Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on September 27, 2021, 11:34:07 AM
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I'm curious. I've read through all the lengthy threads on here and been doing some research.
This links to an item on Scottish Glass which is already sold so I hope that's ok?
There are experts on that site so it feels a bit odd querying it but I do have a good reason (research).
I'm not sure this bowl is Alexandrite. Anyone like to chip in?
I might have thought it was New England Glass Amberina. From what I've seen/read it did come with a fuchsia to amber colourway as well as the red to amber I automatically think of when I hear Amberina.
I've read up on New England Glass Company Amberina (invented by Joseph Locke) and I think 'some' of it was marked but I don't think I've read that it was always marked. From what I can make out NEGC became Libbey and they also produced Amberina but they marked their pieces.
Example here of New England Glass company Amberina bowl :
http://www.glassclub.org/amberina.jpg
This piece isn't marked presumably:
https://scottishantiques.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=18690
Two similar bowls are on ebay:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253187699067?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338722076&toolid=10001
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Hi - when I hit on the glassclub link I get - Forbidden - you don't have permission to access this information. Anyone else have this problem?
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should appear on this link of thumbnails then, third row down?
http://www.glassclub.org/thumb2.htm
There are two items with a similar colourway here - both marked Libbey so later examples than New England Glass Co examples:
https://brunkauctions.com/lot/two-libbey-amberina-glass-bud-vases-4064455
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thanks - all now o.k. - so now we know the origin of the handkerchief vase. Alexandrite not something I can offer first hand knowledge of at all - other than to say that the ten pieces of Webb's Alexandrite sold at Christie's - 1997/98 - ex the Michael Parkington collection - seem to have varied in the intensity of re-struck colour - this may have simply been the result of differences in re-striking (twice apparently with Alexandrite) or simply varying photographic issues. The date of manufacture of the handkerchief bowl here and the Parkington pieces is the same - c. 1900. Likewise the single piece shown in Hajdamach, which has that violet/blue colour - and it's this latter appearance that seems to be the hallmark of Alexandrite.
It would help with special pieces if there was some form of provenance offered as to origin.
Might help if you can be more precise and say exactly where you consider the bowl in the link differs from, say, Hajdamach and Parkington or why you have issues - I too feel uncertain about the linked bowl when compared to Hajdamach and Parkington.
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Would agree not Webb alexandrite, at least going by the description, it does not meet the criteria. Not sure it would qualify as dichroic either.
For anyone who wants to see some Webb alexandrite there are several examples in this thread: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,51070.0.html
There may be experts associated with SA but they are prone to at best wishful thinking, they have a couple of contemporary Chinese glass items with one being offered as vintage Murano. I could only be bothered to check under two of their categories, there may be more.
John
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Thanks John.
Paul, the Scottish Glass link shows a bowl with undulating loosely crimped rim that grades fuchsia pink at top to amber at bottom.
I don't even with careful squinting, see any violet or blue which I do see in all the Webb Alexandrite pieces that come up on google search if you put Webb Alexandrite glass in google search and then click on images. That bowl stands out as being completely different.
I also don't necessarily associate that shape with Thomas Webb. I know though it's a kind of catch all 'Victorian' shape and that pincering and crimping rims was in vogue then, so it's not specifically the shape that put me off.
On ebay however I also see a pair of bowls the same shape as that one on Scottish Glass, also with pink to amber grading, and described as New England Glass Company Amberina.
I don't know for sure that the ebay seller has the correct identification either but if they were Libbey I think they would be marked.
I think SOME New England Glass Company amberina was marked. The seller doesn't mention a mark so I'm assuming they are unmarked.
I'm asking because I'm researching a bowl I have in this colourway. It's not this shape. It does have a shape I might associate with Thomas Webb but haven't been able to. I have however been able to associate it partly with Stevens and Williams so therefore I thought it could well be a Thomas Webb shape as well.
I think Mount Washington and then Pairpoint also made 'Amberina' glass however I can't see any that appears in this fuschia pink to amber so I've discounted them just for the moment.
Date wise I'm sure I read on here that the patent for Locke's New England Glass Company Amberina and Thomas Webb Alexandrite was only days apart, with possibly Webb getting there first. 1886 if I recall correctly?
