Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: antonizz on January 14, 2022, 10:31:11 PM
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Hi everybody,
I have bought a campana-style vase online last week.
To some of you my name might sound familiar, due to the many opaline glass related posts I've placed here.
I almost only buy opaline glass.
Now on the pictures it looked like some biedermeier opaline I had.
The pictures weren't that great. But today I received it, and I was dissapointed to see that
there was the part of the glass broken off. The seller hadn't mentioned that in the description.
Only a chip that was off, was mentioned.
Now this glass seems very soapy. Even on the place were it's damaged.
It's soapy all through out. (If that's good English)
But it's not polished or anything, and it's surface isn't smooth.
I haven't seen anything like this before.
I've also bought it as French opaline glass, from the 19th century.
And the style might be a mix of French and Bohemian, but it highly doubt
that it's that old. I think it's molded glass, and the metal mount are
detachable with little screws.
It's just the glass itself that raises serious questions to me.
It looks like opaline, but I don't think it is.
It might be some later fabricated crap.
But what?
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More pics..
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Hi There we find it so difficult without holding glass to really get to know a piece from the photographs
as you have taken a few i have looked hard and i am thinking it looks quite a lot like Alabaster glass.
There are many companies who produced this in many countries. I have just looked on the Loetz website
and they made Alabaster glass early early on but sadly i could not see any with metal mounts fitted so i am thinking
whether this metal mounted form might be of a French maker sorry i am just speaking my mind nothing
firm i am afraid. But i would like to know more and i am sure someone else will come along who knows more :)
Good luck with your search
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Hi,
Yes, of course. Don't mind. Any help is welcome.
I am aware of alabaster glass. It's a little hard to tell what is opaline and what is alabaster glass.
I got a couple of items myself.
Most opaline are from France. Officially ònly French glass from a certain period can be called opaline.
But you see it come back in Italy later on as well. Also the milkglass lampshades etc. are called opaline.
Then from outside of France, mainly bohemia and countries arround, you see opaline glass ànd alabaster glass.
It hard to tell. But when a piece isn't as smooth as the real deal, often I call it alabaster glass. Linked to opaline.
Maybe I'm making up my own rules here, it's easier to see than to tell. Then you also got another term 'bristol glass'.
But... this piece is just weird. :P
I don't believe it alabaster glass.
In the pictures it like this:
https://www.etsy.com/nl/listing/1110473577/zeldzame-antieke-opaline-glazen-bierpul?click_key=f913d3ac493c4575e268d3b6518f08fc76612c7c%3A1110473577&click_sum=6da26bf0&ref=shop_home_active_11
It's a piece from my shop.
You can also see the rest of my items there.
Thanks for your help! ;)
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Hi - sorry to hear of your problems with this piece. We have spilled much ink on these pages discussing pastel shaded translucent glass which is described variously as opaline, opal, opalescent, milk glass and alabaster and confusion will no doubt continue, mostly because many of us no longer take the trouble to learn about glass, and I mean really learn - almost any piece of coloured glass is now described as opaline.
On my screen this piece has a satinized surface finish, an appearance that was fashionable in the U.K. (and possibly elsewhere of course) from the 1920s on mass-produced mould made glass, and U.K. glass maker Bagley produced many designs with this finish - an effect whereby sandblasting gave a slightly textured surface all over while acid etching produced a silky opaque finish. This piece doesn't look to be old, though I've no idea as to its age- it might be recent, or have a little age. I'm simply making the observation that the surface here appears to be satinized (acid or sandblasted) over a moulded body - and assume your 'soapy' might equate to my satinized - but this piece does not have the appearance of opaline, which should show as a highly reflective surface with some translucence. But, all of this you will know of course, and from your words it appears your judgment was affected by "the pictures that weren't that great". You'll also know that opaline pieces did often have gilt/ormolu mounts, but here the condition of the mount looks exceptionally good for the C19. Your German/Bohemian C19 blue beer mug/tankard showing in your link is how opaline should appear - though I'm unsure as to why you describe this as opaline/alabaster - surely it's either one or the other?
""Alabaster is described as a type of ornamental translucent glass developed by Frederick Carder at Steuben glass works in the 1920s. It resembles the mineral (alabaster, so usually white), after which it was named, with iridescence produced by spraying with stannous chloride before re-heating at the fire (furnace)."" So, aside from the fact that alabaster probably wasn't produced in deep pastel colours, then your beer can will also not be alabaster since it was made (most likely) in the wrong century. ;D
But, back to your disappointing purchase - you should really request a refund since the appearance of the item here doesn't qualify it as opaline - but we all make mistake - it's part of how we acquire experience and knowledge - people who don't make mistakes don't usually make anything. Wish you luck.
