Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: thewingedsphinx on February 19, 2022, 04:27:13 PM
-
Would be grateful for any help with this Registered design 29th May 1872 likely Manchester opaque blue Dolphin Oil lamp base.
I don’t seem to be able to find it in the national archives although the lozenge is class 1 for metal rather than glass and very clear. It’s of a similar appearance to a Vaseline piano insulator I have.
if you google “London dolphin lamps” you’ll see ones on the river thames that this pattern is based upon which makes me think of Derbyshire landseer lions etc and the Sphinx and cleopatras needle on the embankment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin_lamp_standard
Thanks Mike
-
I'm a bit confused. If the lozenge is class 1 for metal, then couldn't it relate to the metalwork that went with the lampbase?
If so, then the lampbase glass could have been from anywhere including imported couldn't it? Plenty of silver and silver plate stuff was marked with English maker makers but put onto Czech handblown glass for example.
m
-
Yes I know, I’m confused too that’s why it’s interesting . But on another hand we have an oil lamp which would have been sold as a “Brinks”oil lamp because of the burner mechanism and possibly because they assembled it all together but the base and font were unmarked and made by F C Osler. Osler also let the same base be used by Samuel Clarke’s Fairylamps “ multiple fairly lamp stand like a candelabra which would also have been sold as Clarke’s not F C Osler. So perhaps the lamp had to have a class 1 mark on it for the maker of the Burner ?.. I guess. The blue colour is quite unusual and similar to rare Manchester pieces like James Derbyshire and Ker and Webb, before John Derbyshire who started marking his pieces from 1873.
Still confused Mike
-
Actually I didn't think that through - the reg mark is on the glass whereas on blown pieces it would be on the metalwork. Hmmm.
I know it's been discussed on here before that sometimes glassmakers regd under the wrong class - I can't remember whether it was mooted that this might have been to avoid competitors copying designs or something? So perhaps it might fall under that reason.
That blue is pretty lovely and distinctive. I couldn't find any other examples searching online for it. Do you have any other examples in that blue?
m
-
The dolphin modelling is quite unusual. The snout is unusual. The ribs on the lamp remind me of I think some pressed glass from Buquoy. And I'm also thinking Jasmine vases here where I think they had this ribbing.
The blue is like a French blue called Bleu Drapeau.
There is this version of dolphin from Meyr's Neffe that has a similar snout for example although the rest of the dolphin isn't the same modelling around the face. Hard to tell definitively as your photos aren't close enough and the Pressglas Korrespondenz is slightly out of focus when enlarged:
seite 46
https://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2002-4w-sg-buquoy-glashuetten.pdf
-
Here is an unmarked Victoria often associated with John Derbyshire, many of the Derbyshire figurines have makers marks in opaque blue like this colour also there are registered designs by other Manchester makers including Burtles and Tate and Ker and Webb in this colour. So I think it’s a Manchester piece? The date is right for this era for blue.
-
As a matter of interest is that the same as this one?
The face looks different and the head looks at a different angle although that could just be the perspective of the photograph angle.
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/rogersjones/catalogue-id-rogers10372/lot-66a20c3e-01b7-43da-998e-ae23010a5c63#lotDetails
-
Not it’s from my fathers collection, here’s a link to a Burtles Tate piece of the same colour.
https://www.yobunny.org.uk/glassgallery/displayimage.php?pos=-25695
-
Oh my word ... that's weird!! Like a hand rising out of a grave in a dracula film ;D Is it a ring stand?
Ok, I see what you mean re the colour and English makers.
I know photos are difficult but is the Victoria an identical blue to the dolphin base? It looks slightly lighter. I know, different batches etc, but still.
Here is a Jasmine vase in the blue just so you see an example of what I meant :)
https://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2017-1w-jakob-jasminvase-neugotik-opalin-1830.pdf
mm, just thinking it through - do you know of any other examples of pressed glass pieces with dolphin bases from English makers? For example, I can think of three Bohemian makers off the top of my head. Not saying it's Bohemian at all, just that I can think of those, plus a French maker but no English makers spring to mind, but then I don't 'do' pressed glass. Just wondering if you knew of any other pieces in different colours or clear for example?
-
So ... this is a Portieaux Vallerysthal figure face:
https://www.rubylane.com/item/826772-RL-0001225/Pair-Portieux78-Vallerysthal-P-V-Blue
it's different to yours of course, however I'm just wondering if yours is maybe not a dolphin? Might it be another kind of fish/stylised beast because it has what appears to be a mane or flowing hair or fins from under the snout/nose. I was just showing the PV items to show they also look different to Dolphins or what I think of as dolphins ???
