Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: mhgcgolfclub on October 19, 2021, 05:56:11 PM
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Bought at car boot just for the GMB as it looked quite interesting for only 20p. It has a couple of chips to rim.
At first I thought it was pressed glass with some cutting , but I think it's all cut.
I would think late Victorian.
Frosted bowl with some cutting, faceted stem and a 32 star cut base.
Heavy 464gm in weight
Height 5.25"
Diameter of bowl 3.20" and base just over 3.25"
Pictures are not my best sorry.
Thanks for looking
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Nice glass, thanks for buying and showing :)
The frosted finish looks to have used the method I describe for the frosted decanter in my topic here: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,70868.0.html and particularly the bowl I added in reply 19, which had cutting in the frosting and a 32 point star in the foot. In your glass it looks like there are similar horizontal striations from mechanically abrading the surface to achieve the matting/frosting, rather than from acid.
Shame about the chips, I wonder if the rim has already been ground down to remove old damage and it had a fire polished rim? Is it odd to finish the glass at the height of the apex of the ‘leaves’ so that there is the ripple in the rim from the cutting? Maybe aesthetically it might look better with a clear band at the top and be more comfortable for taking a sip, lips away from the cut decoration.
More naturalistic version of similar leaves on Keith’s jug here: https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,70337.msg391649.html
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agree, a good looking C19 piece Roy - I'd go more for c. 1850 - 1860 if pushed, when this frosted surface seems to have been quite the vogue. Have attached picture of a water jug with similar finish - I may well have posted this previously - with cutting showing a stylized floral type of decoration. Mine doesn't have a star cut underside - just an eight way fairly deep cut mitre pattern, strap handle and cut and beveled rim.
I've used a lens to look at the frosting and there is categorically nothing to suggest this was created using a surface abrasion i.e. there is a complete absence of direction lines, which suggest it's probably acid. Having seen similar surfaces created by sand blasting, am sure that isn't the case here - sand blasting usually leaves a noticeably granular appearance to the surface.
If you have a lens, try looking into the mitres - however good they are there should still be a faint impression remaining of the lines caused by the wheel.
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This frosted stuff is quite attractive. I wonder if your jug might actually be post 1890 Paul, as the ‘stylized floral type of decoration’ looks like the Intaglio technique developed by Northwood. http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,68028.msg378315.html
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you may well be correct re your suggestion of date - I just post the pictures ;D - it was just that I do know some frosted material i.e. shown by Mark West for example, is quoted as being c. 'The Great Exhibition' - so I jumped on the bandwagon. To be honest I really don't know.
I think there is a mine shaft of potential confusion here with the word intaglio - and perhaps it gets hijacked for other processes, since the word in its bare form simply means cut or carved into, and I think Anne (Mod.) has covered this before, and just about any kind of 'below the surface' decoration - where material is removed - is intaglio. Pressed/moulded glass excluded.
Just looked again at the jug and all of the cut decoration is created by means of the wheel, without leaving any matt or other finish. It's a clever looking piece of cutting - reminiscent of Kny when he was with Stuart - the glass surface is presented to the edge of the wheel, and the cut is - as you adequately described in your link - 90 degrees one side reducing to nothing at the other.
However, it wasn't the cutting that was of interest to me - rather it was the frosted finish - I'm sure not stippling or sand blasting, and likely not a surface abrasion as in unidirectional lines from the object being in a lathe.
These guys were clever - handcraft and necessity being the Mother of invention, makes for skilled craftsmen over a lifetime of manual work - do we think they might have used a resist of some sort? I could be wrong, but as far as my jug goes I'm really rather in favour of acid, but not lysergic. ;) Anyway thanks for your thoughts as always - much appreciated. :)
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Who knows :)
Completely agree re the term intaglio, it is unfortunate that Northwood didn’t pick a different name but I suppose as he invented the particular cutting technique as described in my link, then he could choose the name and we’re stuck with it. Perhaps his Intaglio should be just the one with the big ‘I’.
