Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: OX151 on October 23, 2021, 03:29:10 PM
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I think this might be by James Powell & Sons but not sure. Can anyone confirm maker? Thanks.
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very attractive - first look made me think of Stuart, athough you could be correct with W/Fs though presently can't see this particular pattern. When they were at Wealdstone, and somewhere around the late 1920s they decorated some optically moulded bowls with a finely threaded almost wavy like threading.
We have folk here who are good at W/Fs - fingers crossed they will look in.
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My gut wants to say Stuart
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agree definite Stuart vibes (the green colour and the wavy rim) but can I also throw in S&W?
There is this one which is being sold as S&W:
https://www.20thcenturyglass.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=275_280_305&products_id=4628
This one has been attributed to Stuart but I thought this decor could be S&W Fibrillose (for the colour of the trailing)
https://www.antiques.co.uk/antique/Late-19th-Century-Stourbridge-Trailed-Glass-Vase-Rd-No-36652-c1890
Although I mostly think of S&W green as being like this one (although again I'm unsure if this is definitely S&W):
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/stevens-and-williams-green-art-glass-bowl-130-c-13746fa9c6
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I feel slightly queasy - I saw an example of your third linked item on Thursday - and left it behind. :'( Must rush back on Monday morning.
But - as for the second linked item, there is something very adrift IMHO. Reg. 36652 - which would occur c. October 1885 - doesn't appear in either Slack or Thompson. However, Reg. 336502 dated 20th November 1900, was allocated to S. & W., and described by them - as m points out - as 'applied trailed veins of dark green glass as diagonals ...... to produce a rough herringbone effect.' Reynolds doesn't show an example - Gulliver reproduces a small b. & w. drawing which he has obviously copied from the original factory drawing now at TNA, Kew. It appears true that this Fibrillose dark green trailing was the subject of the protection in the S. & W. Registration 336502 - a Registration that appears to have nothing to do with Stuart.
Any Hardman & Price Regs. from 1846 - assumed to be textiles as quoted in the link - wouldn't of course show up in our usual list of CLASS III Registrations (for glass) - have to say I've no knowledge of Registrations being sold by a Registrant to another party - least of all c. half a century later - not impossible, but we'd need some provenance to substantiate that. Although this darkish green trailing is very 'Stuart' from the late C19, the errors in description are cause for concern - is that Rd. No. etched, or is it a Dremel job?
Anyway, coming back to the piece here, I'm still inclined to go with Stuart.
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OH! do go back and get the bowl Paul. I absolutely love these - the shape, there's something about that shape. It's very attractive.
I do think it's S&W.
The Fibrillose decor has always mystified me. I think it's entirely possible there were Bohemian makers doing a green trailed thing as well.
I've never worked out if Fibrillose is completely random messy, or more sparse than the examples I've seen and none of them look like a herringbone effect at all. So are they actually Fibrillose? Who knows?
I don't think that rd no is faked for what's it's worth. Maybe just an error in transcribing it? I think it's S&W anyway.
RE the original piece. Did Stuart have any other example of this 'broken' pull up trail though? I agree the rim and the shape and colour green look quite Stuart. However if we know that 'Fibrillose' vase is S&W then their green could also pertain to the vase in question I think.
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Just in case of any future confusion Paul, I think you accidentally wrote Reg. 336502 when discussing the Fibrillose vase I linked to that has a reg design number engraved on the bottom but you meant Reg. no 366502 . Just in case someone looks it up later.
But - as for the second linked item, there is something very adrift IMHO. Reg. 36652 - which would occur c. October 1885 - doesn't appear in either Slack or Thompson. However, Reg. 336502 dated 20th November 1900, was allocated to S. & W., and described by them - as m points out - as 'applied trailed veins of dark green glass as diagonals ...... to produce a rough herringbone effect.' Reynolds doesn't show an example - Gulliver reproduces a small b. & w. drawing which he has obviously copied from the original factory drawing now at TNA, Kew. It appears true that this Fibrillose dark green trailing was the subject of the protection in the S. & W. Registration 336502 - a Registration that appears to have nothing to do with Stuart.
