrasive was being rotated.
I haven't found your vase, but there are a number of lamp shades that use a combination of frosted and greek key patterns:
https://www.replacements.com/crystal-ajka-greek-key-10-flower-vase/p/90820871
https://www.antiquelampsupply.com/argand-shade-hand-cut-greek-key-design.html
https://www.bplampsupply.com/product/4263_greek-key-design-gas-shade
None of them are that close, but they are all part frosted with greek key motifs.
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Hi, thanks for looking. Yes, I can’t see the marks being made any other way. I’m sure the decanter was spun on a lathe as the marks are parallel around the diameter and as Paul says, if it was just a rotating abrasive held against the decanter, then you would see a different pattern of marks. It’s hard to see how stuff was frosted unless you get a close look at the surface.
The Greek key certainly seems to be a popular motif over many years. :)
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agree, probably ever since Lord Elgin relieved them of their Marbles - it's plain enough not to appear too OTT yet has that classical connection - it appears prolifically on hand cut, acid etched and to some extent on pressed glass - mostly as a geometric border.
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One 19th century account of the process involved with grinding on glass for frosted effect. Although it concerns shades/ fonts, I see no reason it could not apply to your decanter as well.
From THE SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN VOL. VIII, no. 5 [ January 31, 1863 ]
" Globes for lamps are ground dull on the surface [to tone the light] by being placed on a lathe, and made to revolve while a pad containing sand and water is held against them'
Quoted and footnoted in OIL LAMPS II by Catherine M.V. Thuro.
She also mentions another source from the 1870s described a brush rather than a pad used with sand.
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Thanks for the information, I appreciate it :D This has been a pet subject of mine for a while and your references are proof of the method I have been banging on about. I really think this is the usual technique of frosting victorian glass (if it is a suitable shape to be turned).
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I got this good quality shallow bowl in the charity shop last week. It is another one that has mechanical frosting, similar to the decanter. I can’t decide if it was frosted and then cut or frosted after cutting.
You can see the abrasions go around the bowl from where it was spun against an abrasive. You can see areas in the corner of the foot that haven’t been reached by the abrasive tool. In one place at the edge, you can see where the frosting feathers out where it hasn’t quite reached the cut boarder.
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The last pic looks like acid etching to me but I see what you mean re the striations on the rest of it.
In my mind's eye, unless they discovered a difficulty with cutting and polishing post etching, then it would make sense as quicker, to etch the entire thing first then cut the pattern. Saves time and money on wages therefore.
m
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I've had this cut pattern before, though now can't remember whose it was. Attractive with this arch enclosing leaves type arrangement.
brain now working, I think, ..... possibly a Percival Vickers design from 6th March 1868 - comes in frosted and plain and Thompson describes it as "one of the early leaf patterns" ..... could be Rd. 217227. Of course, someone else may have simply copied the original design - Neil will know better than me.
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Thanks Flying free, it’s not the best picture as there is some distortion as it was a wide angle lens (clipped to a tablet) and it’s a bit out of focus but was difficult to show. I’m sure it’s not acid etching, my thinking with the last photo is that the scratches kind of feather out, whereas if it was acid etched presumably there would be a sharp cutoff where the acid met the resist or stopped. Also, can’t see how the area in the corner of the foot would be missed (photo 3) if using acid. The scratches going around the bowl look more obvious in the flesh.
Yes, and if they etched it first, maybe that made marking out the cutting easier too (unless it was done by machine).
Yes Paul, a nice little bowl, like a comport without the stem. I did think it’s a sort of similar design to the frosted vase from Webb Richardson on page 49 of Hajdamach. I’ll have a look for the Percival Vickers design, thanks. I had assumed it wouldn’t be distinctive enough to pin down.
Should of said, it’s only 135mm or 5.25 inches diameter.
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Here is 217227 - see what you think. Is it possible to have a comport without stem - or is it simply a small shallow bowl ;D
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I thought you might say it’s ‘compote’...You could break the stem off ;D
Thanks for the picture. It is similar but, who knows? Maybe just following a fashion. I only paid my 75p for the frosting ;D
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can we see a clear picture of the star cut base please? How many points does it have?
