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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Paul S. on July 28, 2021, 02:20:23 PM

Title: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: Paul S. on July 28, 2021, 02:20:23 PM

a common and well known design and about which I'd imagine shed loads of ink has been spilled over the years.    This one came via a charity shop earlier in the week for couple of pounds, so bought it as I'd long since parted with the example I did have.     However, I've forgotten why these things carry both Reg. Nos., so grateful if someone is able to remind me please.     Both Reg. Nos. occur about a year after the diamond lozenge proper, ceased, so I don't have pix or Register data which might have helped.       As usual with these things the name GRACE DARLING appears at the stern of the boat, under which I think the No. 39414 is seen, usually, though this boat lacks that No.  -  possibly as this pressing was from a v. worn mould.           On the inside floor of the boat, midway along and viewed from the stern there appears the name - GRACE DARLING - under which is the word BOAT - under that is the No. 23527.           
Unfortunately, the V. & A, archive seems not to explain as to why there are two Reg. Nos.  -  the museum wrongly speaks of these Nos. as 'Diamond Registration marks  ...... "
This slightly earlier Reg. No. would occur somewhere around mid March 1885.           Am sure someone like Bernard Cavelot must have commented somewhere in past years.

I'm guessing, but likely one No. covers the shape and the other the daisy and button surface decoration.   thanks for looking.

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: NevB on July 28, 2021, 03:09:27 PM

Apparently the two numbers relate to the Grace Darling name of the piece and the design. Here's a link to my uranium glass one.



https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,70346.msg391672.html#msg391672

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: Paul S. on July 28, 2021, 06:18:13 PM

thanks for the information and links. :)  -  So, we're saying that Ed. Bolton Registered the name Grace Darling, under either 23527 or 39414 (probably the former), and the shape is covered by the later No.               I could be wrong, but don't recall anything similar under pressed pieces where a real name was so Registered  -  though the late C19 does contain some v. well known names which appear on certain pressed pieces  -  Gladstone and Peabody, on plates, for example.      Do you know if, in those instances, there were two Registration Nos. in a similar way to the subject here?                 Of course. the tragedy of the loss of her life became a cause celebre at the time and public feeling of sadness for her heroism was immense, and that may have driven Ed. Bolton to create the Registration in the way you say (for altruistic reasons, of course).         I did hunt - albeit not very thoroughly - before posting, but couldn't find information in line with your answer, and was already wondering why the earlier of the two Nos. isn't listed by authors like Slack, Thompson and Sheilagh Murray - surely they must have been aware of the very obvious connection between the Registration for this boat (for which they mostly offer the No. 39414 only, for the shape), and as you say the other Registration for the lady's name.        I think we all assume 39414 is for the boat, leaving 23527 for the name - though quite why the time lag before the later Registration I've no idea.           Of course, that info. may well be in your link and I've missed seeing it.       Again, I may have missed seeing provenance for these details on the Board somewhere, but I'm inclined to think that some form of positive id in the way of a Kew picture - to corroborate your answer - will be of great interest to folk who look in here, so a visit to TNA to acquire some images will be really worthwhile.    I'm assuming that the Board's pressed archive must have pix of this Ed. Bolton boat.                 Having looked briefly through the above authors, the absence of information on Edward Bolton is deafening.         
Thanks again, and yes your uranium example is stunning  -  very envious.  :)

P.S.    out of curiosity, has anyone been to Kew recently  -  are they more or less open for business??  -  I can of course phone, but just wondered.

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: NevB on July 28, 2021, 08:55:21 PM

I can't find the post where I found the information about the registration numbers but I must have read it somewhere  ???. I think possibly E.Bolton saw an opportunity to register the name under 23527 with the intention of using it later and it wasn't until nine months after that they registered the design of the boat. I don't know if this was been common practice at the time. As I mentioned the design was probably inspired by one by Hobbs Brockunier. 

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: Paul S. on July 28, 2021, 09:26:53 PM

thanks Nev.    assuming I can get to TNA in the coming week or so, then hopefully that will resolve the matter.    thanks again.

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: neilh on July 28, 2021, 09:29:16 PM

The Bolton boats are absolutely everywhere even though the works closed within a few years of its production. I'm sure the mould was sold on and the majority of them were made in the northeast, maybe Davidson?