Any Hardman & Price Regs. from 1846 - assumed to be textiles as quoted in the link - wouldn't of course show up in our usual list of CLASS III Registrations (for glass) - have to say I've no knowledge of Registrations being sold by a Registrant to another party - least of all c. half a century later - not impossible, but we'd need some provenance to substantiate that. Although this darkish green trailing is very 'Stuart' from the late C19, the errors in description are cause for concern - is that Rd. No. etched, or is it a Dremel job?
Anyway, coming back to the piece here, I'm still inclined to go with Stuart.
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seller has this mushroom posy vase as S&W. I don't know if it is but the decor is the same as OP's bowl
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313223925201
S&W were big fans of threading and trailing. I'm not so sure Stuart were in the same type of trailing as this?
However ... have to say the shape still feels very Stuart.
This IS a Stuart vase - adding it for the trail green colour comparison though I appreciate it's hard to compare colours online:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334051187686?hash=item4dc7009be6:g:HnwAAOSwQlVg02SW
OTOH - What is this then? The museum has it as James Powell - looks v similar to OPs bowl (It's a jug threaded on the bottom half)
https://barnsleymuseums.art.blog/2020/12/14/the-art-of-glass/
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apologies m - I copied from Reynolds, who has written 336502 - Thompson, Gulliver and Slack all show the No. correctly as 366502 - why did I pick the wrong author to quote (though he shows the correct date of Registration). So, if anyone has Reynolds book, you might care to change the Rd. No. for 'Fibrillose' to read 366502 - page 74 Appendix B.
As a matter of personal thought, I don't see this Registered Design as being remotely like herringbone - what I see is a random applied trailing without any recognizable pattern. The odd thing is that Reynolds says of this invention ......... "In 1901 J. S. Williams with John Northwood developed this interesting glass making technique ................ etc. " quite how that fits with the fact that the Company had already Registered Fibrillose the year before seems a bit odd.
Sorry, forgot to say that the bowl I've seen - matching your third linked item - is in clear and not green, unfortunately. This might work in my favour insofar as the rest of the public might not give it a second look :-\
W/Fs seem to have produced most of their threaded pieces - threading similar in fineness to the pieces here - in the 1930s, and they seem to have used at least half a dozen different greens at one time or another, so difficult to be precise on that issue. Trying to stay on topic for the OP, since I've digressed too much and coming back to the OPs bowl, it's the waisted shape of the bowl that give most problems when comparing to Jackson and the big book. Perhaps from a fashion point of view, the factory appear to have avoided such an outline shape during the time they were producing threading, and since attribution relies heavily on sourcing provenance from factory catalogues and books - and I can't find anything that matches this shape, then it looks to be a dead end for the time being. It might be worth OX151 contacting the MoL and requesting their help with this one.
The 'James Powell carafe c. 1884' in the Barnsley Museum is, we assume, id'd correctly, and the use of trailing by the factory goes back before that date, though it has to be said that the threading on the carafe is very much out of character for the period in question - most of the material produced at the date suggested were the opal colours, styles from antiquity, and the odd tear or prunt. The threading looks to have more in common with the C20, but we won't argue with the museum. ;) It's always a problem with high end pieces when individuals or museums omit to provide provenance for their attributions - we tend to take museums at their word, but it would be very helpful to us collectors and wouldn't take any time at all, just to confirm the source of the attribution by providing a little bit of text.
Perhaps Anne (Mod.) might correct my error on the Fibrillose Rd. No. some time - thanks. :)
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hmm, Museums sometimes get things wrong though and anyway, with no pattern no ids given as research sources, it's important to have another look at the id's on some items in museum collections :-[ In addition to which, there is still no shape to match to a WF id yet for the OPs bowl.