Grateful if you are able to explain your reference to 'Bristol Glass'. In the U.K. we use this expression - mostly - to describe glass of a very deep rich blue - not the blue of your beer mug - and for which the recipe included smalt (cobalt oxide apparently) - however bristol colours also include dark green and red. thanks.
definition of alabaster taken from Harold Newman's 'An Illustrated Dictionary Of Glass'.
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Hi Paul,
Thank you for your reply.
You're absolutely right about about the real learning part. I definitely didn't.
To make it even funnier, there's also "Opaline de Foire", which is a poor man's opaline.
These are the molded milky glass things, made by Vallerysthal etc.
Back to piece itself..
You mentioned the satinized finish. That's what I thought at first.
But the things is.. if it was only a finish on the outside, then the part were the piece was broken off, it should be
untreated within. This really looks like a mix between opaline, alabaster glass and what not.
I'm sure it's made somewhere in the 20th century. Can't name a country.
The later opalines are mostly from Italy. But the brace-shape top is more Bohemian.
Yesterday, I have indeed made a request to return the item. I paid about € 380 for it.
I also said I doubted the dating and even the material.
Just now I receive a reply saying that it's:
Opaline glass, from the Louis Philippe era, about 1845.
,,En verre granité comme a fait baccarat ou saint Louis".
(Granite glass, like Baccarat or Saint-Louis made it.)
I never heard of this 'verre granité'. It's probably like satin finish or crackle finish.
A quick search didn't really discover anything.
About the alabaster glass;
I do struggle with this though. I also didn't know that it was 'invented' in the 1920's.
I have to say there are pieces from the 19th century, which I myself describe as opaline/alabaster glass.
Now why I do that? Because something in me says, this is alabaster glass, more than opaline.
But it would still go for opaline. Therefore I'm putting the "/" in the description.
Plus, I don't only do that to white pieces, like for example the blue beer jug.
I will try to explain my thoughts here, because I feel like there ìs a difference between the 2 sorts of glass.
Maybe I'm wrong about the opaline-alabaster distinction. But there is a difference.
The opalines from France, I have the least trouble with. Sometimes I could still be wrong, but most of the times I'm right.
I recognize the style. The glass itself. The era. And I have 2 opaline books, and a self-made database to go with.
(Once again, I'm the one who learned only from pictures. Little to no reading.)
Now the glass that I described as alabaster glass, or at least I'm unsure about:
This glass has the appearance of opaline glass. It mostly online goes as opaline glass.
I'll find some pieces online, and sum up some links under here as I write.
I would describe it as, more cloudy glass. Troubled glass. With more bubbles inside.
Also it has, I don't know how to say it in English... It has streaks/wipes/smudges/fades in it.
Unfortunately (or not) I have sold most of my boxes the last month, so I don't have anything to show right now.
I'll try to find pictures of my old boxes.
It has sort of change or transition in the glass, like lithyalin glass has.
But, other than lithyalin glass, these are transitions with the same color.
Which you could also simply see as 'lower quality' glass.
It's hard to keep my finger on it, but thàt to me is the difference.
(The bristol glass discussion, I don't really have any facts on to really discuss it.
I just know what the mainstreams sees as bristol glass. And it's not only limited to deeper colors.)
I could easily be wrong with it, but maybe I'll show some examples later, of what I think it is.
In the pictures is a white opaline glass? :P box.
This is what I would call either opaline or alabaster glass.
It has some bubbles and imperfections in it. Also the 'swipes' but that not visible in pictures, unfortunately.
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.............. and I thought my posts were long ;D ;D Obviously you have more experience and hands on regarding opaline than me - but I would still maintain that true opaline should have a highly reflective surface and not a satinized finish as appears on this piece. I had also always believed that, due to the make-up of opaline, there should be a 'sunset glow' (transmitted fire coloured glow) when held to a strong light source.
Like you I too don't understand the seller's response, and can only suggest that you ask for some proof of providence to support their C19 attribution.
Your box looks good, and whilst not a strong pastel colour the fact that it's 'white' doesn't mean it's not opaline - I assume it's slightly translucent. You do seem to have some 'troubled glass', though regret unlikely we are able to help further.
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:) There is something about the whole thing that screams "made yesterday" to me.
But I am ignorant about opaline glass and older work.
The metalwork is far too shiney bright.
The undeclared damage should be sufficient for you to get your refund. You have it in your hands and you're not happy with it.
You know what you like and what you want, and you are very unsure about this. I'd say you should trust your feelings. :)
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I have to acknowledge this..
The seller just told me. I might have translated it wrong.