Nice bowl but the greek key doesn't match your decanter unfortunately :
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124557934669?hash=item1d003b404d:g:6ksAAOSwMxBgGuBN
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That’s a nice classy looking bowl, they don’t say how they arrived at Baccarat :), it also has a ground rim, mine is fire polished. Number of points of the star the same though - 32.
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The seller gives no reference for it being Baccarat :-X . Whoever made it though it's a nicely made and designed bowl. The rim is cut and bevelled and polished.
On a separate note, my Baccarat bowl has a 32 point star base and also a cut, bevelled and polished rim. The Saint-Louis bowl rim is fire-polished and has a 36 point star cut on the base of a raised foot.
I would think any matt effect would be done before the cutting .. if it was subsequently cut. It could be that the whole pattern was made with some kind of acid resist?
I think Cagney's description of the matt effect is interesting - from post
'One 19th century account of the process involved with grinding on glass for frosted effect. Although it concerns shades/ fonts, I see no reason it could not apply to your decanter as well.
From THE SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN VOL. VIII, no. 5 [ January 31, 1863 ]
" Globes for lamps are ground dull on the surface [to tone the light] by being placed on a lathe, and made to revolve while a pad containing sand and water is held against them'
Quoted and footnoted in OIL LAMPS II by Catherine M.V. Thuro.
She also mentions another source from the 1870s described a brush rather than a pad used with sand.'
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You are probably right regarding which process came first on my bowl (you can see wheel marks in the cutting). I’m sure this modernish Zajecar pressed glass bowl used a similar mechanical frosting technique as the final process:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Kristal-Zajecar-Bowl-made-in-YUGOSLAVIA-Crystal-Frosted-Dish-/174317179660
In the last three photos of the listing you can zoom in and see the scratches and where the abrasive has knocked off fleabite chips at the edges of the moulded ‘cutting’.
In my shallow bowl, I think they also used the abrasive to make the foot’s sides more cylindrical...as cmog said, the Lathe Cutting process was used to ‘polish it, modify the profile, or cut it’
Yes. Cagney’s comments were useful as they show it was a method used in production and not something I just made up ;D also in conjunction with the cmog dictionary entry for Lathe Cutting.
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sorry but can we see a clear photo of the foot of the decanter please?
I can see a star cut but it looks as though it has wider leaves at the NSEW compass points and then narrower ones in between?
Just curious :)
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and does this bowl have the same cut pattern as yours?:
https://www.kollerauktionen.ch/en/88151-0102------1144-schale-mit-bronzemontur-_aux-1144_82054.html?RecPos=1196
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Yes, of course, photo of decanter base added but I struggled to get it to show well. It is an eight point star with smaller fan cuts in between. The fan cuts do not intersect at the centre of the eight point star.
The cut pattern of the leaves and stem on my bowl look very similar to your linked example except on my bowl, the central stem is a cut groove that has not been polished, photo added. The linked example looks like a polished cut.
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That's not a bad match is it? yours also doesn't have the little tulip stem in between each arch but otherwise I think that's a good similarity.
And your bowl has a 32 point star cut on the foot. I like that cylindrical foot. Contemporary and 'spare' - stylish.
I can't come up with any 'matt' glass effects like that for Baccarat unfortunately but I think that's a good quality bowl. Is it heavy for size and does it ring nicely?
I like the cut on the foot of the decanter. That's quite elaborate for the base of something that can't even be seen from the inside like a bowl might be.
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Nothing on this thread is the 1868 Percival Vickers Registered pattern for the "Vienna" suite, which looks like this:
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Ooh that's lovely to see Neil.
Thanks
Copying link to Paul's original post for the pattern:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,70868.msg395598.html#msg395598
The date might be a steer on your bowl Ekimp?
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thanks Neil. Sorry, do we read that as "a bum steer' or is that steer as in 'steer toward' as in guidance?? ;) ;)
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That's not a bad match is it? yours also doesn't have the little tulip stem in between each arch but otherwise I think that's a good similarity.