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: Paul S. on July 29, 2021, 07:27:52 AM

thanks - an interesting suggestion Neil  -  there certainly are comments in the books suggesting this design/shape is the most frequently seen, though as to someone else using the mould I've no idea.              Before I go marching off to TNA, have you been there and have you looked at the image of 23527 in the Kew archives ?

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: neilh on July 29, 2021, 09:10:52 AM

No I haven't got that one. I need to go back to check on a few myself, but not if masks are still required, my glasses steam up!

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: Paul S. on July 29, 2021, 01:20:49 PM

mine do too  -  not always for the same reason though.     Appears they're open and business is almost back to normal, so I'll probably book for a session for next week some time.     I've tried phoning without success, and can't see from their web site what the current mask status is.       I don't need specs ordinarily for desk work, so having to wear both not an issue for me.

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: NevB on July 29, 2021, 01:58:41 PM

This post has some more information, it is old so most of the links don't work.


https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,5051.0.html

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: Paul S. on July 29, 2021, 02:14:45 PM

thanks Nev.      Aside from yourself, it appears that Dave Peterson was the only contributor to comment that 'one Registration is for design and one for the name' - so that is a big help, and much appreciated, but as we can see from those contributors, the details surrounding the origins of what we now call the Ed. Bolton boat, are quite complex.      I will still visit Kew shortly as I think it will add interest etc., if we can have archive pix of both Registrations.    thanks again.

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: LinzC on August 06, 2021, 10:19:37 AM

So, I'm not sure if this will help any, but I have three variants of the Bolton boats; 13", 11" & 6.25".  All three of them have Rd 39414 on the back end of the boat.

The 11" boat has the words Grace Darling on the back, as well as Rd 23527 and the

Grace Darling
Boat
_._
Rd 23527

in the base.  I took it to mean that they'd registered 23527 as the "Grace Darling Boat" to prevent other people using the name, whilst the general shape and pattern was 39414.

I think the people of that time, were just shocked as anything that a woman rowed a boat and rescued people. Hence why they created a commemorative boat 50 years later.  The RNLI have a page about her https://rnli.org/about-us/our-history/timeline/1838-grace-darling

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: NevB on August 06, 2021, 11:49:00 AM

Thanks LinzC, I think that confirms my thoughts on the RD numbers. Mine has the two numbers and the name on the stern but not the word boat. It will be interesting to see what Paul comes up with.

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: Paul S. on August 09, 2021, 07:44:46 AM

I've managed to book a session at TNA for this coming Friday with the main purpose of looking at the records for these two Registrations/Representations.       If there were another one or possibly two unrelated items that someone is very keen to see, I could fit in at the same time, if details are provided. 

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: LinzC on August 09, 2021, 07:37:54 PM

That is a really kind offer Paul.  I still haven't made it down to look at the Holborn Glass Works registration yet, Rd.684000 (6th July 1921).   I've not come across another item with this registration number yet.  I'm so curious if the registration relates to the entire bowl, or the pattern, shape, etc.

It's not pressing though, I'll get down to Kew eventually, so if there is something else to look up don't worry.  If I worked this out correctly it's reference BT 52/702. 

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: Paul S. on August 09, 2021, 08:04:52 PM

Hi Lin.  Will certainly look this one up for you, and thanks for running down the Kew reference.  Assuming all goes well I'll post the results in due course.

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: LinzC on August 10, 2021, 05:55:12 AM

Thank you Paul

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: Paul S. on August 12, 2021, 08:01:18 AM

sorry to be a pain, but did a check late last evening on the suggestion of BT 52/702 for the Holborn Glass Works item, and came up with BT 52/909 for the Representations reference.     This item is included in the listing - toward the bottom of the page - for 'Non-Textile Registrations for 09/09/1909 through to 31/03/1950  ........    it is a long page :)        If you get the chance today you might have another look for me please - thanks.           The group in question occur in the second line of items - subheading 11.2.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/registered-designs-1839-1991/

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: LinzC on August 12, 2021, 08:59:48 AM

Hi Paul,

I found BT 52/909, covering designs 683936-684094, dated 1921 for design representations.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C441372

