Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Roobarb on December 13, 2021, 05:10:57 PM
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Hello, this piece is signed "Edinburgh" & "Glass Works" on base with what appears to either be "phu" or "nyd" across the centre on the rough pontil. Not been able to find any information other than there was a company called the Edinburgh Glass Works but they merged with Leigh Glass in the 1820s. Any info would be much appreciated.
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That would be Leith Glass, not Leigh.
But this looks to be a lot more recent than 1820s.
Something is muttering away at me here. It is muttering Helen Munroe-Turner. I know she did work with Juniper Green, but Leith might have been involved.
The few pieces of her work in the Studio glass style that I have seen tend to use a lot of white glass and be a bit crude. Kind of very not unlike this.
It would be a long shot, but I think that could well be the name to start off with finding out a bit more.
I may be completely wrong!
I have just got out my book which used to belong to H M-T. She wrote Turner inside it.
Her writing of Turner is not incsistent with the writing on this - which is on glass, not paper, but the way it goes and gets a bit iffy between the r and the n is not dissimilar to the way it goes a bit squiffy between the u and the r.
Letters individually are similar.
I am no handwriting ex-spurt, and don't give much credence to that sort of thing anyway.
I have at least 3-4 totally different writings and styles.
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Hello chopin-liszt, thank you for your reply and info.
I've not been able to find many examples of Helen Monro Turner's work but what I have seen doesn't look like this piece, which looks quite like Kosta Boda vases I think. It's a bit of a mystery, which I didn't think it would be when first seeing it was signed. I'll keep looking for Helen Monro Turner examples - thank you :)
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Whilst doing another search on Helen I came across this photo...
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.sanity.io%2Fimages%2Fcxgd3urn%2Fproduction%2Fce56711f9eb89cd4c571d51c7ce05dda49d8bf22-1400x1137.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theartnewspaper.com%2F2021%2F01%2F22%2Fremembering-sam-herman-pioneering-glass-artist-and-teacher-who-also-won-recognition-for-his-paintings-and-welded-steel-sculptures&tbnid=IkBfIxvZ6Q-OtM&vet=12ahUKEwjEn-vzy-P0AhUB-hoKHUXZDhkQMygcegUIARCLAg..i&docid=PrKS1U7K1bU2GM&w=1400&h=1137&itg=1&q=helen%20monro%20turner%20glass%20vase&ved=2ahUKEwjEn-vzy-P0AhUB-hoKHUXZDhkQMygcegUIARCLAg
Which I thought was very similar to mine, pinky / purple colour, clear base and lines. The article it's from is about Sam Hermam, and it says...
"Herman studied with Littleton, and with the sculptor Leo Steppat, at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, where he seized the opportunity, as one of Littleton’s first students, to develop studio glass techniques, and received a Master of Fine Arts in Sculpture and Glass in 1965. He then won a Fulbright Scholarship to study cold-working glass techniques with Helen Monro Turner at the Edinburgh College of Art."
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She was a very important lady in glass. ;D
There are not too many examples of her work around, but there were two or 3 signed bits in an over-expensive antiques place I used to visit. I did manage to study them a little bit, but was not tempted to buy - I'm not fond of white or white opaque glass - and it goes peculiar around the rim.
There is a fairly well-known small amethyst Fish vase, made by Michael Harris, dediciated and given to Helen M-T.
Her importance was not lost on either Sam Herman or Michael Harris. ;D
It might have helped if I had spelled her name correctly. Munro-Turner.
She famously wore a glass wedding dress. There's a bit about her in Scotland's Glass.
http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=312&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=6
Dennis Mann (proudly) uses her old lathe and gave a demonstration on it at the Edinburgh Conference.
eta. Interesting article here.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/41809051
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Thanks chopin-liszt.
I will try and add a picture of the vase in daylight tomorrow as think the colour in the photos I've shared isn't a good reflection of the piece. The body has a pink / purple tone :)
Going to research Sam Herman more as that seems like a possibility, unfortunately the pages showing photos of work at http://www.samueljherman.com/glass/index.html don't appear to be working at the mo.
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It's not Sam's work. I promise you. ;D
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I do kind of wish Frank would come along and comment on the marks on this. I think he knows a bit more about H. M-T and might have seen some of her blown work too.
I can't find any examples on-line myself.
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Cannot help at all. But correct is Monro Turner, seem to recall Brian Blench confirming that at one point. As to Edinburgh Glass works, I would read Glass Works Edinburgh so Juniper is quite possible.
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Thank you Frank. Will keep hold of this piece until I find out more :)
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Do you agree is is likely to be Helen Munro Turner's work, Frank?
I did get quite excited at the possibility. I've only seen the three pieces which were in the (no longer there) antique place in the big old church in Dunkeld. I do think this piece is completely consistent with those.
If it is her work, it should really be in a museum. ;D
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Sadly, no idea. Never handled any of her work :(
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Is there anybody else who might have a clue?
We are rather down a very small rabbit-hole here. ;D
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Just a quick update... I got in touch with National Museums Scotland and they thought this vase wasn't a HMT piece. The two reasons they stated were;
Firstly, even though she had a studio at Jupiter Green and set up a glass department at ECA, they were never under the moniker of Edinburgh Glassworks.
Secondly, an independent expert on her work was consulted and it was agreed the piece was not hers, and that the engraved words don't have her 'finesse'.
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;D Thanks very much for reporting back, Roobarb. It would have been Juniper Green though, not Jupiter.
I have seen a fair bit of the glass they have in Edinburgh. If it's the Museum in Chamber Street, which I think is the name of the one you mention, (it's called Chamber Street Museum by everybody who lives there) there is a fair bit of non-monart Monart there...
And engraving can be difficult to accomplish with finesse, especially if not well-practised. ;D
But the studio never being Edinburgh Glassworks knocks HMT on the head.
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If they're wrong about that - maybe they're wrong about the vase ;D
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The more opinions the better.
But this is a really hard one to find folk with opinions on. :)
I did edit my last reply and say more.
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Thanks chopin-liszt :) Well I'll let this one live in my kitchen for now - can't part with ones with so much mystery around them!
They did say this it was likely an end of day piece...but that doesn't really get very me far.
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An "end of day" piece is a complete myth. There is no such thing.
it came about because somebody erroneously thought glass kilns got turned off at night and warmed up again the next day, so they "had to use up what was left at the end of the day".
The kilns are not turned off and on again. It would take far too long for them to cool, then far too long to reheat. They are left on.
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I had heard that before about end of day glass! But when I tried to research it, lots of websites seemed to say it was a thing. Thanks for confirming it's not...
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You know what they say - a lie is twice around the world before the truth has got it's shoes on.
Debunking myths is not easy. ::)
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Is it just the term that is wrong? In that it wouldn't necessarily be at the end of the day, because the kilns didn't have to be turned off. Or were there pieces made with leftover colours of glass that were not part of a production run...
Hope that makes sense...I'm just wondering if pieces made with "leftovers" are common, but the term "end of day" is wrong...
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There were undoubtedly experiments. Colours are often not applied from a pot unless there is a largish run. They are often applied using coloured blocks. This http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=899 looks like blue glass with applied white frit but it's actually colourless glass with the tiniest amount of blue applied from a block about the size of a tealight
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Thanks Lustrousstone, that's interesting to know.