I remember reading it because I wondered about and had searched for a link between Joseph Locke and Thomas Webb Glass. (meaning I wondered if Locke had first alerted Webb to the reheating process and gold recipe and then moved to the States and took the process with him to New England Glass company where they launched Amberina (invented by Locke apparently. This is what I read, not that I have definitive proof of that).) So far I've not found a link though.
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There is some interesting information here on
https://www.glassencyclopedia.com/amberinaglass.html
1) New England Glass Co. Amberina (made from 1883 to the late 1890s - presume this means it covers the glass made by what became known as Libbey in 1888 as well). Says these had a specially made label.
2) and on the follow-on Amberina made at Libbey (Toledo, Ohio) -( New England Glass Co moved to Ohio in 1888 and changed name)
3) Libbey resurrected Amberina for a short time from 1917 and it says these were acid etched marked 'Amberina' and 'Libbey'.
3) the patent dispute with Mount Washington on them producing their version of 'Amberina' in the early 1880s stopping in 1886 after the dispute.
4) Hobbs, Brockunier & Co Amberina made under licence from Libbey/New England Glass (no dates so possibly straddled both company periods?) most was pressed rather than blown.
So, I'm leaning towards my piece and these unmarked pieces being by New England Glass Co. c1883-1888 date wise.
https://www.glassencyclopedia.com/amberinaglass.html
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If it's Webb Alexandrite, it will glow bright green under UV, as it's uranium glass based. Other Alexandrites don't.
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Thanks Christine. I had thought that from previous reading so it's good to have that confirmed. I'm waiting for my new piece to arrive so can't check it yet. Quite interested to see how it compares to my definite Webb Alexandrite vase colour wise as well.
I did wonder about the SG piece though and whether they'd checked it.
m
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Date wise I'm sure I read on here that the patent for Locke's New England Glass Company Amberina and Thomas Webb Alexandrite was only days apart, with possibly Webb getting there first. 1886 if I recall correctly?
I remember reading it because I wondered about and had searched for a link between Joseph Locke and Thomas Webb Glass. (meaning I wondered if Locke had first alerted Webb to the reheating process and gold recipe and then moved to the States and took the process with him to New England Glass company where they launched Amberina (invented by Locke apparently. This is what I read, not that I have definitive proof of that).) So far I've not found a link though.
On checking again it seems the Amberina was patented in 1883 just to correct my date memory above. I've not double checked that date of the Alexandrite yet but I'm pretty sure it was days/weeks apart in date of being patented to the Amberina from memory.
Oddly, I've been trying to see if there was any connection between Locke (inventor of heat reactive colloidal gold Amberina reheated to get the amber to red gradation) and Thomas Webb (heat reactive colloidal gold Alexandrite twice reheated for the colours amber, pink, blue, purple with a fine brown rim).
In the book English Cameo Glass, The Corning Museum of Glass page 27 it says
'Locke left Richardson's in 1879 and
worked successively for Philip Pargeter's
Red House Glass Works and another
local firm, Webb 8c Corbett. In 1882,
however, he emigrated to the United
States, where he became an influential
figure at the New England Glass Company of East Cambridge, Massachusetts'
I'm confused. It says in this link that Thomas Webb and Corbett was set up in 1897. Also says it was a completely different company to Thomas Webb and Sons.
https://www.glassencyclopedia.com/Webbcorbettglass.html
So which Webb & Corbett is the Corning Book referring to? If Locke emigrated in 1882 he couldn't have worked for Thomas Webb & Corbett which set up according to that link, in 1897.
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New England Glass Co. Amberina marked with paper label [ sticker ]. A facsimile taken from actual label. Oval paper, wording within printed oval, red ink.To my knowledge this is the only type of mark used. Reading top to bottom NEGW / AMBERINA / PAT' D / JULY 24. 1883
Marked MT. Washington examples also a paper label,. I have not seen an actual label. Recorded examples include the word " Rose Amber", their trade name for Amberina.
Libbey pieces c. 1917 marked with etched Libbey mark and Amberina etched mark. Recorded examples with just Libbey mark. Probably separate stamps/stencils.
Rare examples cut in the "RUSSIAN " pattern attributed to NEG co.
Hobbs, Brockunier & Company granted license in February,1886 for pressed version.
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Thank you Cagney! Really appreciate that information.
I've been doing some reading and looking at my new piece of glass I'm still wondering what exactly it is and who might have made it.
I'm sure it is old. I think it's been heat treated to achieve the bright pink fade on it but cannot be sure it hasn't been carefully cased over paler glass for example.