-
There are registered designs by both Derbyshire and Molineaux Webb for stands which could support Tazza s etc and the reference of Richardson’s in Hajdamachs book but this is the only one which wraps around a pole like the ones in the photo around The river Thames. Checkout the first link.
-
Dad actually has a Portieux one already in clear but a Tazza support rather than candlestick,Baccarat also make similar. Thanks Mike
-
Here is a Portieux one.
-
ok, have looked at the link in the first post now - sorry.
Yes I can see that it would be a good assumption that they were based on that. The snout of the beast is remarkably similarly modelled as well. It says on Wiki that they are sturgeons. (I should have read that link first :-[ )
So ... they are sturgeons then not dolphins.
m
-
I quite agree they could be sturgeon’s or Gurnards as they don’t look like dolphins but anything fishy from this era on glass seem to be labelled Dolphins , wasn’t there some kind of law about not catching sturgeon’s from the Thames ?
-
So 'George John Vulliamy (19 May 1817 – 1886) was a British architect who designed some buildings in Victoria Street London, several fire-brigade stations, the pedestal and sphinxes for Cleopatra's Needle on the Thames Embankment, and the sturgeon lamp posts (colloquially "dolphin lamp posts") that line the embankment.' Source Wikipedia.
So is that the link? The Cleopatra's Needle Sphinxes and the Sturgeon base? Therefore did George John Vulliamy give the glassmaker permission to copy the design? or can you find a link to him designing something for one of the factories?
-
Could be?
Molineaux and Webb registered a Sphinx a couple of years after this design, the St. Louis Sphinx is kind of similar ( dad has examples of both). Glass makers of this time used iconic sculptures for their wares, done weren’t registered because they may have infringed on the original idea.
You can find examples of the above Sphinxes already on here.
-
Yes, I remember reading about the various sphinx discussions.
His sturgeons are 'snub-nose' sturgeons according to this link (source - Linda Hall Library) and they do not exist.
So ... given that the modelling of your lamp is a non-existent 'snub-nose sturgeon' as well, there has to be a link somewhere. Either his patent ran out or was never patented, or the glassmaker thought they'd make a good souvenir?
https://www.lindahall.org/george-vulliamy/
Scientist of the Day - George Vulliamy
May 19,2015
Can you find out what the patent is via the metal class patent? That might tell you as the glass company may have deliberately registered it in the wrong class.
Also he designed the camel benches as well. Any makers made camels that you know of?
It might be worth having a good look to see if anyone copied his sphinx exactly as iirc there are differences with all of them. I'm thinking that angle because someone seems to have replicated his Sturgeon design with great abandon. I mean it's not exactly a small piece that wouldn't get noticed is it? Like say a Burtles and Tate swan or something.
I wondered if his might have been similar to the Saint-Louis Sphinx? didn't that come in a matt black? Nope not the same modelling.
-
Unfortunately I only have the font no burner so I’m a bit lost how to progress further. Mol Webb sphinxes come in clear, frosted and black St. Louis ones some in all sorts of colours clear, clear blue, purple and blue malachite versions. I’ll continue my quest tomorrow thanks for the links.
-
see also this piece in blue opaline glass on the board here gmb - a vase with sphinxes modelled in black on the sides. Just in case it comes in handy as it looks to be the bright blue opaline:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,40921.msg226768.html#msg226768
-
are these the MW sphinxes ?
https://www.ukauctioneers.com/auction_catalogue.cfm?d&itemID=20E9CB0FD7D62DF8D4E7FECEFF580FECED26ABC9&auction=21EBCE0DD7&showLots=50&sortBy=estimate_high&lotView=list&imagesOnly=N
-
Yes they are.
-
Thank you :) They don't look the same at all do they unfortunately.
On the reg date info:
I have no idea how these registrations worked in practise, however just to note Percival Vickers registered a design on 30th May 1872
http://www.great-glass.co.uk/glass%20notes/lozenge3.htm
Number: 263032
Percival, Vickers & Co
30-May-72
parcel : 7
The closest date before that is 11 May 1872 John Derbyshire
-
Thanks, Yes I’ve checked out that list, remember they are probably all class 3 for glass. We are close?
So near but so far..
-
Yes, that's what I mean ... I don't know how they worked really but just thought worth noting.
Percival Vickers seems to have done a dolphin vase here:
http://www.victorianpressedglass.com/gallery_other.htm
I wonder what the reg number is for it?
ah, apparently date code for 1874
https://picclick.co.uk/Antique-Uranium-Vaseline-Glass-Percival-Vickers-Fish-263888179280.html
-
Yes I won a green one of those the other day, not the same, look at the second row down you will see another blue vase by Burtles Tate similar opaque blue.