I have no idea if they would frost a surface then apply a handle but a jug couldn’t be turned on a lathe to frost the surface mechanically after - unless the operator was very very quick ;D
I’ve seen a frosted surface that was very uniform looking with no obvious scratching that I’ve been sure was abraded mechanically from observation of other clues, such as where the frosting stops. If they used acid with a resist then the frosting should finish at a sharp line whereas with the mechanical technique you should see a slightly feathered edge. Have to look very closely though. Very difficult to photograph such things. I was accepting your jug as being acid frosted...but it would be interesting to have a look with my loupe ;)
Had to google lysergic ;D
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Can I question the acid comment about it finishing in a sharp line please? Acid frosting doesn't always finish in a sharp line is my understanding as sometimes the acid seems to 'bleed' on the edges for want of a better description. Or at least that is what I've come to understand from my looking at French and Bohemian acid etched pieces ???
Also about sandblasting 'sand blasting usually leaves a noticeably granular appearance to the surface'
I know that was directed at 19th century pieces but I do have a piece that's Japanese that has been sand blasted and it's incredibly unbelievably smooth.
That said, I suppose it could be perceived as a 'granular' effect:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,51779.msg293620.html#msg293620
see also
https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/137705-japanese-made-cameo-glass-vase
I could be wrong, after all we all view things differently, but I'm just wary of making statements that might not pertain to all makers if you see what I mean.
m
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oh, I'm sure we all see what you mean m. :-*
Acid and lines - not sure I'm with you there ...... I had this feeling someone had said that looked at closely, some of the frosted finishes showed lines, and I was simply commenting that this effect wouldn't be the result of acid. Something about abrasion created whilst a piece was on a lathe giving rise to lines.
Most if not all the machine acid etched glass was coated with resist and the needle did its magic - then dipped - then the resist washed off.
Re sandblasting ............ I once had a couple of Sowerby drinking tumblers - c. late C19 from memory - and the result of sandblasting was a very granular and coarse finish. I was suggesting that in view of a probable similar date for my jug, then if that too been sandblasted - might you not see the same rather coarse finish?
Have to say I'm the least knowledgeable about causes of frosted finishes - other than the obvious acid work. I was having trouble with spinning something on a lathe and holding sandpaper or whatever to remove the shine - but that's likely an unfounded prejudice.
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Yes, I shouldn’t have made such a definite statement, I usually try and hedge by sticking in a few probablys or maybes ;D I was thinking of the items I’m sure are mechanically abraded where the frosting finishes with some fine scratches that feather out like the examples below. I don’t think there would be this finish to acid frosting but more likely to be some sort of more defined edge, even if it had bled under a resist (maybe) :)
My point on this has been that lots of “the obvious acid work” might actually not be, but I had been trying not to hijack another topic about frosting ;)
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Fabulous pics especially the bottom one. I would have suspected acid etching for the bottom one :-\
I might have to try and do some pics of those I have and see what they look like close up.
m
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Thanks :) I’ve used those photos before when trying to convince on this subject and they are ‘items I’m sure are mechanically abraded’....maybe not everyone else ;D
I would be very interested to see your examples if they were posted.
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What if acid is applied to the surface with a brush? Bet you would get lines then...
John
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But I suggested that many moon ago and was told the brush would dissolve :-\
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Just a question of finding the right material for bristles.
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They would’ve needed a time machine for that ;D
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See page 200 of the Grove Encyclopaedia of Materials for:
- Information on Acid etching and how it was done on plates (metal plates)
- The fact that acid could be applied using a brush or a feather
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Grove_Encyclopedia_of_Materials_and/mkJfbdTS--UC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=bohemian+acid+etched+glass+19th+century&pg=PA247&printsec=frontcover
Also just read a snippet information from the Rijksmuseum in one of their catalogue publications stating that Acid etching was widely used by mid 19th century for decorating fine table wear that was too thin for wheel engraving:
Glass in the Rijksmuseum Volume 1 page 383
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I would have thought anything of organic matter would have disappeared rather quickly, in the presence of acid. Perhaps the acid was diluted.
