Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: LEGSY on January 14, 2022, 06:35:54 PM
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Light weight decanter only 7.5" to the top then the stopper, I think the rings are molded rather than
applied seems unusual seen as they have gone to the trouble of cutting not to apply the rings?
Would love to know an age estimate and or country of origin although that part might be more difficult.
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These are usually described as being Georgian and I think yours is probably English from that period, but I'm no expert. This link might help.
https://www.18cglass.co.uk/georgian-glass-decanters/#:~:text=The%20%EE%80%80decanter%EE%80%81%20was%20a%20necessity%20in%20the%20best,the%20customer%20to%20see%20the%20wine%20and%20
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had you not said this was lightweight, I'd have been nearly 100% happy - this bottle shows decoration in what is known as the 'vesica' pattern which was a signature motif of the Cork Colass Co., and if genuine would date the bottle to c. 1800, give or take. The 'vesica' pattern - the longish oval cartouche filled with cross hatching over pillar flutes (finger bottoms) - was common on Irish glass specifically. Above the vesica it looks like slice cut panels. On genuine pieces there should be some slight 'kick' in the base - this one shows much wear and a wide shallow pontil depression. The colour looks o.k., but 'lightweight sounds at odds with what I would have assumed was a fairly heavy piece, but I've never owned one so can't be sure. The fact that you have four neck rings appears to be at odds with the pix in Phelps Warren, which assume you don't have. The 'target' stopper is correct period. Presume you don't have McConnell either ;D
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You say the neck rings are moulded, are you sure? If you stick your finger in the neck - don’t get stuck ;D - if the rings are moulded you should feel the indentation on the inside where the glass has been blown into the mould? If it’s moulded that might account for it feeling light, but I believe moulded neck rings would be a 20th century feature.
It looks like the stopper has a hollow peg, is that the case? Also, does the top of the peg of the stopper sit far below the top rim of the bottle?
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Thanks for replying lots too go off great ;) The base has a slight kick only slight when viewed from the side of the bottle. The inside of the bottle when i put fingers inside i could feel the indentations as mentioned this should mean it is mold blown and maybe helps with the lower weight. The size is not a large decanter only 7.5" to top of the bottle. This curious decanter has had me confused ever since i purchased it with a couple of other early decanters one was a Cork glass co one with the mark to the base and an early 18th Bohemian liquor engraved globe decanter which confuses more i know...The Cork marked one is molded to the lower part of the decanter as many Irish decanters were made. The stopper does sit a few mm below the top rim and it is hollow maybe 1/4" at most though.
I must say this has a good grey color to it without trying to confuse matters more :)
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I’ve not been through McConnell but in the Miller’s Checklist book, West says about Regency Decanters that “..there were revivals of the Regency style in the 1880s and 1930s. Often too bright in colour, they have neck rings that are moulded out of the body rather than applied...”. My feeling is the moulded neck rings makes the body date to at least around 1900.
The hollow stopper peg is a modern feature isn’t it? Not sure it matters as if the top of the peg sits almost 1/4 inch bellow the top the neck, I would say it is a replacement - regardless of how well it fits otherwise. Apart from the peg being low in the neck, aesthetically the bulls eye disk looks too close to the bottle rim to me.
It does look old though, sounds like you got some other interesting Decanters with it.
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There are a few of these neck ring decanters coming up in the thread I have running on the 1928 Army Navy catalogue
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according to McConnell, the hollow base to the stopper (taster peg) goes back to George III (last quarter C18), so this one - assuming it's the original - would not be a problem.
Neil - do you think the bowl shown in your catalogue page is intended to be a finger bowl? But, I'm still puzzled by the fact that the decanter here has four neck rings - which don't think I've seen before. Perhaps the large bottom one isn't intended to be a neck ring>
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Yes it's a finger bowl on the 1928 pic
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thanks - not the shape that I'm accustomed to seeing, but thought a good chance it was. All rinsers and fingers bowls I see have a parallel straight sides with a bottom curve leading to the foot area.
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I’ve not come across a ‘taster peg’ yet, I’ll keep an eye out, interesting thanks. The stopper may well be collectible on its own.
Paul, what do you think of the moulded neck rings? What’s the earliest date for those in your view?
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Am also puzzled at the four rings on this decanter i have read that four are rarer somewhere i can't for the life of me remember but i can say that when i have had four ring necks in the past they were always cut and not molded like this odd bod here, I have taken a picture with the others i purchased it is next to a genuine Cork marked one and the colors is similar to it.
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Ekimp - sorry, really not sure about dating of moulded neck rings - there seems little in the books to help - though it would be easy to say that it came about more or less the same time that industrial methods gave massive boost to press-moulding c. 1840 ish., but I don't think that would be true - always possible that moulding for neck rings presented some difficulties in the early C19.
There are moulded bottles from v. early C19, but captions seem quiet on the subject of whether the rings were applied or moulded, and not easy to see just from pix in books. I think there were many instances of prefigured blanks that were pressed but still had rings applied. At a guess, which isn't a v.g. way of doing things, I'd suggest c. 1830 - 1850/
yes, agree that taster pegs probably collectible on their own - picture attached of my one and only, as must have parted with the others. this one is about 5.5 inches long (c. 14 cms.) and has the cavity at the opposite end to the one here - in view of size think it might have been designed with something special in mind. Think you might get p ... on two or three of these and always an idea that you might walk around with this in your pocket when visiting friends and sampling their booze discreetly. ;)
You have some nice glass LEGSY - very envious here. Don't think I've ever read anything about four neck rings, but often forget what I have read.
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Thanks Paul. So moulded neck rings probably later than the date indicated by the style of decoration. Yes, doesn’t seem much in the books. I would’ve thought McConnell would have a chapter on reproductions.
The tasting cup on the outside of the bottle seems more hygienic than one that gets put back in the neck :)
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hmmm - my own opinion would be that keeping the cavity inside the bottle might be more hygenic - that way dust or germs wouldn't get into the part meant for the booze - but of course in these days of Covid and Omicron probably best not to use it. ;D
I've looked through McConnell but really nothing I could see that helps with moulded rings, and agree this seems remarkable - perhaps he wasn't sure about dates too. Oh well, here's to the next bottle we might find, and hoping it's a good 'un.
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;)Thanks for all the comments a tidy sum of information i will add any that i come to find when i get
chance to check my books i will find it i think its a Thomas Rohan book that its in but need to look.
All the best Dan
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I would think if the blank was blown moulded it would most likely be a piece mould and there may be some evidence of a mould mark.
I must say, I never seen or heard of an early blown moulded decanter with cutting and engraving. Doesn't mean it was not done. It looks like it could be a early one.
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I have a vague recollection that it's suggested that applied rings should show indication of where the ring was started and finished - not that I've looked yet, but will make the effort to do so.
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Not always as obvious as pictured here. The "folds" are really just a slight cooling of the glass from start to finish of the applied ring I believe. Cannot be felt on the surface, but you may see evidence at this juncture that the ring was applied by looking up or down at the ring as it lays against the body of the decanter.