And your bowl has a 32 point star cut on the foot. I like that cylindrical foot. Contemporary and 'spare' - stylish.
I can't come up with any 'matt' glass effects like that for Baccarat unfortunately but I think that's a good quality bowl. Is it heavy for size and does it ring nicely?
I like the cut on the foot of the decanter. That's quite elaborate for the base of something that can't even be seen from the inside like a bowl might be.
Yes, you’re right about the decanter, I hadn’t given the base much thought, it is quality. Perhaps when the butler is pouring you get a peek.
Yes not a bad match on the bowl, maybe they are from the same source but it might’ve just been fashion as shown by the Percival Vickers design. As you say, might give a clue to a date. Thanks for looking, I don’t think I’ll give it back to the charity shop :D. The bowl does feel quite heavy and rings nicely when flicked.
Thanks for showing the Percival Vickers example Neil, it looks like the frosting or matting on that is similar to mine, I think I can see circular scratches. The 1868 date (from Paul for the PV design) might well fit nicely with my bowl...unless it is a later copy....
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There are a few of these frond patterns in 1860s pressed glass. Molineaux Webb did a couple which we can date to 1863 and 1865.
Edward Moore did this one from a similar period
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Regarding dating of my bowl, I believe it actually post dates 1890. This is due to the ‘Intaglio’ style of cutting making up the plant design, specifically the leaves where the cut is almost flat against the surface. Intaglio decoration was developed by John Northwood in the early 1890s and is discussed here: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,68028.msg380843.html
If the bowl had been made earlier than this then I think the cuts would have been ‘V’ shapes, like in the moulded bowls that neilh has shown and the Rd. 217227 design drawing from Paul S., all from the 1860s.
Photo of the ‘intaglio’ decoration on my bowl from reply 31: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=70868.0;attach=243966
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Some interesting documented evidence of obscuring with an abrasive, especially the first one as the other two relate to plate glass:
Encyclopaedia Britannica a Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and Literature (American reprint) 1879, Page 591 lower half of right hand column - Flint Glass Cutting, Engraving and Etching. ‘Ground or obscured glass is made by rubbing the surface with sand and water’. It talks about etching with hydrofluoric acid as a separate process. There is a footnote for the section that says ‘A large proportion of the obscuring of the commoner varieties of glass and of the obscured ornamentation on plate and sheet as well as on flint glass is now produced by means of Tilghman’s sand blasting’.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7Mc8UPnDDQUC&pg=PA591&dq=obscured+glass+emery+powder&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj7seWT4u3zAhX3RUEAHSF1BoMQ6AF6BAgKEAM#v=onepage&q=obscured%20glass%20emery%20powder&f=false
The American stationer, volume 37, 1895, page 494 & 496. Relating to plate glass, talks about acid etching, fuming, and obscuring by hand grinding with emery powder.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0VJYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA496&dq=etch+glass+emery+powder&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiZ7-bY1-3zAhVLecAKHTyZB-44FBDoAXoECAMQAw#v=onepage&q=etch%20glass%20emery%20powder&f=false
Making glass focusing screens, obscured by grinding with emery. The Dictionary of Photography for the Amateur and Professional Photographer 1889, page 74.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OQAYAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA74&dq=ground+glass+emery+powder&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwin1tzr3O3zAhWznVwKHR5JD1kQ6AF6BAgDEAM#v=onepage&q=ground%20glass%20emery%20powder&f=false
Presumably the focusing screens had a uniform finish without obvious scratches.
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Might needle work, etched through the resist, produce very fine directional marks?
In reply, reply 13:
I think this was in connection with the grinding decoration on the compote? I think the marks produced by needle etching would be very obvious. Occasionally you see imitations of Northwood’s work where instead of frosting between the needle etched outline with a grinding wheel or white acid frosting (see reply eight), they have used more needle etching. This stands out like a sore thumb and looks very crude and I don’t think something you could mistake for mechanical grinding or proper acid frosting. I can’t find an example at the moment.
My acid etched glass shown below is an example of what I was thinking of re acid etching. Maybe a mod could add the photo to reply 13?