It's definitely not Webb Alexandrite glass and it doesn't fluoresce green under UV although the paler glass glows orange - something I associate with Saint Louis glass oddly but I definitely don't associate this shape with French glass. Rather, I associate it with English or possibly American glass.
However ... the paler glass at the bottom fade is very pale, almost like a peachy/apricot pale clear glass. That has confused me. Most of the 'amberina - i.e. heat treated gold colloidal' glass I'm looking at seems to be a slightly darker version of amber at the bottom rather than this very pale peachy almost clear glass.
It is lead I think - rings like a bell. Has a beautifully polished pontil mark. Has a hand crimped rim in a castellated version shape. I am sure it's a late Victorian piece.
I'll post some photographs later if I can get a good light and a good representation of the colour, so that might be helpful.
Many thanks again.
m
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This is the palest pink and pale amber glass marked Libbey piece I could find. I think my bowl is slightly paler than this even when I copy and paste comparison pics. Hard to tell as mine only has the very pale straw colour at the very bottom (so no stem which is thicker or double glass effect for example) and has a lot of fuchsia pink on it:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/4802705_1200-libbey-amberina-rib-optic-3035-footed-sugar-bowl
Pics coming - just needing to charge camera battery.
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You are almost where you probably want to be. Go directly to jefferysevans.com
Past auctions search function will reveal over 700 results for Amberina.
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Hope I've resized these to fit.
The fuchsia colour is a good match. It's lead glass I think. The glass quality and pontil mark are right.
Is it Amberina or something else though as the pale amber is very pale and there is no match I can find on the shape at all.
If it's something else it's not Webb Alexandrite. I do believe it's heat treated to get the colour. Where could it be from?
These were taken in daylight and I think they are a good representation of the true colours.
It was bought because I 'needed' ;D a piece of bright pink glass for decorating purposes. It does that job beautifully so I don't care who made it. However I am curious to know because of the colour and the way it's been made obviously. I think it's a quality and old piece.
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one more pic
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Rubina comes to mind. Although the term is almost always associated with a flashed or cased glass some of it looks quite convincing as a homogeneous glass.The color on your piece is exceptional and also brings to mind some of Mosers glass shading usually amethyst, ruby or green to clear.
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I suppose it could br a question of: Is it an off amber? or an off clear?
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Yes I'd been looking up Rubina just in case.
I'll do some more searching.
I thought I'd achieved a good colour representation but just to clarify there is no amethyst in this at all. It really is all bright bright fuchsia pink.
However the camera is picking up a darker shade as a fine line around the rim. (I've attached the pontil picture again where I think it can be seen). So I've held it up to bright daylight at a window and I think there is a very fine very thin darker almost red line around the rim. I wonder if it has been finely cased without it showing really on the fade. That said, Webb Alexandrite has a dark fine line (chocolate) around the rim so the fact this has a darker fine rim doesn't definitively mean it was cased rather than heat-treated.
I understand your question about whether it is an 'off clear' or an 'off amber'. I had exactly that question in my head :) Having looked at lots of rubina (not rubina verde) glass it appears absolutely clear on the clear part and I think this is an 'off amber'.
The base glass at the bottom is definitely peachy and not clear. I just wonder if this is because it's been reheated and because it has colloidal gold in the mix? Just pondering on how the maker would have achieved a bright fuchsia pink without it being colloidal glass and reheated. I think that's the only way probably but I am certainly no chemist and neither a glassmaker so that's just my thoughts.
