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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Ekimp on July 10, 2021, 03:30:17 PM
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I got five of these small saucers a while ago as I thought they looked Georgian. The style of cutting looks similar to some of the Regency cutting shown in Hajdamach. The cutting also looks similar to reproductions shown in the fakes chapter of Hajdamach - but the cutting is very sharp as you can see and they have a slightly greyish tint. There is quite a bit of nibbling to the rim but can’t determine much wear as the base is quite rough.
They are actually cut from a pressed ‘figured blank’, where the cut pattern is already pressed into the blank, the pressed pattern is then cut. What looks a bit like a flake chip in the first closeup photo, and what looks like a drop of water at the apex of the ‘v’ on the second closeup photo are actually the remains of the pressed pattern, areas not reached by the cutting wheel. The inside of the dish is smooth but with a very slight ripple that can’t be felt. 90mm diameter.
Seems the figured blank is more associated with American brilliant cut glass. I can’t find anything obvious about figured blanks in Hajdamach, McConnell says the figured blank was invented by Henry Fry in America and that ‘until c.1904, all cut glass was derived from mould-blown blanks’. The ‘mould-blown blanks’ would have been the plain ones with no pattern, not figured.
There is a reasonably interesting bit about figured blanks here: https://www.brilliantglass.com/figured-blanks-2/ from ‘The House of Brilliant Glass, specializing in American brilliant cut glass’. They say ‘The “figured” blank is best regarded as a pollutant and, with few exceptions, should be destroyed’. :o Interestingly, at the end of the page, in the section ‘A Precursor to the American-Made “Figured” Blank?’ they show a footed mantle vase with a slight, greyish tint that is of origin unknown. They speculate it maybe an English example from the mid 19th century, quoting Elville, 1953, p. 73 (from English Table Glass?) for possible corroboration, as far as I can make out pre-dating Fry’s ‘invention’ of c.1904.
I think my dishes might be another example of the earlier English version of the technique.
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...and another one. I got this bowl the other day which is another example of the use of a figured blank. This time it is a mould blown figured blank, blown into a patterned mould, then cut. As this is mould blown (not pressed) you can easily feel undulations on the inside where the glass follows the peaks and troughs of the pattern that is on the outside. You can see on my closeup photo the only area where part of the pattern has been missed by the cutting.
I thought this one resembled a spherical Georgian salt, although I wasn’t sure about the elongated diamond shaped cuts and the rim, which isn’t flat but dips in the middle.
It goes to show you have to watch what you buy, they could easily be miss-represented. Luckily mine were pence not pounds. :D
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....and another one!
This one looks like a small salt and could go nicely with the saucer in my original post. About 50mm diameter. Again, the cutting style looks Georgian to me but it looks brighter than the saucer. There is loads of wear on the cutting and lots of light scratches to the flat base. It’s difficult to see the remains of the moulded pattern without close examination with a loupe. You can feel no indication of the moulded pattern on the inside.
I said before that I thought the saucer might be an earlier English version but seeing as they are cropping up I assume they probably date to after Fry’s invention in 1904. Having said that, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to suppose that a glass cutter got their hands on some pressed glass, and had a go at over cutting it prior to 1904 - doesn’t seem a big leap of imagination.
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Very interesting topic. Am reading and learning.
m
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Thanks :)
I should mention that the small salt has a couple of other similar remaining mould marks (including in the star cut in the base). If there was just the one mark, it might possibly look like the edge of a bubble that had been almost cut away.
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https://pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2020w-sg-lithyalinvasen-form-geblasen-1815-1840.pdf
Above pressglas-korrespondenz, Para 2 page 19
Talking about the French glass engineer D'Artigues, I think sometime in the period 1802 to 1831 when he owned glassworks in Vonêche in Belgium. It says that to avoid waste by grinding, if possible he would mould blow articles ‘…in moulds that no longer required loss-making grinding, but "only" had to be re-ground and polished’. That sounds like a figured blank and much earlier than Henry Fry’s ‘invention’ in America.
Also, In From Neuwelt to the Whole World, page 66/67 it briefly talks about decoration of hollow ware in the 1820s by pressing, as a cheaper substitute for cutting. It doesn’t sound like it was used much by Harrach as it didn’t ‘fit with the policy of the Harrach factory’ but says it was different for chandelier hangings that they started producing in 1826 ‘Their basic form was created using pressing pliers, and then they were refined by cutting’.
So the chandelier hangings were also made from figured blanks.
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Got one of those baccarat pieces which I recently found, it’s on page 15/16 on that korrespondent link above. Jasmin vase. Didn’t realise it was as old as that, regards Mike
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A nice find, in the Pressglas article it seems to mention a few makers for this type: uknown 1830-1850 (page 15) Vonêche or Baccarat?; Meyr's nephew c1840 (page 16)? I find it can be confusing trying to Google translate those articles. Not cut but they seem to be speculating as to how the mould seams were removed and whether there was ‘ghosting’ inside. Probably deserves it own topic :)
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The stunning blue and white Johann Meyr becher is a separate discussion.