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This is interesting - an 1861 patent from Charles Bishop, Flint Glass Manufacturer St. Helen’s, Lancaster, for Improvements in Ornamenting Glass [“glass plates and articles of glass”]
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=bo-0FquxzC4C&pg=RA43-PA3&dq=glass+obscuring+lathe&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjB0fiQqa_0AhXpQUEAHXwIBoUQ6AF6BAgEEAM#v=onepage&q=glass%20obscuring%20lathe&f=false
He is describing metal stencils so that different areas can be obscured to create patterns but the interesting bit is “...the unprotected portions of the surface of the glass are to be ground by means of wet sand or of emery, applied by a brush wheel composed of wire, and revolving in a lathe or in a glass grinders’ frame in the way that is well known and commonly practised by glass cutters for producing a ground or obscured surface”.
In this case I think the lathe mentioned is just for spinning the brush but it is pretty conclusive proof of the mechanical abrasion method of frosting/obscuring/matting and that it was “commonly practised”.
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A good and interesting find. Thanks.
I wonder what kind of surface effect was left by the brush. Presumably a finely striated surface with what looks like very thin fine brush strokes around the body?
( I'm still wondering how the body of my azure blue etruscan style vase was given the satin/matt surface which iirc doesn't have fine lines on the surface)
m
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:)
I think on the pieces that I have shown, the lines/scratches around the diameter are due to the article being turned whilst the abrasive (possibly a wire brush) was held against it. I have a couple of other items that have uniform looking frosting with no obvious lines or scratches but I am convinced are abraded mechanically. I think like most things, they could probably achieve a wide variety of finishes depending on the quality of the item and how much time was spent.
I have a modern (1980s?) Jon Art object that is acid frosted that I was getting ready to post. The photo below shows a closeup of the finish compared to that on the decanter in this topic. The photos are the same scale with a pin shown for comparison. The mechanical abrasion (on the left), I believe leaves a surface that looks like tiny chips, the acid etched finish looks like very fine condensation with more rounded tiny pits. The antique acid frosting may well look different to this though, but I think it should be noticeably different to the mechanical abrasion.
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Great photographs!
I will get some time soon and will do a close up of the blue and a close up of a sand-blasted Japanese cameo piece to show those.
I think the blue close up, from memory, will look like the decanter so perhaps that's how it was done.
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Thanks. I have a lens that clips over the camera on my tablet and it works surprisingly well for closeups.
It would be interesting to see your examples.
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Very, very nice photo's and description. With the contrast of clear glass you really get a feel for the technique. Here are some photo's from an early English creamer probably 1860's.
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the top down handle looks to confirm your suggestion of approximate date Cagney. The frosting here lacks any directional appearance, so do we assume this is sand-blasted? Hajdamach writes that "the invention of sand-blasting had already taken place by 1870 .................. " - invented apparently in the States by one Benjamin C. Tilghman. What in particular suggests this is English - the handle possibly?? :)
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See thread Feb.have no ibea18.2018. "Persival, Yates & Vickers creamer ca. 1865"
It has that semi-satin feel of acid treatment. Wether with vapors or brushed or bathed I have no idea. Think it would make a difference? The photo's are a of areas of extreme close up in contrast. As to sandblasted glass I am not familiar with it.
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Oops, did not see the typo. Here are some photo's of the whole.
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thanks - agree it's a very nice piece - are you able to add details of the height Cagney? - I was tempted to suggest blasting after looking at the extremities of the opaqueness where there is a very gritty/grainy appearance, not the smooth finish that I'd have expected acid to produce. Apparently, the material used to 'blast' glass wasn't always sand, though likely sand was used more than any other medium. If you look at the acid work of designers such as Marinot and Daum - it's true the acid leaves an irregular surface, but not a gritty dull matt look seen on many of the pieces in this thread. However, I may well be completely wrong and you are possibly correct.
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Creamer is 12.5 cm to top of handle. One more photo angle.
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Very, very nice photo's and description. With the contrast of clear glass you really get a feel for the technique. Here are some photo's from an early English creamer probably 1860's.