I really don't think it's Bohemian glass. I think it's likely to be English or American but never say never (bought in the UK). I am also completely sure it is old glass and I think lead glass. So it's come from a good maker but who is the question :)
m
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quite similar pale amber on the right hand one of these tumblers:
https://i.etsystatic.com/13121838/r/il/8d058e/2591646307/il_794xN.2591646307_6eet.jpg
https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/861146830/c1890-american-amberina-stemless-wine?gpla=1&gao=1&&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_uk_en_gb_a-home_and_living-kitchen_and_dining-drink_and_barware-drinkware-pitchers_and_drinking_sets&utm_custom1=_k_CjwKCAjwhuCKBhADEiwA1HegOe_EErsUj5aL078K9PlCrISrRdZAuFb9wUy3lyfLQCjaf-g7Ac9N9BoCOXsQAvD_BwE_k_&utm_content=go_12604174069_122593705569_508773061618_pla-498657396152_c__861146830engb_469718648&utm_custom2=12604174069&gclid=CjwKCAjwhuCKBhADEiwA1HegOe_EErsUj5aL078K9PlCrISrRdZAuFb9wUy3lyfLQCjaf-g7Ac9N9BoCOXsQAvD_BwE
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There are also these two ?underplates? (and I have no idea whether the maker identification is correct btw)
one very pale
https://fineart.ha.com/itm/glass/two-american-fuchsia-amberina-glass-platesnew-england-glass-co-c1890each-with-gently-undulating-rims-and-unmatching/a/614-30791.s
The one on the left would be a good match for my bowl actually :)
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Your bowl certainly looks colloidal in its nature and "struck'. Lighting can have a dramatic effect sometimes as to photographs. That said, a lot of Libby pieces seem to be much paler amber than the NEG product and the rich fuchsia color more common. Carl U. Fauster's book " LIBBEY GLASS SINCE1818. Pctorial History & Collecter's Guide " copyright 1979 Len Beach Press states that the 1917 version used the same secret batch formula originally developed by Joseph Locke. Also in this book is a color photograph of a vase from the 1917 series that looks to have two medium amber handles. His description is a different matter altogether. " HANDLED VASE- One of the few handled items in the 1917 Amberina series. Handles are so light a straw color that the seem almost clear glass "
Certainly there where differences in the furnaces used. NEG furnace old coal fired. Libbey's newer gas fired. Possibly mattered how much the glass had cooled before being "struck".
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Thank you for the extra information Cagney. I appreciate you taking the time to help as I have absolutely zero, nothing on American glass. I've read online as much as possible but that description you've quoted re the paleness of the amber really helps.
The different furnaces is interesting. The glass on this bowl just looks old and has some tiny specks and a stone in. Would that happen with a gas furnace? I don't really know how much cleaner or not they were or whether they had an impact on the quality of the glass.
Another question - they moved to Toledo in 1888 and continued production of Amberina and recorded between 1889 and 1891 apparently 200 batches (New England Pomona (1885–1887): Lead Analysis as a Study Tool, Beatrice Scheer Smith). Would they have been using gas furnaces at that point or was it later in the Libbey history when they were used.
I suppose I'm looking at the shape and the glass quality re the striations and seeds/stone and just thinking it feels like Victorian glass, and also I can't see this being particularly 'fashionable' in 1917 when they 're-issued'.
The only other question about Libbey v NEG is that if it were Libbey wouldn't it have been marked, as opposed to NEG which would have just had a label? Or was it only the re-issued 1917 Amberina that was marked Libbey?
Would the Amberina they produced between 1889 and 1891 not have been marked?
Having read about their Pomona glass recipes and the research that has gone into the lead quantity for that (New England Pomona (1885–1887): Lead Analysis as a Study Tool, Beatrice Scheer Smith) and taking into consideration the cost of experimenting with colloidal gold I can quite see that they would just replicate the original recipe given they knew it worked.
I still have the issue of not being able to match the shape or the hand crimped bowl rim though even if it is accepted a) that the very pale peachy amber base is right and b) that it is heat treated fuchsia.
I took my photos in daylight because the ones I've seen online show how the fuchsia looks under lighting but in daylight all glass looks a little different.
This is a fairly good/representative one under led lighting.
Yikes, so many questions and thoughts :) apologies.
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I agree your bowl has all the attributes of being a late victorian design. Age wise as well. I have had probably 5 or 10 lead glass pieces that would not pass any real quality control even by 19th century standards. Maybe factory seconds or take home pieces. Still cherished over the years and survived to be acquired by me.
As to furnaces and/or "stones" in glass. A coal furnace I think would be much harder to maintain a steady temperature in vs a gas fired furnace. " stones" are What? My conclusion is they are particles of the clay pot that fly off into the glass mixture and are evidence of the pot degrading. Of course they would not melt. I have seen stones in marked Heisey glass from 1st quarter of 20th century. I believe it is more common in lead glass than the soda lime, discounting the common bottle glass that seems to run the whole gamut of quality.
