Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: tmmorg on December 04, 2021, 10:42:17 PM
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This is my first post so apologies if it is the wrong place and also if the images are not the best quality. I'm still learning. I recently purchased this vase, purporting to be signed by Samuel J Herman in 1970. However, it is not like any of the other pieces of his, which I have seen. I mainly collect Mdina, so the similarities were not lost on me. Any thoughts regarding the signature and form would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks in advance,
Tom
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Hello Tom and welcome to the board. For unidentified pieces we need them put into Glass, once identified they get moved to the relevant country forum for discussion. I'll move this over for you now.
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Thank you, Anne
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Now we need Sue (chopin-liszt) or one of the other Sam Herman aficionados to come and take a look. ;)
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Thank you, Anne... Fingers crossed!!!
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I've just looked at my 5 examples of the signature and I don't think this fits in with any of them.
Does the 7 have the bar across it's middle? Sam's do.
Also, this looks terribly like Mdina. It would be an unusual sort of experimental Fish.
It doesn't look like Sam's work.
His signature does vary, but is mostly very sloped.
Sorry to be the bearer of non-Sam tidings, but I'd suggest heading back to Malta for your Id. :)
But also, wait until you hear what Greg might say. If Greg doesn't agree with me, I would revise my opinion.
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Thank you very much for taking the time to reply Sue and for checking your own pieces for comparison. Don't worry about being the bearer of bad news, I hoped I'd stumbled across a very unusual SH piece, but seemingly if something is so unusual, it probably isn't right.
Many thanks again for your help!
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Hi Tom,
Just out of curiosity, would you be able to add a photo of the top, looking down into the neck? I need to pop out shortly, but will try and take a look later today.
Thanks
Greg
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Hi Greg,
Hope this is good enough, I'm not the best at photographing glass. Thank you very much for taking the time to have a look. I've included a close up of the inside, where it appears to be cased in clear glass. Not sure how useful that is though, so please disregard if it tells you nothing.
Many thanks again,
Tom
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Been doing a bit of thinking. :)
I don't know of any piece where Sam used a dip mould. It wasn't really his style to make something so controlled- he liked working *with* the hot glass itself. Not controlling it or being controlled by it.
The colour of the clear glass is very clean and fairly new looking. I know less about newer Mdina than the early stuff, but during the late '90s, early'00s, they did seem to be doing revivals of older styles.
George Elliot also made "Fish" shaped bottles very like the shape of this.
The lettering on the signature here looks rather shaky at the man bit of Herman. I very strongly suspect it is an amateur addition.
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Here's my tuppence worth! These are purely my personal views Tom.
I noticed this piece for sale recently and although I wanted to believe it was an unusual piece of Sam's work on balance I could not convince myself. Primarily, as Sue mentions the signature is a concern, its not as free flowing as I would expect.
The way the colours have been used are somewhat similar to some of Sam's work, however the overall feel of the piece doesn't seem to marry up with other examples of his work, it lacks a certain fluidity which Sam's work is renowned for.
The base finish is also slightly unusual, although its plausible that it could have been (almost completely) ground for stability or balance, its just another element that doesn't seem quite right, especially when viewed in the round with the points above.
Its an interesting piece of glass, however personally I felt it had too many question marks over it. I hope this helps a little.
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I wondered a little bit about Phoenician? They had a way of making dip mould stripes a lot neater and tidier than those made at Mdina, the swelling with the bubble in the middle is something I'd associate with Phoenician more than with Mdina. :)
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I also suspect this is probably from Malta and nothing to do with Sam Herman. My concern immediately is the position of the "signature". It is where an American Glass maker would often sign, not where a British maker would. I checked my Sam Herman and sure enough the signing is on the underside where I would expect it to be.
It looks like a seller at some point has tried to improve the saleability of the item. One would expect they would know where Sam Herman signs, and that the coolours of the item are so typical of Mdina product from early on production.
Ross
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Sam was Mexican-American to start off with. ;D
But all my examples of his signature are on the base. 8)
In his writing, the letters are very small, but the upstrokes are tall.
Only one has had the base finished off in any way, and that's from the RCA. It has a flat polished base with a deeper crescent shaped hole left in it.
