Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: glassobsessed on December 30, 2021, 08:50:43 PM
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Don't think I had ever heard of a Wager Cup before today. The odd connotation comes to mind and somebody definitely gets the short end of the stick in terms of volume...
She is just over 10cm tall so pretty small, the little glass over her head is tiny. Both glasses rims are gilded but not much remains on the 'base'.
These three by Fritz Heckert are all bigger and look to be of a higher quality I reckon:
https://www.steveonsteins.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Glass-wedding-beaker-7.5-ht.-blown-late-1800s-by-Fritz-Heckert1.jpg
https://hotglassshow.org/artwork/wager-cup?image=0
Scroll to the bottom for this one:
https://www.rubylane.com/item/365154-RL-962/Bohemian-Czech-Fritz-Heckert-Pale-Green
There is another mention of one on the board but no image of it remains.
John
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Jodhpur, Josephinenhutte I think? I'm always curious about how 'naive' the transparent enamelling looks on these though.
https://antikes-glas.de/en/josephinenhuette/small-vase-with-translucid-email-jodhpur-josephinenhuette-gerlach-p-1741.html
Decor Design Franz Reuleaux around 1900-10.
Lit: Stefania Zelasko, Josephinenhütte 1900-50, page 132.
Lit: Stefania Zelasko, F. Heckert 1866-1923, page 112.
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Wow, they both have little etched flowers on the blue bands, just noticed that the criss cross lines on this wager cup are etched too. Not sure the style fits with Jodhpur, maybe a more European influence?
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https://antikes-glas.de/en/fritz-heckert/stem-glass-jodhpur-josephinenhuette-design-reuleaux-p-1412.html
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and this one design Rudolf Wille
https://antikes-glas.de/en/josephinenhuette/stem-glass-jodhpur-josephinenhuette-design-rudolf-wille-1912-p-1561.html
A few here to view:
https://antikes-glas.de/advanced_search_result.php/en?keywords=jodhpur
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This one has the same engraved lines on the 'flowers', a good match with the gilded zig zag lines too:
https://www.catawiki.com/en/l/47382489-fritz-heckert-entwurf-franz-reuleaux-stem-of-jodphur-glass-around-1900-number-4
I rest your case!
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I take a bow :)
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Much applause, a fanfare wouldn't be amiss either. ;D
Once part of a matching set maybe?
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8) You've certainly cheered me up and provided some much needed distraction for a wee while with all this glass excitement AND a new sort of thingy I'd never heard of, on top. ;D
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Do you find it a little odd? The whole wager cup thing/ritual I mean. As it happens it was a gift and was a surprise in and of itself, the speed with which m was able to identify it was a bit of a shock too. The initial post was as much show and tell as a request for help - seems I was in two minds then!
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I just had to look up how it was used. ;D
The drinker was supposed to sup from the big skirt, without spilling a drip of the measure in the small cup.
I don't know if the whole thing is creepy, or just the gilt metal bits. :-\
The glass bits are lovely, on their own.
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What were you in two minds about?
I'm lost ???
I don't know if this is the correct description of what a wager cup was used for but this was on a silver site about the silver ones:
https://www.acsilver.co.uk/acsnews/2014/05/01/silver-wager-cup/
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https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O156622/wager-cup-unknown/
I believe the husband drank from the larger skirt and the wife from the smaller cup.
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Yes and with such a small example using it is going to be tricky and definitely intimate. Two minds as I was not sure whether I was requesting information or intending the post to be a show and tell.
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Seems different sources describe slightly different methods.
https://www.themost10.com/insane-drinking-games-from-around-the-world/
In the absence of a couple getting married, it could be used the single way. No reason it could not have been used in more than one way.
But two people trying to use such a tiny thing would be doomed from the start. ;D
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oh sorry :-[ If you'd said 'no clues' I'd have held off :-[
It's a gorgeous thing.
m
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I do not think anybody, ever, wishes you to "hold off" M. 8)
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:-* Sue
But I know what you mean John. I've lots of pieces I don't post because years later I'm still researching them and wouldn't want someone to give me the answer.