The wavy rim of the bowl is characteristic of Stuart. However I only have about 30 Stuart id'd pieces in resources to search for comparisons and they are all from about 1907 ish. None have that number of waves on the rim, none are the same shape as OPs piece and none are in that decor.
I think S&W is a possible contender still for both OPs piece and the jug in the museum :-X
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The shape almost suggests a lid. How big is it?
John
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M suggests this is S&W green https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/stevens-and-williams-green-art-glass-bowl-130-c-13746fa9c6 but I always think of it as Stuart green
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ooh that's interesting Christine. So I could have been incorrectly looking at these pieces for years and thinking they were S&W :-[
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This is a Keith Murray green vase sold at Bonhams apparently marked. I think this is why I've been thinking of that green as S&W.
However, looking at the shape of that dark green vase Christine linked to again, it's another of the squat form that Stuart were so fond of as well.
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/11795/lot/32/
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Ah no, it's because I'd seen this one (Scroll down the page and the green bowl appears on the right hand side) and an accompanying piece of info and matching picture that says it comes from:
'ca. 1910 - Illustration at right taken from the Illustrated Catalogue of English Table Glass manufactured by Stevens & Williams, ca. 1907-1920'
I don't have that Illustrated Catalogue to see if an actual pattern number or original source id was available to back that up unfortunately. But I think that's why I've always thought of them as S&W ???
https://sites.google.com/a/bohemianglassandmore.com/bohemian-glass-and-more/miscellaneous-identified-pieces
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Looking it up, the Illustrated Catalogue of English Table Glass appears to have been produced by Stevens and Williams. Does anyone know if this is correct or actually have this catalogue please?
https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Illustrated_Catalogue_of_English_Table_G.html?id=zMefzgEACAAJ&redir_esc=y
'Title Illustrated Catalogue of English Table Glass Services
Publisher Stevens & Williams, Limited, 1930
Length 22 pages'
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nope - sorry - possibly the sort of thing Nigel might have owned. Coming back, m, to the seller of the 'Fibrillose' item in your much earlier link, which carries the wrong Rd. No. on its bottom - despite the substantial amount of text by the seller as to Registration data etc. etc., would seem there wasn't any first hand research. Had that been the case then I'm sure the 'wrong number' issue would have surfaced very quickly, and IMHO it would appear to be very rare that a substantial mistake such as this occurs.
P.S. your 'catalogue isn't coming up anywhere on screen searches - a tad rare I'd suggest.
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Coming back, m, to the seller of the 'Fibrillose' item in your much earlier link, which carries the wrong Rd. No. on its bottom - despite the substantial amount of text by the seller as to Registration data etc. etc., would seem there wasn't any first hand research. Had that been the case then I'm sure the 'wrong number' issue would have surfaced very quickly, and IMHO it would appear to be very rare that a substantial mistake such as this occurs.
P.S. your 'catalogue isn't coming up anywhere on screen searches - a tad rare I'd suggest.
Hi Paul, you have seen and looked at far more registered glass and designs than I will ever hope to so I take your point that this would be considered rare.
I did look up the S&W Fibrilose (note - Charles Hajdamach in 20th Century British Glass spells it with one L although I used two Ls in my original writing of the decor name) and there is a an example in plate 36 page 24. The decor looks like the bowl with the wrong RD number. So even if this were a later addition and added incorrectly, I'm still of the opinion that bowl is an S&W Fibrilose piece.
The Fibrilose green trailing decoration can also be seen on many Silveria pieces as well interestingly.
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With regard to the dark green bowl I always think of as S&W and accompanying picture as id source in that link I gave:- that Illustrated Catalogue was produced, it appears, by Stevens and Williams in 1930. I have to think that had they inadvertently included a bowl in their own catalogue that was from another maker, it was close enough in time frame for the other maker to step up and say 'hey, that's our bowl'. Both Stuart and S&W were very much alive and active at that time. Stranger things have happened though!