Unfortunately, the fact that somebody has scrawled on this piece under query here, means it is officially damaged. I suppose it could be polished off, which would mean it was repaired.
It is a nice, interesting thing. But not Sam Herman, in my not terribly humble opinion.
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Thank you all very much for sharing your expertise on this vase. I think it's fair to say we have a consensus!
While I do still like this vase, it clearly isn't what I thought, so I'll ask the seller for a refund.
A good lesson learned- as a collector of Mdina/IOW glass, I should really stick to what I know.
If it's not too indulgent I might post a photo of my little collection later, just so you don't think I'm a complete dunce in the glass department 🤣.
Once again though, thank you all so much for your contributions, greatly appreciated!
Tom
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It would be lovely to see. 8)
Do have a good dig around the Malta section here too.
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Thank you, Sue. Not a patch on your legendary collection I know, very modest but brings me such joy to stare at on the mantelpiece everyday. The very strong mantelpiece I should add. I've actually had a good read of much of the malta section over the years, well the mdina bits at least. I've learnt a lot from all of you on here and you have certainly helped me, from afar, when purchasing pieces. Oh and I know the trailed attenuated bottle is sadly broken and polished down, but if it wasn't, I wouldnt have been able to afford it, so I consider it a real lucky buy.
Sorry if it seems I have given up the search for the origin of the vase that started this post. You helped me so much to answer my main concern- was it by SH- that I won't be looking into it any further. I don't think, sadly, a definitive source may ever be found. But you helped me no end by saying definitively who it wasn't by. I hope this doesn't come across as not in the spirit of this group. In interesting piece of glass, but no longer 'for me'.
Thanks once more to all of you gor your kindness and help,
Tom
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You've got the bottom bit of the bottle which is better than the broken top. :)
And even that would be better than none at all. ;D
The side stripe looks strange - I assume the stripes are amethyst, but they look somehow textured/knobbled.
I don't have a blue pot with strapping as you do, so you have something I don't. 8)
Good to know it is with somebody who knows what it is and appreciates it.
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🤣 I'd never thought of the broken bottle like that Sue. You're not wrong though. The broken top would look very strange on display, but would be better than nothing. I think the sidestripe just looks pixilated in the photo due to the resizing. It isn't textured in anyway. Still I adore it. My earliest piece I would imagine. Just pre-70s would you think?
Thank you for your kind words, especially as I know you've got lots of pieces that are just the holy grail for most collectors!
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As for the blue trailed vase, it is the one that was discussed on here a few years ago. The seller, bakedbeans, who I had the pleasure of buying it from sent me the link to the thread. He had taken it to Elizabeth and Timothy, who thought it was made at the end of Michael's time at Mdina.
Now, I in no way want to contradict what any of them said but... I find this too interesting not to mention. Ron Wheeler was of the opinion that these were trial pieces for the attenuated bottles, which he said MH found very challenging and frustrating to make. Having seen a few more of these trailed vases, I'm now inclined to agree with Ron, as I often find myself doing on most things (he thought the SH vase was questionable, suggesting I post it on here for a definitive answer). Anyway, the ones I have seen, (including John's I think from the IOW archive) all show a definite progression of skill. It's almost like you can see Michael learning as he goes until he achieves a very high level of finish. At which point, maybe, he felt he was ready to make the trailed attenuated bottles.
Just a thought which may not be right, but as I say the examples I've seen (6 of them including mine and the one in the IOW museum) do definitely show an increasing level of finesse and quality of finish.
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That's frankly a relief to hear about it being pixellated, Tom. I don't think crimping the side stripes would add anything to the design - not in keeping with the age. ;D
We do not know if MH found these strapped bottles "frustrating" to make or that he "didn't like" making them.
I told Ron they would have been very difficult to make. They would have been!
Have you ever tried to paint or draw a really effective psychadelic pattern? Then think about having only one shot at putting a bit anywhere, and it is rotating, it weighs a ton, wants to fall to the ground and is white-red hot? But you want an even distrubution of the design, all fitting together, all around?