Love your wager cup though. It's sooo pretty.
m
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The proper name for this vessel is, in German, "Brautbecher", "Brautpaarbecher", also "Brautpokal", or betrothal beaker in English. To a lesser extent, some refer to it as a "Jungfraubecher". I must adamantly disagree with the latter, as "Jungfrau" means maiden, or unmarried woman. I agree with the term Brautpaarbecher, as this vessel is drunk from by the bride and groom simultaneously after being married - "Brautpaar" means married, or betrothed couple. The term "Wagercup" seems nonsensical to me, just like the term "beer stein", whose coining was the result of a misunderstanding.
"Jodhpur" is another pet peeve of mine, that people often get wrong. It's East Indian, not Islamic! Jodhpur is a region in India, where Prof. Franz Reuleaux, an acclaimed machine designer, made a trip to the region in the 1880's and found such designs on brass vessels (and which can be found on eBay, etc.), finding upon these designs which were engraved, then filled with colored enamel. Many cultures employed continuous, wrap around decorations (notably across Asia), that doesn't make them Islamic. Reuleaux brought these designs to Fritz Heckert, then to Josephinenhütte, who often shared designers. At the Heckert glassworks, other designers, most notably Prof. Max Rade and Martin Ehring built on those designs.
Rolf-Dieter
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Hello and welcome to the board :)
Thank you for supplying all the detailed information/corrections you have on Josephinenhutte and Heckert on this and other posts.
I wonder if you can help with any further information on this little iridescent gold vase of mine please?:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,50483.msg320331.html#msg320331
My thoughts are it was made by Josephinenhutte but I don't have definitive proof of that. Any thoughts would be gratefully received.
Your comments on Jodhpur are interesting. I've a silver platter with what is often described as Persian decoration on it however I actually believe it is Indian. It's large and hand engraved and enamelled all over with animals and other designs. So far I've not been able to pin down the region it's from but I do think it was made in India and isn't what I often see described as Persian.
m
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Thank you for the warm welcome, as well as the compliments, and your messages, m. I am German, and a retired electronics, electrical and mechanical engineer. All of these require that I be detailed. lol
For 40 years, I’ve been researching antique Central European enamel decorated glass, with emphasis on Fritz Heckert replicas of Renaissance and Baroque drinking vessels (,,im altdeutschem Stil” – EN, in the old German style), such as the Reichsadlerhumpen, and of which, I have a very substantial collection of vessels from that series, as well as many other Heckert pieces, mostly Römers.
To address the last item first, I am not aware that any such items were produced in India, in silver. India is known the world over for its brass work.
Now for the vase. Let me begin with, the iridizing process was discovered by the chemists at Petersdorfer Glashütte Fritz Heckert, prior to 1890. They were seeking a method to mimic the chemical change that Roman glass excavated on the island of Cypress underwent, after having been buried there for more than 2 millennia. The iridizing occurred as the result of the chemical reaction between the glass and the minerals in the surrounding soil.
That is why, after the discovery at the Heckert glassworks, the colour of Heckert vases are described as the color plus the word Cypern, which is German for Cypress. For example, Krystallcypern (a whitish colour), Goldcypern (gold), Azurcypern (blue, green), Bronzecypern (a goldish/greenish colour), or simply, Cypernglas, regardless of colour. Unless you can read/understand German, and have read all of the books on Heckert, the average English speaking collector would never know this.
Take a guess at what colour the subject vase is? Hint: it’s Goldcypern. The glass pattern looks very familiar, like it’s from the Heckert “Kairo-Serie”. Based on the finish. It looks to be by Josephinenhütte, with whom Heckert shared the process, and marketed directly, or made by Josephinenhütte and marketed by Heckert. I’d date the vase as 1890, or later. The finish on the VA vase, is Bronzecypern.
One of my many research projects is to catalog the glass patterns in the various Josephinenhütte pattern books, because many were also supplied to Heckert. I’m currently working on the Series 400 pattern book, with many more pattern books still to go. I will update should I find that particular pattern.
I haven’t spoken to Maria (The Guilded Curio) in years. I corrected her on various Heckert items within her collection, but it seems that she never implemented them. I have to disagree with the assessment of Neuwirth – I have seen many errors in his listings, and don’t even get me started on his outrageous prices – really over the top. Case in point: he recently listed a Pokal. Nothing about the listing is correct. Not his assumption about the decoration, or his assumption about the maker and where made. He truly disappoints me. Now, Uwe Wolf of Glas Wolf, who I’ve known for years, is the exact opposite. Ditto for Jan at Glas Kilian.