Hi, thanks and thanks for your nice clear photos of the creamer, been away from the machine so couldn’t reply sooner. In my view, the evidence shown on your creamer perfectly matches the abrasive wheel technique described by Charles Bishop in my link (reply 41).
When you look at the crimped rim, none of the low spots have been frosted so if this was acid or blasting they would’ve needed masking. It looks like there are other low spots on the surface near the crimping that have been unintentionally left clear (or less heavily frosted) as the spinning wire brush hasn’t reached the low points. I don’t think this can be explained for acid frosting or sand blasting.
In the second photograph, that shows the inside of the rim, it looks to me like there is a horizontal orientation of the marks (where the piece is highlighted).
In the area around the lower handle where it transitions from frosted to clear it looks like the frosting feathers out rather than reaching a nice clear boundary if masking was used (as Paul mentions). Some marks in this transition area also look like linear scratches that I can’t see being formed from sandblasting - that I imagine would form craters rather than scratches.
It also looks like the abrasive wheel has touched its side to the scroll/finial at the bottom of the handle. There might be marks on the loop of the handle where the wheel has touched, as it must have been awkward to frost under the loop.
An interesting creamer. I’ve addled a link to your original post for this that you mentioned: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,66313.0.html
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See page 33 of this link for some pieces acid-etched by J. and J. Northwood:
https://www.cmog.org/sites/default/files/collections/01/01F59713-B8D1-45A6-9860-897B4DA4F615.pdf
P.s. I think the epergne shown on page 34 is something we've discussed before and I think it's not 'Stevens and Williams' as noted on that link, but was by Walsh Walsh. I think.
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Regarding mechanical abrasion where the glass article is spun in a lathe, and expanding on Cagney’s useful reference in reply 17.
Popular Science 1890 (from USA) page 166 - 167. (Talking about glass globes that I assume are light shades).
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=RCADAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA166&dq=obscured+glass+sand+lathe&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiu1JuM7J31AhWRi1wKHaDpC3MQ6AF6BAgIEAM#v=onepage&q=obscured%20glass%20sand%20lathe&f=false
“...The globes are mounted on a lathe over a sand-box, being fastened between plates of cork in order that they shall not be fractured by the jar. The workmen presses a bundle of soft, annealed iron wire against the surface of the quickly rotating globe, and, almost in less time than it takes one to tell about it, the [obscured] band is completed.
The wires simply determine where the obscuring shall be. The real grinding is done by the sand and water with which the surface of the globe is kept constantly supplied.”
It goes on to say the same technique is used if the whole surface is to be obscured. Note this is in 1890 and so post dates the invention of abrasive (sand) blasting by twenty years - so the technique was not superseded by the invention of sandblasting. Cutting into an obscured surface is also described.
And also:
Report on The Manufacture of Glass (1883 I think)
Section - Flint Glass Cutting, Engraving, and Etching
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IKs6AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA1089&dq=patent+obscured+glass+sand+lathe&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwicvf-I5531AhVCoVwKHY5KBYoQ6AF6BAgMEAM#v=onepage&q=patent%20obscured%20glass%20sand%20lathe&f=false
“...Ground or obscured glass is made by grinding the surface on a wheel with sand and water. In some works in this country [USA] the article is placed in a lathe, and while it is revolving sand and water is applied by a wire brush.”
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There are a handful of American EAPG patterns that have grinding [ probably by a stone wheel ] on raised portions of the pattern pre-dating sand blast. Pictured is the pattern Roman Key [A.K.A. Frosted Roman Key].
Another pattern made by Bakewell Pears Co. called Ribbon [A.K.A. Frosted Ribbon] was sandblasted on the vertical raised panels and left clear on the alternating depressed vertical panels. Of special note are the two compotes with figural stems. one in the shape of a dolphin and another with a grecian type woman holding a large jar on her shoulder [A.K.A." Rebecca at the well"]. Both stems and foot are sandblasted along with the raised vertical panels on the bowl. A fairly decent photo of the dolphin compote can be seen at https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1870s-eapg-bakewell-pears-frosted-1918262190 (https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1870s-eapg-bakewell-pears-frosted-1918262190)
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One of the better explanations of the difference between acid frosting and sandblastng. From the book ' Antique Fakes & Reproductions' enlarged and revised c.1950. By Ruth Webb Lee.