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hmm - so it would seem that this nouveau style green bowl (with eight points to the rim and with wavy moulded lines - linked by you earlier and more recently by Christine - is definitely S. & W. and not Stuart, though like you m for some reason I had been more inclined to think Stuart. I've looked through Reynolds Appendix B at his list of S. & W. Registered designs 1884 - 1928, and this bowl design appears not to have been Registered with the BoT. The bowl is strikingly art nouveau in appearance and most unusual that such a design should appear at a time when deco fashion was at it's height.
Again, I copied Reynolds spelling for Fibrillose, so if two ells are wrong then it's his fault and not mine ;D The other oddity IMHO, is that Reynolds heads up his list of all the S. & W. Registrations - 1884 to 1928 - as being CLASS IV. We all know glass is CLASS III, though occasionally the odd item is recorded as IV, but why Reynolds should quote them all as IV I've no idea.
If you look at Hajdamach '20th Century British Glass' - page 37 ......... he shows clear vases with green decoration and wavy rims etc. dated to c. 1900 - 1910 (typical of nouveau style) and which he states were saved from the Stuart factory when they closed - pieces very similar to the green eight pointed bowl we've been discussing, and some with moulded ribs too. However, he does caution collectors to be aware that T.W. and S. & W. also produced such designs.
I now do have the clear example of the same shaped bowl as the green thingy we've been discussing - will post separately shortly. Absolutely no idea from where you might source the catalogue you want to see - the V. & A. might be worth a shot.
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I had been more inclined to think S&W on this dark green bowl (of which you now have the clear version! :) ) But I think that's because many years ago when I was researching all the tadpole/dab/peacock eye vases I'd come across that bowl with the Illustrated Catalogue of English Table Glass source reference I've just linked to.
So to be fair, if it turns out to be Stuart, it was Christine who first noted that she always though of it as a Stuart green not me :)
And I'm coming round to thinking it could be Stuart more now that observation has been made.
John the suggestion of OP's bowl possibly being shaped to hold a lid is a good one. It could also be that it had a wire insert in the top to hold flowers perhaps as well?
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Re: getting to the bottom of the maker of The dark green bowl in question linked here:
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/stevens-and-williams-green-art-glass-bowl-130-c-13746fa9c6
and here (scroll down the page to see the bowl and also a source of id of S&W in the Illustrated Catalogue of English Table Glass from Stevens and Williams 1930):
source reference picture here:
https://sites.google.com/a/bohemianglassandmore.com/bohemian-glass-and-more/_/rsrc/1228033870986/miscellaneous-identified-pieces/SW%20Product%2025906%20Ribbed%20Bowl.jpg?height=120&width=200
https://sites.google.com/a/bohemianglassandmore.com/bohemian-glass-and-more/miscellaneous-identified-pieces
page 120 of Gullliver's Victorian Decorative Glass British Designs 1850-1914, Schiffer
shows a Stuart bowl that has a green spiral trail all the way up culminating in a pinched wavy rim. The base part of that bowl is exactly the same shape as the Dark green bowl linked above.
Just to add, whilst the shape does remind me of Stuart now it's been mentioned, the colour doesn't for some reason.
However...
This tall vase is a definite Stuart and in a dark green:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=68690.0;attach=228205;image
source here
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,68690.msg382373.html#msg382373
m
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John the suggestion of OP's bowl possibly being shaped to hold a lid is a good one. It could also be that it had a wire insert in the top to hold flowers perhaps as well?
like this one for example
https://portal-images.azureedge.net/auctions-2013/srtri10011/images/a332d456-e3b9-4b85-9fa0-a44700b64148.jpg
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Yes that makes sense, certainly feels a bit more likely than a glass lid. Rose bowls do seem to have been popular in the first couple of decades of the C20th.
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Interesting bowl here on ebay:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224669832007?hash=item344f5d9347:g:MXIAAOSw8F1hemU7
Has a polished pontil mark and I'd have thought that decor was S&W Fibrillose ? Fibrilose ?
It has ten pulled frills on the rim.
I know it's not the same shape as the OPs bowl but it is trailed :P