Rolf-Dieter
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Thank you for your additional information. It's appreciated.
I will look into the "Kairo-Serie" further to see if I can find a match to the little vase and thank you for offering to add information should you come across it in the pattern books.
It's a long time ago now but I think when I was looking into that vase it seemed to me the iridescent finish on the Josephinenhutte pieces was different to that on the pieces produced at Heckert. I came to the conclusion mine was produced at Josephinenhutte. But as I say it was a long time ago and I might have misremembered.
There is some interesting and detailed information here on silver enamelled production in India and how difficult it was:
https://www.josephcohenantiques.com/products/antique-mughal-parcel-gilt-silver-enamelled-minakari-jug-chuski-mughal-india-late-18th-century
And now, having re-read the information in that article, I have some more research to do on my platter regarding place of production/era of production given the difficulty of enamelling on silver detailed in the article.
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I don't know why I hadn't thought of it yesterday (getting old and it was late), but I will have a look through my Heckert glass image library of about 14,000 images. None of the Heckert books are all encompassing. Update: I cannot for the life of me find the message where you referred to your vase. I've looked through the relevant files, and going by memory (for me, a bad idea), I may have come across a couple of similar vases by Heckert (images attached). One is a Sütterlin vase (cat. no. unknown - take a look at the applied handles, rather than the shape of the vase), c. 1902. The other is a Prof. Rade designed vase from Kollektion Kairo (I erred yesterday, these are referred to as Kollektion Kairo, Serie I & Serie II), c. 1890. The attached image is of vase 4737 KII (glass pattern 4737, Kollektion Kairo, Serie II).
Well, I’ll be. I’d have never known that had I not made your acquaintance. Thank you for that. That chuski is a beautiful piece. The decoration looks very similar to the decoration found on Jodhpur wares. It is curious that the chuski has no handle. On the other hand, silver dissipates heat quickly, similar to aluminum. Although I haven’t investigated the mechanics behind it, placing silver, such as a spoon, in a glass vessel, will prevent the hot liquid from shattering the vessel. Incidentally, Russia is well known for producing masterpieces in the form of engraved and enamel decorated silver objects, such as tea caddies. You might look into this to see how their process differs from that used in India.
Rolf-Dieter
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Not used to this message system yet. Forced to resize image.
Please find the image of the Prof. Rade vase attached.
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Thank you. They are lovely examples. I note the handles and the shape of the little foot/base etc. There are many similarities with my vase.
Interestingly the iridescent finish on the green one is different to the white one.
That was something I had picked up on in the thread on my gold vase.
See my post regarding this here:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,50483.msg288408.html#msg288408
I think the iridescence on mine is crackly like the green one you show.
The iridescence on the white one you show is smooth and I think the iridescence was applied or fired differently to create the different smooth surface. So maybe on type produced at Fritz Heckert, I thought the crackly surface as in my gold vase, and the other at Josephinehutte perhaps.
My little gold vase is here:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,50483.msg320331.html#msg320331
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Following the top link, 2 links are provided there. The 1st link no longer functions as eBay doesn't archive completed listings for very long. The 2nd link takes you to CW. I disagree with user "Bohemian Art Glass" that Cypern was a series. It was simply a finish. In any case, and considering the vases shown there, there is a similar vase currently listed on eBay in Azurcypern:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/204630369861
Thank you for the link to your vase. I'll be sure to save the images this time, which is what I should have done to begin with.
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Thank you for the new link. Good colour and photographs.
Of all my iridescent glass absolutely none has this 'snakeskin' or tiny crackled effect iridescent surface except for my small gold vase.
I think this is either a Josephinenhutte finish or a Fritz Heckert finish. I wonder which one?
m
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To be honest, as I research/collect the Heckert drinking vessel replicas, his wine glasses and his sparkling wine beakers, which are all very different from the vases, I have little experience with the vases, other than what I’ve read and have seen in the many images that I’ve collected over the years.
Here's a small taste in the attached image of mostly Heckert items...
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That's a lovely collection :)
It's not a period I'm all that familiar with to be honest. My interest is in much earlier glass from pre 1850 but it's always amazing to see pieces that are so good they could be in a museum collection.
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I should have added that the mentioned replicas, are replicas of Renaissance/Baroque period pieces, the original examples of which are mostly irreplaceable and quite valuable (ex. $15,000-35,000 for a large imperial eagle beaker).