It says in the description, something like: There's a small chip off under the rim.
I thought it said at the rim.
But to define small...
There's a obvious chip off, which I thought he/she meant.
I'll show you the pictures.
There's a small chip, and a big piece.
Now the big piece that's broken off wasn't photographed. The small one was.
Anyway, they've accepted my refund.
In my opinion, if there's a big piece off, shouldn't place it to the backside when making pictures,
like some auction houses do.
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But this whole piece is gone..
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Opaline glass can be shiny or satin (matt) finished.
shiny here c.1840s/1850:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=50027.0;attach=115370;image
matt here - blue vase in the middle:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=53085.0;attach=132746;image
Opaline glass was produced in Bohemia as well as France (and other countries as well). Opaline is a translucent glass.
Alabaster glass was produced in Bohemia in the Biedermeier period (early 1800s). Especially by Annathal and also Adolfshutte bei Winterberg iirc. and is known as alabasterglas.
Bohemian Alabasterglas comes in various colours not just white. It is translucent glass but does not have a fiery glow to it when held up to light.
Example here of one of my pieces:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=71293.0;attach=245363;image
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,71293.msg396901.html#msg396901
Example here on page 10:
http://www.glas-forschung.info/pageone/pdf/farbglas.pdf
Opaline glass can have a fiery glow when held up to light or it may not. I have the blue opaline vase (linked earlier in this post) that has a matt surface (19th century ) but that has no fiery glow when held up to light.
I have a smaller piece of French opaline glass from Bercy that has a bright red glow when held up to light, dating to the early 1800s. It is opaline glass but has a fiery glow to it.
Examples of Montcenis turquoise blue opalines from very early 1800s here (my piece is Bleu Lavande in colour not turquoise):
https://www.creusotmontceautourisme.fr/sites/creusot-montceau/files/styles/gallery_lightbox/public/content/images/musee_de_lhomme_et_de_lindust_4.jpg?itok=61LnvNCa
My two blue pieces are both opaline glass but one has a fiery glow, the other doesn't because the batch was made up with other compounds which made it opaline but not fiery (no lead arsenate?)
See Walter Spiegl explanations for details and comparison to Opal glas or opaline glass. See also previous information I have posted from Marco Verita
Page 10
http://www.glas-forschung.info/pageone/pdf/farbglas.pdf
I don't know where your vase was made but I can understand your query - the base looks mold made. It's possible the whole thing was mold made perhaps? It's not easy to see any cutting on the edges of the castellated rim. Perhaps it was acid etched after being made and cut?
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sometimes m I think your efforts are almost wasted on us lesser mortals - congratulations on such comprehensive work. As we've seen before in our discussions on these related C19 glass types, there seem to be almost limitless variations on what constitutes valid criteria for inclusion, leaving us to wonder how little - at times - doesn't qualify, for example, as opaline.
I'm big on taxonomy - it's comforting for me to know where something stands in the overall scheme of things - how it's classified and why - but reading many of the definitions, mostly for coloured glass relating to types where 'opal' is a prefix, leaves me feeling that almost anything qualifies.
And, herein lies a problem not only for collectors who struggle to understand this umbrella of inclusion, but at the same time gives the seller carte blanche to use as defense when accused of mis-selling.
With such a wide range of criteria, I think the op here, will struggle to convince his seller that something isn't right - and for the same reasons it's why so many folk who post here and on-line, refer to much coloured glass as opaline.
Genuine French opaline - from Baccarat for example - fetches big bucks and by association this 'worth' too often attaches to anything that's described as opaline.
In recent years the Board's links and explanations relating to similar coloured glass appear to have made it impossible now to separate original C19 forms of glass bearing 'type' descriptions from later copies and variations which are of lesser interest and value, and probably don't qualify as the genuine article. Not the least reason for this is that possibly it's no longer known how the originals were made.
thank goodness I mostly collect clear glass, though assume of course that in view of your hard work in all these areas you do know 100% more than we do. :)
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Later versions of opaline glass would I guess still fall under the opaline umbrella but I think iirc correctly, Ivo stated that they should always be handblown to qualify as opaline. I also recall that if it is cased it would not fall under the opaline umbrella.
However in contrast, again if I recall correctly, I remember seeing some Clichy glass referred to as opaline in the book and it is neither very translucent and is also cased colour over white I think. I'll look it up in the Cristallerie de Clichy book and see if I can provide a link to those items .
So in theory there aren't that many 20th century pieces that fall under hand blown, translucent, one colour, coloured in the batch and not cased. At least not that many I've ever come across. Stevens and Williams 'alabaster' range being one and Steuben ?alabaster? being the other.