Is this what you needed?  I'm afraid I don't really understand how this all works yet.  :-\

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: Paul S. on August 12, 2021, 11:26:18 AM

Hi - yes, I think it's BT 52/909 that we need  -  at least I shall find out if that's wrong tomorrow when I get there but hope not. ;D             The range of Nos. 683936 to 684094 obviously includes your 684000, and that whole group will be shown within one Representations book  -  some of the books are immense and very heavy, and the leather on some of the C19 books suffer from 'red rot' - a breakdown of the leather where it becomes dry and powders.     This doesn't do white shirts a lot of good.
Representations books are the locations for all the pix, photos, drawings etc., that show an image of the item in some form or another, plus the Registration No. is stamped or shown in some way on the image.            The Registers are those books that include the text only - they detail the name of the Registrant, address, usually the CLASS of the item, and sometimes give a very brief description.              The Kew Register Reference for your item is BT 53/42, and I'll have a squint at this too should there be any additional information that we might consider of interest. 

As you can imagine, the total material of the Kew archive for Patents, Trade Marks and Registrations is truly vast, and most of the stuff we want relating to Registrations isn't available down to item level, so at best we need to order up the books covering, usually, a large number of Registrations which we know will include the item we want to research, so this always means a visit to Kew.

does this help you to understand a little of how TNA system works? :)

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: LinzC on August 12, 2021, 11:52:15 AM

Yes, thank you very much for explaining Paul.  Our archives up here are tiny in comparison.

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: Paul S. on August 13, 2021, 01:45:51 PM

Problems still it seems.      Attached are pix from Kew archives this morning showing the boat as covered by Registration 39414 dated 11th December 1885, which the Representation book describes as  ' ............ pattern of a glass boat'  -  whether that's just a catch all phrase implying surface decoration only, or perhaps decoration AND the boat shape, I'm not sure.     Maybe Ed. Bolton were trying to be secretive in using CLASS 4 for a glass item - who knows.
But, problems come with the other Registration No. 23527 from March 1885.           Looking in the Representations book - for March 1885 - Reg. 23527 appears to have been allocated to a completely unrelated design on cloth material - see attached picture.                       It's possible that 23527 - as applied to Ed. Bolton's boat - may not be from the usual sequence of Reg. Nos., and may be from another series and unrelated to Design Registration, but it appears a coincidence that, numerically, 23527 occurs in the same year as 39414, and is the sort of No. we'd expect from that period.                         Unfortunately, I couldn't find a Register entry for 23527 - though that may have simply provided a Registrant's details for the cloth design with that No., and I'm still puzzled quite why the time lapse between these two Registrations, if indeed they apply to the same item (the boat).

So, stumped  -  may go back another time and ask for help.                 

P.S.     For what it's worth both Ray Slack and Jenny Thompson omit 23527 from their lists of CLASS III Registered Designs Nos.  -  this may have been commented on before and maybe I missed seeing it or perhaps not mentioned previously.     Both authors would have used the Registers for extracting number sequence - by far the quickest method of compiling their lists, though not without it's pitfalls.

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: NevB on August 14, 2021, 09:05:45 AM

Great work Paul! The RD system is brilliant for identification when it works correctly but in this case it's a real mystery. Perhaps it will be solved one day.

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: LinzC on August 14, 2021, 06:00:09 PM

Isn't that bizarre.  ??? I thought cloth patterns were filed separately under textiles.

Title: Re: Edward Bolton 'Grace Darling' boat flower holder Reg. 23527 & 39414 - 1885.
Post by: Paul S. on August 14, 2021, 08:51:45 PM

Hi - I think the answer to your question is that when the diamond lozenge period ended in January 1884, the practice of providing each CLASS with its own separate series of consecutive Reg. Nos., and with each CLASS given its own separate Representation books, ceased, and thereafter almost all CLASSES were lumped together, starting February 1884  -  which includes the Ed. Bolton 'boat' Regs., since they occur in 1885.        After early 1884, all CLASSES are all together in the same book (along with the glass), and the Reg. Nos. simply run consecutively no matter what the material.
I hope I have that right  -  have a look at sub section heading 10 in the link I provided, several posts back,  but do shout if you disagree.