The frosted panels on the old Ribbon pattern was accomplished by sandblasting, a process which antedated the use of acid as a method of applying a frosted finish. "White acid" as the glassmakers termed it, leaves a soft, rose-petal surface while sandblasting leaves the surface smooth but with a firm, coarser feel to it.
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Thank you for the detailed descriptions of the methods.
Is that goblet by Bakewell Pears Co.? It's a great shape.
Is this the dolphin footed bowl?: (not a better pic actually because you can't see the frosted surface that well)
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/2226
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There are a handful of American EAPG patterns that have grinding [ probably by a stone wheel ] on raised portions of the pattern pre-dating sand blast. Pictured is the pattern Roman Key [A.K.A. Frosted Roman Key].
That’s interesting to see, thanks. I should think the glass in your photos was an example that was turned on a lathe whilst the key was roughened, like you say, probably with a wheel. Looking at your closeup, its hard to see how this could have been done by any other method.
On the Bakewell Ribbon compote, they must have had to mask the clear vertical panels before blasting, unless they ground the vertical panels with a broad wheel and just blasted the awkward shape dolphin? Do you think they were definitely talking about sand blasting in the book, not the grinding method? Don’t want to be contrary for the sake of it but the vertical panels seem like a good candidate for mechanical grinding. Looking at the lid of this sugar from the range https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/371047453437?hash=item566426d2fd:g:RDsAAOxySoJTU~WA in the sixth photo it looks like you can see the scuff marks from some sort of wheel. I’ll have to lookout for an example over here and have a close look.
From your quote, the book says “sandblasting, a process which antedated the use of acid as a method of applying a frosted finish”. As I understand it, sandblasting was patented in the USA in 1870 but white acid was developed in the U.K. by Northwood c1867 but earlier on the continent (don’t know about in the USA). So it’s actually acid frosting that antedated sandblasting (if I’ve understood ‘antedated’ correctly :) ). Maybe when she says sandblasting, she actually meant the grinding method, which preceded both blasting and acid frosting?
I wonder why there is a tide line at the top of the dolphin on the worthpoint one - they have missed the top section of tail.
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This pattern Roman Key seems to be always attributed to one of the eastern glass companies as are the other patterns with the same technique. They are thought to date from the late 1860s and are lead glass. Western glass companies [Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Ohio] being early adapters to the non-lead glass formula for pattern glass at that time. An undated list of glassware from the Cape Cod Glass Co. list eleven patterns of glassware and the different pieces that could be had. One pattern [ Rose Sprig ] could be had "plain' or "roughed". Although undated, a window of time can be given by virtue of the address of their front office they moved to in 1863 and the close of operations in 1869.
Further research on the Ribbon pattern indicates that it is NOT sandblasted. The ribbons are ground. I think the earlier confusion [c. 1950] comes about because the grind is less coarse [ softer?] than earlier
grinding. The figural bases on the compotes are frosted by acid. This pattern is usually given a date of circa 1870 in most pattern glass books. I can find no evidence for that date. The "Rebecca" compote dates to 1877 at the earliest by virtue of a mention in the Crockery and Glass Journal in February and June of that year. New items offered by Bakewell, Pears & Co." comports....with Rebecca foot".
" rich and ornamental pieces. "Rebecca" who upholds the bowl is frosted". The dolphin is actually pictured in a undated catalog thought to be c. 1875 at the earliest by virtue of the patented shell bowl attached. It could be had in clear, frosted and opal. Opal being the term used for opaline in 19th c. glassworks [U.S.A.]. The ribbon pattern does not appear in this catalog. A descriptoin of the company's display at the Centennial Exhibition [1876] reports " In the table-ware the first thing to note is a charming shell fruit stand [in crystal]. The bowl is upheld by a dolphin".