I suspect what I said about the difficulty of execution has since developed arms and legs. My bottle was the first one Ron ever saw, but he refused to believe it was by MH until he saw a signed one, some years later.
MH loved working with glass, he wanted to see how far he could go with it, always pushing.
He wasn't lazy, he may have had troubles - but it was all part of his learning process.
He really doesn't sound, to me, like the sort of artist who disliked difficult or frustrating challenges. He sought them out. The story that he didn't like making them simply doesn't make any sense.
The truth is WE DO NOT KNOW his personal feelings about making these bottles.
It takes an average of 10 years training to make a good glassmaker.
MH was not being trained. By '70, he'd had a couple of years teaching himself? (All mixed up with the troubles of trying to get the studio going.) And a wee bit at Rogaska Sklo in '64.
That is what I love about the early work, seeing his self-taught skills develop. Seeing the art that shines through the odd wonky bit.
My bottle does have a couple of tool marks, it isn't cased as some are.
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I suppose the terms frustrating and challenging are subjective- I never took either of them to mean he didn't enjoy making these bottles necessarily, just that he was pushing himself and his art to the absolute limit. I know Mark Hill refers to a 'tense' atmosphere when MH was making fish (I think that's the correct section) and I just took it to mean that these bottles were even more difficult than those. In a brief email exchange, Elizabeth and Timothy mentioned the challenges of making the bottle itself, as it needed to be thick enough and strong enough to handle the trailing and the different cooling rates. It really does make the mind boggle at what an undertaking these were. No doubt why they are such highly prized pieces today.
Anyway, fascinating to hear that the original seed of this story may well have come from your good self. I must check with you in future, before spreading anymore potential falsehoods.
Do you think it conceivable that the trailed vases could have been trial pieces for the bottles? There does seem to be a definite progression in skill as well as a change in colour. The pieces I have seen tend to get darker, mine being cobalt (and I believe a later piece/latest piece) where as the earlier ones are a lighter (diluted?) blue. Would this fit with him working up to using the same glass he eventually used for the trailing on the bottles, or am I completely off the mark?
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Who am I to say whether there was any definite plan, or if he was just seeing how far he could go and what he could achieve as he developed? Each new gather of glass was a new opportunity.
Why do people want everything to be neat, catalogued and tidy? It wasn't a neat, catalogued or tidy time. ;D They didn't have notepads and pencils, documenting everything.
We have not yet ascertained exacly when the single pot of cobalt was melted, but suspicions are towards fairly early in the time MH was there. I have a cobalt charger, he was able to make one of those at that time.
Depth of colour was simply down to the concentration of colour salts in a pot. Each one would be slightly different.
I've got a strange sort of bottle, very thick and heavy - if it had been flattened and spun on the rod, it would have been a crizzle stone.
It might have been a trial go at a planned crizzle stone, but he stopped for lunch.
Or it could have been something he looked at once done and thought, what if I make it a different shape?
We don't know. ;D
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The joy of the unknown.
And as for that bottle, which I saw in the 5oth anniversary thread I think :o !!!
Words fail me!
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This?
It arrived in one thin layer of dirty, flattened bubble wrap, rattling around in a very thin cardboard box which once contained a cafetiere.
The most incredible thing about it is it survived. ;D
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Yep 🤤
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The original vase is still interesting, would agree either Mdina or Phoenecian. Pretty sure the stripes are made using a dip mould which is not something I associate with the early years at Mdina but both companies definitely made paperweights with this pattern sooner or later. Apart from that blue stripe, looks like a trail just over the top - not something I remember seeing off hand. Ring any bells with anyone?
Shape wise I could see it sitting happily next to this:
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/dawsonsauctions/catalogue-id-dawson10036/lot-d2a81c5e-1946-4c35-b8af-a8e9010f40e3
My assumption is these small early sidestripes with amethyst or cobalt stripes tend to be pretty early, they can be a bit wobbly so to speak and utterly charming. 1969 is my guess.
John
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I've got one a bit like that, but cased in clear with added amethyst strip corners, an amethyst inner with silver salts. It's an early experimental thing as far as I know. Mark has a cobalt one, which puts it in the cobalt-pot-period, whenever that was. ;D
The almost satinated base finish and clarity of the metal make me think the original piece is much later - something of a revival.