-
ah,I don't perceive that as the same blue as the lamp :) It's lighter. I know it's all perception and lighting and batch mixes etc, but I still think it's slightly different.
However ... it could be that a Burtles and Tate link is worth searching for.
Again this is probably a ridiculous question but is it worth looking at who registered metal work designs on the date on the lozenge? or is that an enormous job? It could just be that a glassmaker will be found amongst those registrations.
Apologies if you've already done this.
m
-
Thanks already tried that, what’s frustrating with the archives is that I’ve got the exact date but I still can’t find it from that. But I’m not an expert on that site.
-
Isn't it most likely that the burner will have been a Hinks Duplex for that period?
Example here:
https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/1138513560/stunning-very-large-royal-doulton
No, wait. I can't believe a maker of a pressed glass base put a reg design of an oil burner maker on it's glass. That would be odd. I wonder where the mold came from? Was it a mold for making metal 'snub-nose sturgeon' copy bases first? Is that possible?
m
-
ok some names for you here:
https://baldwinhamey.wordpress.com/2012/12/27/dolphin-lampposts/
The lamps were modelled by C. H. Mabey. C. H. Mabey was a sculpture along with his father and his son. His son appears to have had the same initials however he was born in 1867 so it wouldn't have been him who modelled the lamps.
There is lots more information in the replies/comments on the blog about replicas of the sturgeon lampposts being made also but they are much more recent so not a lot to go on. Worth a read for manufacturers names etc.
(and some discussion over the use of the description 'sturgeon' with one commentator saying that in old references they are called dolphin lamps.)
-
The Builder - November 20 1886 page 724
What appears to be a very comprehensive description of George Vulliamy after his death. Unfortunately having had a read through it, nothing of note to link to your glass base.
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Builder/eztOAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=george+vulliamy&pg=PA724&printsec=frontcover
m
-
Similar idea.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,22187.msg125183.html#msg125183
-
An example of blue Manchester glass, cannot remember off the top of my head but either Derbyshire or Burtles.
Roy
-
I'm sorry but I still think that looks like a very slightly different blue :-[
Re the reg mark on the 'sturgeon' lamp. Might it have been imported?
On the other hand Bernard mentions here, if I've understood it correctly, that sometimes molds made for earthenware designs were transferred to glass and hence have a reg class mark for earthenware. Therefore could the same not be for a metal mold?
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,88.msg255.html#msg255
So it could be worth looking to see if a metal version of your lamp base existed/exists?
m
-
Roy, I had a couple of those bud vases, Neil has a similar registered design by Ker and Webb in blue and I think those vases have a pattern which has been found on a signed Ker Webb pieces. The lamp stand blue is more in line with the Victoria dark blue than the pastey speckled Ker and Webb blue.
I’ll investigate metal registrations in the archives but I’m leaning in the Derbyshire brothers direction due to the colour and your lion with the peg on its head.
-
Variations of Derbyshire opaque blues, thanks to Larry Wilson for the photo.
-
Yes, I'd go with that blue. It looks very similar. Although presumably you are able to match the lamp base to B&T and Derbyshire pieces to see if it's a good match colour wise?
m
-
I think matching the step angular form of the base could be key. It's not a copy of the lamp-post base which is curved.
Did Derbyshire make anything else with this type of base?
I'm also still wondering if the metal-class registered mold came from a metal cast of the lamp base.
-
with some help from Neil the dolphin lamp was made by Wright & Butler (Bristol lampworks Birmingham) rd 262363. Wright and Butler were lamp makers not necessarily glass manufacturers so the glass base was probably made by a different company.
Uk Lamps are usually named after the company that makes the burner rather than the glass accompaniments.
FC Osler made lamp bases that were used on Samuel Clarke Fairly night light holders and the same bases were used on Hinks lamps…
-
Is that rd number for Wright & Butler, the same as the rd lozenge on your glass?
Bohemian makers also made glass for the Samuel Clarke Fairy lights. There are some examples on here I think.
-
Here it is.
-
I’ve also seen one in white in an American Facebook group.
-
Not really relevant but page 164 here - 1873 Wright & Butler advertisement (trade to Japan) saying that they could make up lamps with American burners if required (three little drawings of their lamps):
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Japan_Daily_Mail/6RlDAQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=wright+%26+butler+lamp+1872&pg=PA164&printsec=frontcover
-
And thank you for posting the reference drawing :) it's always so good to see the design and the actual piece.
m
-
Here it is.
That’s a very nice drawing.