The general tableware in this pattern does not support an early date of 1870. The handles on the creamers and pitchers are pressed and such pieces as the cheese dish and water tray are articles that suggest a later date. The celery in the Corning Museum is given a wide date "!870 about- 1882 about"
I had to dig deep into my personal library and it took some time. Between work and the generalities of life it was a happy slog. The most up to date information comes from the book "ARTISTRY and INNOVATION" in Pittsburgh Glass, 1808-1882. This book covers the exhibition of Bakewell Glass at the Frick Art & Historical Center in 2005.
A really nice photo of the "Rebecca" compote. https//www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/original-eapg-rebecca-at-the-well-compote-c-1870 (http://https//www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/original-eapg-rebecca-at-the-well-compote-c-1870)
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oops. https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/original-eapg-rebecca-at-the-well-compote-c-1870
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Thank you for such a detailed reply.
I love her face. It's a beautifully molded support.
On a separate note but it's reminded me:
I'm curious about some powder bowls that have been on here before. I have a couple, a jester and a woman with bubbles I think. I wonder if they are American made/molded. mmm. I might have another look into those later.
Thanks again.
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It is so nice I may have to buy one. My earlier description as " Grecian" a bit off. More Babylonian I think.
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Yes, thanks for posting your research, you had fun :)
The acid frosting probably accounts for the tide line on the dolphin in my previous link, presumably they dipped the stem and foot into an acid bath up to the tide line.
It is interesting that they have used two techniques to obscure the glass on the same item. Even when the facilities are available for acid frosting, they have still chosen to also use mechanical grinding. It must have been a more cost effective solution, showing acid frosting isn’t necessarily cheaper or quicker than grinding, it probably depended on the application.
Rebecca looks quite strong ;D
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I think you are correct on all counts. In fact I thought the same about the two different techniques on the same piece. On most of the tableware they omit the grinding on the short foot and other parts with the pattern that is difficult to reach. Quick and easy or don't bother, evidently. More cost effective that way.
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Farbenglas 1, Neuwirth mentions frosting by grinding or ‘Agatizing’ on page 274 and says there were numerous examples at the Prague Exhibisions of 1828, 1829, 1831, and 1836. He shows an 1837 goblet from Harrach for illustration, plate 97 page 127.
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Farbenglas 1, Neuwirth mentions frosting by grinding or ‘Agatizing’ on page 274 and says there were numerous examples at the Prague Exhibisions of 1828, 1829, 1831, and 1836. He shows an 1837 goblet from Harrach for illustration, plate 97 page 127.
She :)
Biography here - interesting:
https://austria-forum.org/af/Biographien/Neuwirth%2C_Waltraud]
Das Bohmische Glas Band II shows examples from the 1820 - blown and enamelled which was quite 'in' then. Not cut though as far as I recall (not near book at mo to check). Not to say it didn't occur on cut glass examples but I don't think there are any in that book from that period.
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Oops, I should have checked Waltraud :)
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;D It's a great book isn't it?
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Yes…especially now I know about the English translation ;D
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;D - There is such a huge amount of information all squished into that translation. It's amazing.
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Ekimp see also From Neuwelt to the Whole World, Jan Mergl - page 140 plate 168 - goblet, engraved in Harrachov, probably the workshop of Franz Zacher. A partially matte-treated crystal glass. Dates to 1804-1845.
Certainly seen matt treated glass from the 1820s in Das Bohmische glas.
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Thanks, the effect looks similar to the decanter that started this thread but hard to see from the photo. They don’t seem to differentiate between types of matte treatment though, for example on page 188 plate 224 is an 1885 vase that is also ‘matte treated’, but perhaps by then it was matte treated by acid rather than abrasion.
Just noticed that MacConnell The Decanter page 281 says “The [acid etch] technique was bolstered from 1860 by the invention in France of white acid, a hydrofluoric acid/alkali solution that left a matt-white effect similar to engraving. Pellatt and others exhibited white acid decoration in London in 1862 and Paris in 1867”.