Then there are the mid 20th century Italian pieces which I think Ivo said were known as Opalina.
The desirability of the early opalines (early 1800-about 1850 - both in France and in Bohemia) for me is that they were experimental, they will never be made again, and they were rare and unusual because, especially in the earlier part of that time frame, the individual houses were all making their own colour recipes and the colours were generally exquisite and expensive to produce. Some are more translucent than others. I have an alabasterglas piece c.1840 that might look to be opaque on camera but is in fact translucent when you view it in real life. Likewise the small blue v. early French piece. Looks opaque on first glance but is incredibly translucent. That was a part of their beauty I think.
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thanks - beauty in glass is something that always makes a piece desirable - along with rarity - I recall the lines from one of the Indian Jones films .... "If I take this cheap watch bought in the market for a dollar or two, and bury it in the sand for a thousand years it becomes priceless. I'd suggest that with some areas of glass collecting, buying without seeing something in the flesh, can be asking for trouble - it shouldn't of course, but human nature being what it is we should know to exercise caution. I think the piece here is a good example - perhaps the op might not have bought this one had they been able to handle the item.
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There is an odd disconnect in the vase so I can see why the query. It looks at the top, like a cut faceted/panel cut body with a cut crenallated rim vase made in the Biedermeier period. However the metalwork looks later than that. Also the pedestal base, formed in a mold and square also doesn't feel quite right - it could be right, I don't know, but it would raise an odd question for me if I was buying it.
There is an opaline vase here being sold as c.1860 that has similarly decorative metalwork:
https://www.antiquesboutique.com/antique-opaline-glass/antique-palais-royal-white-opaline-vase-with-blue-opaline-baubles/itm10411#.YeQ0Qf7P1PY
Without seeing it it's difficult to know what the opaline 'feels' like. Very difficult to judge glass online really. It looks to me as though it could be crizzled but then the close ups are not showing that either.
And then again, that level of work (crenallated rim cut, cut and faceted body) on a later vase? I can't see that somehow either. Well maybe up to 1860s but not much later really.
A difficult one made more so by the decorative metalwork and the square pedestal which looks molded/mold blown. hmmm.
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Antonizz can you upload your photos to 600 x 400 pixels if you do any more please? It makes it easier to see the detail :)
Also, do you have the Harrach book 'From Neuwelt to the Whole World'?
There is a vase in there dated 1844 that it reminds me of a little in terms of shape and design. page 122.
There are also vases on page 157 that have some similarities in shape and cutting- a little. They were exhibited at the Great Exhibition in London in 1851 and bought from there directly for the collections of the Musée des Arts et Métiers in Paris. So something like that could explain why the vase looks Bohemian in design and cutting but appears to have, what might be perceived as (I'm not great at metalwork so could be wrong), French metalwork on it hence the disconnect in design and presentation.
m
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Later versions of opaline glass would I guess still fall under the opaline umbrella but I think iirc correctly, Ivo stated that they should always be handblown to qualify as opaline. I also recall that if it is cased it would not fall under the opaline umbrella.
However in contrast, again if I recall correctly, I remember seeing some Clichy glass referred to as opaline in the book and it is neither very translucent and is also cased colour over white I think. I'll look it up in the Cristallerie de Clichy book and see if I can provide a link to those items .
So in theory there aren't that many 20th century pieces that fall under hand blown, translucent, one colour, coloured in the batch and not cased. At least not that many I've ever come across. Stevens and Williams 'alabaster' range being one and Steuben ?alabaster? being the other.
Then there are the mid 20th century Italian pieces which I think Ivo said were known as Opalina.
The desirability of the early opalines (early 1800-about 1850 - both in France and in Bohemia) for me is that they were experimental, they will never be made again, and they were rare and unusual because, especially in the earlier part of that time frame, the individual houses were all making their own colour recipes and the colours were generally exquisite and expensive to produce. Some are more translucent than others. I have an alabasterglas piece c.1840 that might look to be opaque on camera but is in fact translucent when you view it in real life. Likewise the small blue v. early French piece. Looks opaque on first glance but is incredibly translucent. That was a part of their beauty I think.
Just adding that I think some Loetz tango glass was also opaline as well - can't remember and don't have anything left to check with now, but I had a pink bowl with a black rim and I think that was not cased in clear.
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Later versions of opaline glass would I guess still fall under the opaline umbrella but I think iirc correctly, Ivo stated that they should always be handblown to qualify as opaline. I also recall that if it is cased it would not fall under the opaline umbrella.
However in contrast, again if I recall correctly, I remember seeing some Clichy glass referred to as opaline in the book and it is neither very translucent and is also cased colour over white I think. I'll look it up in the Cristallerie de Clichy book and see if I can provide a link to those items .