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Thanks for all the replies.
I would agree with Paul as to the age as it may explain the weight of the glass.
I have also tried to take some close up pictures of the frosting and cutting.
Thanks Roy
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I'd see that as acid etched after cutting :-X Anyone else see something different?
Just wondering if I need to re-evaluate my thoughts on the way some surfaces have been treated.
m
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quote from m .......................... "I'd see that as acid etched after cutting :-X" ...you may be correct m, but on face value you'd imagine that common sense would dictate it should have been the other way round. I see why you've made the comment though, after all the acid effect appears to be bleeding into the mitre. Perhaps the acid bite was deeper than we thought and the bleed shows how deep the bite went into the glass. ?
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I really don’t think those fine lines that I showed in reply 8 were from any brush, even if they’d had access to synthetics.
It would be interesting to read the acid etching piece in your link flying free, but it only lets me view up to page 72, coincidently B for Brushes (says synthetic fibres only introduced in late 1960s, til then different types of animal hair). I agree with Paul, I don’t think any organic brush is going to last long enough to be useful in an acid aggressive enough to etch glass.
Another point against brushing is that I’ve read that when in the acid baths for etching (probably talking about needle etched stuff) the item had to be agitated to move the acid around and the progress checked. I think if the acid was brushed on there might be an inconsistent finish due to lack of control of quantities and timings.
Thanks for the new images.
I don’t think it was acid etched after cutting as they would have had to paint resist into the cuts and I think it looks too neat for that, in places the resist wouldn’t have kept to the line so precisely. That bleeding into the mitre in the middle photo could also come from an abrasive reaching into the cut. The bleeding indicates frosting after cutting, but to me, the neatness of the line indicates it wasn’t acid...bringing me back to an abrasive.
The finish does look more acid etched in these photos but where the lighting is better in the original photos it looks more like from abrasive. It might be down to lighting as it is very difficult to capture in a photo. If I rotate the middle new photo 90 degrees (so it’s the right way up), I think I can see a (now) horizontal direction to the finish...but only just.
A good place to look for clues is where the finish transits from frosted to gloss - but without a bordering cut - often where the bowl meets the foot.
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Paul, yes you could be right about that. It just doesn't make sense at all to etch after cutting does it?
Ekimp I think looking at photos can distort and that makes it difficult to tell. However acid etching was used from the mid 1850s as presumably although dangerous and difficult it was quicker and easier to abrade large sections as opposed to mechanical abrasion.
Difficult.
m
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As I tend to play devils advocate I would point out that metals can be turned into fibres... Saying that they would not be porous and may well do a poor job in this context, they would not provide a good reservoir of acid.
Sure I read somewhere that acid fuming is possible too, would assume that would produce a very even finish.
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speaking of 'fuming' - cabinet makers used .880 ammonia to fume oak (it's the tannic acid it reacts with) - and depending on length of exposure it can make the wood turn almost black, but it's not really a method for delicate work - more a sort of blanket treatment. I know nothing about acid work on glass, but get a feeling there might be a similar situation here, unless of course it was possible to use a resist, though acid fumes are presumably more dangerous than just the liquid ?? Don't get the feeling glass workers in the Victorian period were given much thought re H. & S., and bearing in mind Wilkinson's problems using acid to remove grinding marks - which brought about his demise - it's a wonder that more of them weren't killed by acid fumes.
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Sure I read somewhere that acid fuming is possible too, would assume that would produce a very even finish.
There is a bit here describing the fuming process at the beginning of ‘Glass Embosing’ page 494. ‘...the fumes are of a very poisonous nature’ not very pleasant :)
The American stationer, volume 37, 1895, Relating to plate glass, talks about acid etching, fuming, and obscuring by hand grinding with emery powder.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0VJYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA496&dq=etch+glass+emery+powder&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiZ7-bY1-3zAhVLecAKHTyZB-44FBDoAXoECAMQAw#v=onepage&q=etch%20glass%20emery%20powder&f=false