I don't think we know when Mdina got hold of any dip moulds. And a dip mould was certainly used to make the silver salt stripes. The blue band seems to be over the swelling of the bubble underneath. :)
And thanks for adding the side-stripe piccie and estimated time. One of mine has almost 2 bases, there is an angled corner on the back (or front if you put it that way around).
The flaws definitely seem to support ~'68 ish. ;D
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Thank you, John. Yes that blue stripe fascinated me too. It does seem to float above the inner vase (striped section) just underneath the first layer of clear glass casing (if that's the right term). Whoever made it, it does strike me as a fairly complex piece. You're making me have second thoughts about sending it back, but it is boxed up now and I mustn't forget, it was sold under the pretnence of being a SH piece.
Thank you for the date of these early side stripes, too. Yours is a beaut! I love how there's often a clear glass crescent on these early ones, where the coloured section doesn't quite fill the whole vase. Mine's only got a tiny slither, but yours is very prominent. Really emphasises the colour to the clear glass 'framing' it.
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As for the dip mould, I do have 3 of those paperweights, all signed mdina, in what I believe to be Michael's hand. Anyway, one has the rectangular 'made in malta' paper label, which I believe is early? Don't know if that helps any with dating when the got a dip mould. Largely as I don't really know what a dip mould is 😂.
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Dip mould. Illustrated.
https://www.cmog.org/glass-dictionary/dip-mold
Thanks for the info about your weights, Tom. I'm sure I used to think the mould(s) came along a bit later, but I'm also sure something I encountered contradicted that, recently.
You have confirmed my suspicions of the contradiction.
They must have got hold of one at least, pretty early on, certainly Harris period.
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Thank you for clarifying the dip mould, Sue. Much appreciated. I'm still not sure I understand fully how this creates the stripes? Foolishly, I always thought the colours were 'pierced' into the weights if that makes sense, with the use of some sort of large needle. Writing this down I suddenly realise how silly that sounds :-\
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It creates valleys in the surface of a gather when the hot glass is pressed down into it.
Silver salts could be introduced to the valleys, or the mould might be lined with them.
But possibly best ask a glassmaker how exactly they are used to create coloured stripes.
Silver chloride is a nasty substance that melts from solid to liquid in heat. I've never encountered it, only seen its effects with glass. Silver nitrate is a damp, gritty, white crystaline "powder" that sucks water out of the air and tries to dissolve itself. It burns everything it touches, no heat required to get it to do that.
I imagine powdered enamels would be much easier to work with and could be put inside the mould. A slick of oil with a paintbrush would hold powder in place. (That's what I used when having a go at copper enamelling.)
I have no idea what dangers and horrors folk in glass studios were doing to themselves, playing with these sorts of lab chemicals without proper training and protective equipment.
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The dip mould create grooves in the gather, my guess it is then rolled across a marver to pick up whatever is used to colour a given pattern such as a coloured enamel. The gather could be blown or is this case further worked before or after the pick up depending on the design required.
There are lots of weights photographed sitting on various shelves etc in Mark Hill's book, hard to see any detail in most of them but some are swirled like this one.
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I can see that working with powdered enamels, I'm really not at all sure about the silver salts. They are really horrible chemicals, and they don't behave at all nicely.
I had one ancient lab coat I kept for when I had to use silver nitrate. It is covered in brown spots and holes.
The top won't go back on the bottle, because of it dissolving itself in the moisture from the air. It all creeps up and recrystallises in the screw top, bits break off.
It is almost impossible to control it. And it's really expensive. ;D
I have not ever used silver chloride.
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I see the vase that started this thread is back on the market, caveat emptor!
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:o I take it it is not properly described? (I've had a look but didn't find it.)
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Its still described as previously sold, if you search under Samuel Herman you should see it.
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I'm not signed up to ebay any more and don't seem to be able to search it. I can't do much of anything with the pc since windoze 7 died. ::)
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Thank you Sue and John, for the info about the dip moulding, fascinating and much appreciated.
Yes Greg, that was a quick turn around. I must add I made a well below asking price offer if anyone fancies it 😂