Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: bat20 on September 19, 2021, 12:31:16 PM
-
Hi , this bowl is 2” high with a few air bubbles and small white inclusions, there is a few spots of wear along the foot where it sits.It has a small roughly polished pontil and a bit of the broken pontil remaining, finally it’s fairly thick .Any thoughts on use and age ? Thanks .
-
I'm pretty sure it's a late Georgian salt probably early 19th Century. A nice piece ;D
-
you may well be correct Nev - what in particular suggests this is 1800 - 1830? ;D
-
The shape and the appearance of the glass and also the small ground pontil similar to wine glasses of that time. There are some similar ones online. It may even be a bit earlier.
-
That’s the area I was thinking and perhaps later 18th ,there is a lot of tooling marks which I should have mentioned . I’ve found one one on line described as a salt with a firm dating of 1810,but how they can be so exact always surprises me ?!, perhaps the foot shape.
-
hmmm - I remain to be convinced. ;D I usually associate wide shallow ground pontil depressions with the first quarter of the C19, not small depressions, and tooling marks can be found on much glass up until machine work in the C20. I'd also be very wary of on-line dated attributions unless supported with v.g. provenance - I always remember one seller who added to his sales text - "18th or possibly C19 - you make up your own mind."
If you look at Wilkinson, Fig. 236 - he shows ten salts dating from c. 1730 - 1880, none of which look anything like this one. It's not that I'm saying this can't be the date Nev suggests, but that the features mentioned might be almost anywhere in the C19.
The apparent small amount of wear would seem unusual for a piece of basic utility table ware that was 200 years old, or more.
-
There are spots of wear which are well worn which maybe a better way of putting it, and white seed li
ke inclusions always pushes me back a bit in time, it could easily not be a salt though ?!.
-
Here’s the link I found , you have to scroll down a bit ,I don’t know much about them though .
https://legacyantiques.co.uk/glass/19th-century-glass/tableware/salts.html
-
Bat20, yes it has quite a bit of wear on a small contact area. It's difficult to see but the pontil appears to be less than 1/2" across and I think this could date it to around 1800 but maybe as late as 1850. It's density also might help date it, P.7 of this post is about that,
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,10321.0.html
I think neilh says that a density around 3.2gms./cm3 or above will date a piece to pre 1840. My gut feeling is it's earlier.
-
I’m with Paul on this. I wouldn’t be able to say it definitely wasn’t that old but it has the look of some much more modern stuff to me. I would wonder if that sort of applied foot was right and wouldn’t they normally be cut? For some reason I don’t like the look of the bubble. I have a few vintage bowls that have enough wear to make them Georgian :) Is there any reason to rule out vintage rather than antique?
-
I haven’t seen any vintage glass with all the the mentioned characteristics of this little bowl ?,unless it has been made to pass as older than it is and then I can’t see the profit in doing so.
-
I’ve got vintage glass with white inclusions, some quite large. Paul comments on the tool marks and I don’t really think the base wear proves anything other than its worn and wasn’t made yesterday?
Not that there’s anything wrong with it but it doesn’t strike me as an heirloom type object to be handed down and treasured and wrapped in tissue but more something utilitarian that was kept to be used (assuming it’s 200 odd years old).
Has it got much wear other than on the base? I would expect there to be plenty of nicks and scratches on the outside, not just the base. If it was glass for the table such as a salt, I think I there to be wear on the rim, from being stored upside down when not in use. Also probably scratches and staining or dullness on the inside?
-
Ok Ekimp , always good to get other people’s views on what’s worth being interested in or not.
-
Open Salts have a wide opening to get to the salt I don’t think this is a salt, but maybe a “whale oil lamp base” where a small tin drop in burner would sit in the top dangling a small wick underneath. Especially if the bowl is weighty for stability.
Cheers Mike
-
I don't think we yet know the diameter of the opening - though agree it probably isn't large in comparison with the size of the body. However, taking into account the foot, and overall thickness of glass, then together they must remove quite a bit of the total height of 2 inches. Would this leave the sort of capacity adequate for a lamp base? I've not a clue, I don't recall seeing whale oil lamps before - do you have an example you can show Mike?
-
There’s lots or variations in size and shape. I presume the small ones for personal use. But oil would have been a luxury in those days.
-
thanks - looks to be a good general match for shape at least - I can imagine a few of them might have ended up being used as salts.
-
Thanks TWS !that looks like a more than promising lead to me and something I haven’t come across before , very interesting thanks again.
-
forgot to ask Mike - assuming this is what you are suggesting, then what sort of date might it be?
-
Ok Ekimp , always good to get other people’s views on what’s worth being interested in or not.
I would hope no one would presume to tell anyone else what was ‘worth being interested in’.
Here is a vase I got recently which I believe is Stevens and Williams c1930/40. You can see one of the white inclusions. The foot also looks similar in profile, pontil scar and wear.
As I said, I’m not saying your bowl isn’t antique, just that the features you describe that give it 200 years of age can equally be found on many vintage items.
-
Please don’t get hung up on this, This is my hobby and over the few years I’ve being looking at glass I have picked up a small bit of knowledge and felt this piece may have a bit of age with all the things I’ve mentioned about it combined and just posted it to get some thoughts and feelings from others. Thanks for your feed back and I do take your thoughts seriously.
-
In comparison with some of the folk whose comments have graced these pages, bat20 is always courteous and polite - but despite his comments IMHO I'd suggest that it is worth pursuing provenance/attribution/age and use, particularly with an item that we don't see everyday - though whether this piece is categorically a whale oil lamp base is perhaps not yet proven? I don't think we're getting too hung up about about this one, so far, and I'm all for pursuing more info - therein lays half the fun - and I can see why this piece has given rise for speculation on age. Anyone who has dabbled in this hobby has goofed at some time or another - it's embarrassing to say the least when you get proven wrong - this one may be late C18 to early C19 but equally could be late C19, it really isn't an easy thing to pigeon hole with accuracy.
For me too glass is just a hobby - to go with probably half a dozen other collecting interests - though must say some of us can be a lot more passionate than others.
if we can nail something down and provide age and use then at least we're helping those who come after us.
copies have been the bane of glass collector's lives for three hundred years - and life doesn't become much easier just because a piece isn't a copy of a well known shape or design from a given period - in fact it can be the opposite as with a piece like this, where it's an obscure utility item that would be unlikely to get the copy treatment. We all have blind spots in the world of glass, mine are whale oil lamps, coloured glass and very expensive glass.
-
Well said Paul, most of my little knowledge has come from getting things wrong so I’m always happy to do so, people respond more readily.I remember The Old Glass man saying he’s had old glass with no wear or inclusions which adds even more to the idea of handling as much glass as you can to get a feel, I guess having the pice in hand is a great advantage .