I believe from translation it:
-discusses whether it could have been mold blown or not (I think it says not given the difficulty of two colours) and
- talks about how much of the blue glass was cut away to reveal the white and what technique they might have used to accomplish that.
(btw this is another example of early Bohemian cameo glass - I feel it's important to acknowledge this as Bohemian cameo technique was being made very early in the 19th century and in my opinion seems to be forgotten in articles where much fervour is devoted to English cameo later in the century and of course French cameo glass also later in the century.)
- says there is some inventory of Johann Meyr items in the Technischen Museum Wien but this becher was not amongst that.
- was made by Johann Meyr prior to 1841.
(all open to correction as this is my understanding from the translation)
Your Jasmin vase is nice. There are many articles on these in the Pressglas-Korrespondenz over the years. Mr Geiselberger has a significantly large collection and some of the articles include photographs. They all need to be read to form a picture of date/manufacture of these. I own an early example (1830s from St Louis ) in opalescent white with an intricate and delicate pattern, mold blown using the Robinet method.
m
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Another figured blank. Quite heavily cut, looks bohemian, shame the silver rim is missing (probably English hallmarked silver). It would be interesting to find one with the original silver rim that dated before 1904 when figured blanks were supposedly invented. I think this vase is from around that time.
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Interesting piece of history. Did you mean 1904?
I generally try never to criticise glass because of the amount of time and effort that goes into making it however, it is very much death by a thousand cuts isn't it? :-X The shape is just lovely without the ground rim and the cutting on it.
I had an old Victorian era I think marbled glass perfume bottle, handblown, that had been cut all over it. I felt the same about that. My eyes were constantly trying to view the piece without the cutting :) Should be on the board somewhere - I'll have a look.
Edited to add - here's the perfume:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46142.msg258748.html#msg258748
m
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Yes, 1904 was when Fry supposedly invented the figured blank and when I was looking for similar vases to mine they seemed to date to around that time.
I know what you mean about the cutting, I don’t like the neck at all although I do quite like some of the chunky stuff on the bulbous part, thought that part looked like an earlier bohemian style (except for the star).
Thanks for the link, not seen cutting on anything feathered before…does seem a bit unnecessary :D Shame people remove the rims, I assume to sell for the scrap value but they must be so light they’re worth peanuts :(
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I suppose it could also be that the rims get worn from polishing or dented/damaged and slip off and get thrown away perhaps?
m
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Yes hadn’t considered that…and I’m sure some rims are moved to other more desirable pieces!
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Rims are often held on with plaster that breaks up...
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oh, that's an interesting point Christine. I had that happen to a ceramic salt and pepper many moons ago. I'd no idea they used the same technique on glass items. Thanks :)
m
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The American publication Appleton’s Dictionary of Machines, Mechanics, Engine-work, and Engineering has a clear description of using figured blanks, this appears to be from 1851. Again, this is much earlier than the supposed invention of the technique by Fry in 1904.
Page 869: “Glass, for the purposes of the grinder, is better prepared by the use of proper moulds than by simple blowing, partly because the forms are frequently not so simple as to admit of their being made by hand, and partly because the various grooves and projections upon the surface can be roughly given by means of a mould without adding to the difticulty of blowing, and time and trouble is thus saved in the laborious operation of grinding.”
And Page 879: “For this reason, the surface of moulded glass is not even, but always more or less curved, and the edges are not sharp; but the use of moulds as a preparatory step to grinding, is of great advantage to the grinder, as the vessel acquires a perfectly regular form, and, although in a crude state, presents all the prominent and receding facets to be perfected at the lathe.”
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Appletons_Dictionary_of_Machines_Mechani/H3wt6nG0wooC?hl=en&gbpv=1
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This guide book to the Great Exhibition also talks about the use of figured blanks - also 1851. See page 92. It talks about molds being used and then finished off by grinding/cutting at the lathe.
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Guide_book_to_the_Industrial_exhibition/7u4HAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=glass+for+the+purpose+of+the+grinder+1851&pg=PA92&printsec=frontcover
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Yes, thanks. Makes complete sense that they would have thought to cut pre-moulded glass, probably as soon as moulded glass was developed.
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Pepper pot with a hallmarked silver lid and the body cut from a figured blank. It is 2.5 inches tall with a flat polished base. I think the lid is probably original, hallmarked for London 1902 by Hart & Sons.
You can see a sliver where the cutting hasn’t removed all of the original surface of the blank, and if you poke a piece of wire inside you can feel the inside surface undulating as it follows the pattern on the outside.
The glass thread for the lid has been moulded and has four vertical seams. I expect anything with a moulded thread and a cut body will have been cut from a figured blank (and probably any items from the same set if a cruet set etc).