So according to McConnell white acid frosting was invented (first?) in France in 1860 so presumably it was just mechanical abrasion before then. White acid from Pellat isn’t mentioned by Hajdamach or Northwood II that seem to say in the U.K. white acid was invented by John Northwood I in around 1867. Hajdamach also says white acid “was known on the Continent well before the 1867 date of Northwood’s use”. That sounds earlier than McConnell’s 1860.
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Farbenglas II shows a matt ground (agatised? -) superb goblet on page 127 from Neuwelt. It dates to 1837. I think the description she gives on page 274 indicates this was mechanical ground (agatised? - ). It's incredibly smooth and silky in the photograph and looks acid etched but it isn't. She doesn't mention acid etching at all as far as I can see. Her description of the surface being ground and the people who did the work is interesting.
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Yes, I’m sure the goblet in the Harrach book has been mechanically ground, especially given what is said in Farbenglas. It’s a shame though that they don’t seem to say anything in the Harrach book to indicate when they might have started to also use acid matting, they just say ‘matte treated’. It would be useful to know when acid matting became available as an option.
For those without the Farbenglas book, page 127 showing the mechanically ground goblet can be seen here:
http://waltraudneuwirth.at/Buecher-Selbstverlag-Html/1993-Farbenglas%201-%20Farbenpaletten.html
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Hajdamach on Northwood’s work on pages 184/185 says: “The effects produced by Northwood’s [acid etching] machines consisted only of outlines. If the areas inside the figures were to be shaded the glass was passed to the engraving shop. Broad copper wheels were used to matt [or frost] the surface...” [my square brackets]. He used this mechanical frosting over large areas as illustrated by a jug in Plate 166. He goes on to say Northwood then develops an acid etch frosting treatment used in conjunction with resists, but the grinding method was used by them until c1862.
The above from reply 8. The c1862 is a mistake, it should read c1867 (it was the jug show in plate 166 that was dated 1862). Could a mod edit it or add a note please?
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In reply 43 I showed a photograph comparing the abraded frosting of the decanter that was the original subject of this topic, with a modern Jon Art acid frosted item. The photograph is reproduced below.
I’ve now got a new toy so that I can have a closer look at surfaces. It’s a microscope that is nothing at all fancy or expensive (it’s a bit plasticky) and not designed for photography, so the results aren’t perfect, but not too bad either. The pictures were also clearer before shrinking for the forum.
The Jon Art acid frosting is shown first, at x100 and x175 magnification. The abrasive frosted decanter is shown below that at the same magnifications. The x100 images show an area approximately 1.35mm across and the x175 images show an area approximately 0.75mm across. For reference, the pin in the original photograph is 0.65mm diameter.
I got rid of the original Jon Art piece so the new photograph is a different Jon Art signed piece but frosted in the same way. You can see the quite uniform pits of the acid frosting and also the rougher less even chipped surface that has been abraded.
I have other similar photographs comparing a Richardson abrasion frosted goblet with Northwood white acid frosting. Interestingly, the Northwood white acid finish looks much like the Jon Art frosting, but about twice as fine. I will include those photographs on the topic for the goblet here: https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,70755.msg402733.html#msg402733
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Here are the x175 magnification images from above but with slightly better resolution.
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Yes, I’m sure the goblet in the Harrach book has been mechanically ground, especially given what is said in Farbenglas. It’s a shame though that they don’t seem to say anything in the Harrach book to indicate when they might have started to also use acid matting, they just say ‘matte treated’. It would be useful to know when acid matting became available as an option.
For those without the Farbenglas book, page 127 showing the mechanically ground goblet can be seen here:
http://waltraudneuwirth.at/Buecher-Selbstverlag-Html/1993-Farbenglas%201-%20Farbenpaletten.html
I'm think I've read somewhere (a few weeks ago it was mentioned in something I was reading) that Harrach were using acid for designs quite early on in 19th but I can't remember where I read it now. I was going to look for this post to put the information on here but was distracted and forgot about it. I've not read the entire Harrach book. Is there no mention in there?
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Thanks for thinking of it. I’ve not read the whole thing either and can’t remember how hard I looked in the book previously. I haven’t got anything definitely Harrach to have a close look at. I think some of the abrasive frosting is very fine, if they used a fine abrasive particle.