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Totally missed your question concerning NEG's markings after Libbey took control. But. I do have an answer. From the previously mentioned book "LIBBEY GLASS ". An actual photo copy of an advertisement in the CROCKERT AND GLASS JOURNAL. Description reads as follows. " This advertisement in CROCKERY AND GLASS JOURNAL April 3, 1884 confirms that about the time Edward Drummond Libbey took control of the New England Glass Works in 1883, the factory's stock of Amberina Art Glass was offered at " Greatly Reduced Prices " in order to move the inventory and avoid bankruptcy. Soon after, Mr. Libbey, himself, sold his factory's warehouse stock of Amberina to Tiffany,s in New York.
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Oh thank you. I'd read something about Tiffany's as well but couldn't remember when/what.
I'm very grateful for your help :)
So the Tiffany sale was in 1884. In the Pomona report I quoted above it seems to imply(from my reading) that in 1887 there were 150 batches of 'ruby (Amberina)' produced (their information from the NEG records) so they were still producing it then.
I'm wondering if it was only the re-issued stuff (1917) that was marked.
I can't think of anyone else who might have made this particular fuchsia coloured graduated glass to be honest which is why I think it's from them. Not that this means much but I've never seen this colour on anything else not even 'rubina verde' type stuff which I do see here.
However what's causing me pause for thought is the rim shape and also that, as you mentioned, the earlier stuff seems to appear to be less fuchsia and more red.
We may have got over the pale amber colour being a problem but I need to try and find an example of NEG glass with the crimped castellated style rim I think :)
Nice to have something new to read about and it gives me something to research.
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There is no documentation of any marked Libbey glass prior to a few specific souvenir pieces made for/ at Worlds Columbian Exposition / Chicago Worlds Fair in 1893. Libbey did adopt a trade mark in 1892 that incorporated an eagle used in advertisements and this is the mark on the specific souvenir items, Written/ stamped in red. The iconic etched 'LIBBEY"over a sword was adopted in 1896 later changed to simply 'LIBBEY" in 1906.
I would guess that Libbey did produce more Amberina after 1884 if it was still a good seller.
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M, I'm not convinced your bowl has any amber, rather that it is off colourless. The pink may also have been created by the bubble blowing technique rather than heat striking. Are there any tiny holes in the pink when you hold it to the light? It could well be English but perhaps by one of the lesser makers, as the crimps are a bit irregular. Pretty bowl though.
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No tiny holes (you mean like we sometimes see in the say orange casing in Bohemian glass?) but I still have an open mind on whether it's heatstruck or cased. It's a bit of a weird one and I can't compare the fade to my Alexandrite as it's a miniature and also textured so it's just too difficult to see.
It does look very like the Scottish Glass bowl though close up.
The quality seems good overall because I think it's lead glass and it has a beautifully polished pontil mark and hand pulled rim. But ... the glass is seedy and the odd tiny bubbles and has a stone in. So it looks old but could be from a 'lesser' maker. I mean the shape wouldn't put it at much earlier than 1870s would it so it can't be that much older?
The glass colour could just be a not very good batch with a weird peach tint to it.
Re the fuchsia pink - I think given it's age it must have been created with colloidal gold?
Could the fuchsia have been created by using a gold ruby casing? It doesn't compare to any of the gold ruby cased pieces (both pink and red) I currently have - about 10 pieces including from around that time period or earlier. It's an unusual colour. Would that indicate it's been achieved by heat striking?
The fade and pink colour effect honestly doesn't look any different to the glass on this link which is marked Libbey (except the pale glass is much paler almost clear rather than amber)
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/46454986_libbey-amberina-compote-optic-ribbed-footed-form-with
This one is very pale (and is two layer because you're looking through from front to back) and also has what I think a tiny bubbles in the neck up near the pink:
https://www.morphyauctions.com/jamesdjulia/item/lot-1039-libbey-amberina-vase-64507/
Are these really New England Glass? - if they are, then the amber is very pale and the glass has teeny bubbles etc:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/181597826039?hash=item2a4812ebf7:g:v2gAAOSwR0JUPIHy
New England Pomona glass with crimped castellated rim (not the same as mine though):
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/5-new-england-pomona-glass-items-222-c-9cf430395c
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Actually forget the last link to Pomona. I'm not sure that it's actually New England glass.
m
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Just out of interest I'm posting a link to this explanation (from JS Measell) of how rubina verde can be made (bubble method) so I can find it again if I want to read more about it :)
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,36921.msg201560.html#msg201560
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This vase is a very good match for the clear and the fuchsia and the graduation of the colour:
https://www.blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_PAC151
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=71155.0;attach=244641;image