So in theory there aren't that many 20th century pieces that fall under hand blown, translucent, one colour, coloured in the batch and not cased. At least not that many I've ever come across. Stevens and Williams 'alabaster' range being one and Steuben ?alabaster? being the other.
Then there are the mid 20th century Italian pieces which I think Ivo said were known as Opalina.
The desirability of the early opalines (early 1800-about 1850 - both in France and in Bohemia) for me is that they were experimental, they will never be made again, and they were rare and unusual because, especially in the earlier part of that time frame, the individual houses were all making their own colour recipes and the colours were generally exquisite and expensive to produce. Some are more translucent than others. I have an alabasterglas piece c.1840 that might look to be opaque on camera but is in fact translucent when you view it in real life. Likewise the small blue v. early French piece. Looks opaque on first glance but is incredibly translucent. That was a part of their beauty I think.
La Cristallerie de Clichy - Roland Dufrenne, Jean Maes, Bernard Maes - see page 255, 261, 262 and there are other examples of their opalines in the pages between which are not cased
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/La_Cristallerie_de_Clichy/KEYMY4_ytuUC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=cristallerie+de+clichy&printsec=frontcover
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Bohemian Alabasterglas comes in various colours not just white. It is translucent glass but does not have a fiery glow to it when held up to light.
Example here of one of my pieces:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=71293.0;attach=245363;image
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,71293.msg396901.html#msg396901
Your piece looks like a Bohemian version of some Baccarat pieces I've had before. I'm sure the green glass contains uranium.
Here are a couple of links that you might find interesting:
1) https://www.catawiki.com/nl/l/50896611-baccarat-of-saint-louis-opaline-suikerpot-sucrier-meloen-louis-philippe-glas-uranium-opaline
2) https://www.boisgirard-antonini.com/recherche?language=fr&query=+opaline+sucrier&isvisible=&ok=Rechercher&myGroup=1&actuDatefilter=&venteType=all&ordre=pertinence
3) https://parisianhoursofidleness.wordpress.com/2015/05/01/treasures-of-sand-and-fire/#jp-carousel-915
4) http://www.auctioneve.com/en/search?language=en&query=opaline+sucrier&isvisible=&ok=Search&myGroup=1&actuDatefilter=&venteType=all&ordre=pertinence
5) https://in.pinterest.com/pin/570127634076651948/
6) https://www.alexiaamatoantiques.com/en-GB/sold---french-opaline-glass/antique-french-white-and-blue-opaline-glass-pear-shaped-casket-box/prod_11478#.YeYljv7MKUk
I didn't find a exact similar one.
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You guys give me a lot of reading to do :P
To my knowledge;
Officially, only glass from France, made in a certain period in the 19th century should be called opaline.
Even though pieces were made later, and in other countries. They might even be made with the same receipe,
OFFICIALLY it's only French.
It indeed can be either shiny or matte. It can also be a little translucent, or opaque.
The translucent version is called 'bulle de savon' opaline, which is a little see-through.
It can be milky/soapy or not at all. And it doesn't always have the fiery glow. Many do. Many don't.
There are some nice translucent pieces to find online, called 'clair de lune'. (Moonlight)
Just like opaline in general, not all the pieces described a clair de lune are so in fact.
Now to make it more complicated;
I have no idea how to see or to know. I have a opaline glass box, made by Baccarat.
In the book "les Opalines", by Christine Vincendeau, it's described as 'demi-cristal d'opale savonneux'.
That's something like 'soapy opal half-crystal'.
Either in this book, or the other one I have (L'Opaline Francaise au XIXe Siècle, by Yolande Amic)
seen that there are receipes in it. For how to get certain colors.
I haven't translated these books, and I don't speak French :p
It's also known that french opaline become more popular, I think, around 1835.
Anyway, in the Napoleon III era. It was then when new colors were created, and the production was increased.
So some later pieces could technically be dated after 1830 on color alone, if you'd knew all the facts properly.
(By the way I don't own any other books then these 2)
My newest miytery is how to tdistinguish Russian and French opaline from each other
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Can highly recommend the book Baguiers et Verres a Boire du XIXeme siecle, Leon Darnis - published 2014.
http://www.verre-histoire.org/2014/12/24/baguiers-et-verres-a-boires-du-xixe-siecle-par-leon-darnis/
As well as covering opalines in detail including makers, the book shows a huge range of colours especially for the period up to 1830 and discusses the key makers of that time in detail. Many many coloured photographs.
Thank you for the links to the 'sucriers'. They're gorgeous.
m
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Thanks! ;D