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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: mikenott on August 23, 2022, 09:24:38 PM
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Picked up this bust of Shakespeare online recently. On intimal I thought it was a Gillinder bust produced in 1876 but on closer inspection it was the wrong size, shape with design detail differences and it should have had has a moulded inscription. Further digging on pressglas korrespondenz revealed an interesting article on bust produced by the F&C Osler of Birmingham in the mid 19th century (search pressglas korrespondenz shakespear on google) These included Shakespeare, Milton, Peel and Queen Victoria and Prince Albert. My newly acquired bust looks identical to the Shakespeare bust produced by Osler in both the given dimensions, weight and the images shown except that the base of mine has had its base diameter reduced - presumably to remove a chip such as that that exists on the printed images. Coincidence? I had to make some allowances on base diameter and weight for my bust compared to the printed one. There are no marks or inscriptions on the bust I have although they only seem to have been on the larger Albert and Victoria pieces.
What interests me is just how old this bust could be. 1845 to 1851 is the early days of pressed glass and although the bust is solid without any cavity formed by an inner mould it still looks crisp(ish) and good.
Any thoughts or views gratefully received.
Michael
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That is a fantastic find. If you've read Siegmar's article you probably know as much as anybody.
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Hi, out of interest, how has it been frosted? The Victoria and Albert Victoria bust has been ‘given a textured surface by grinding and abrading’. In the U.K., acid frosting was only available as an option from c.1867 when developed by Northwood. Before that, they had to grind/abrade the surface. Ref Hajdamach page 184.
Victoria and Albert museum Victoria bust: https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O2200/queen-victoria-bust-f-c/queen-victoria-bust-f--c/
Here is a link for the pressglas korrespondenz article: https://pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2014-4w-vogt-osler-shakespeare-1851.pdf
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How do you tell the difference? Presumably the V&A busts are frosted all over even if done by grinding/abrading. I will post some macro shots of the surface finish to see if it helps clarify.
Update: Thought I would compare a frosted Derbyshire Greyhound with my bust and the difference is clear. My bust is definitely ground/abraded as it has a very rough surface when compared to the smooth finish of the acid etched greyhound. Will still post images for comparison.
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It's an interesting point on abraided versus acid etched. You can see the difference clearly on some Manchester pieces. Molineaux Webb were slightly ahead on acid etched and most of their 1860s Greek Key pieces have a smooth frosted look, whereas the Percival Vickers ones often look more abraided - see included pic.
Is your piece actually pressed from multiple segments or is it a one piece? I didn't think Osler did "pressed glass" as such.
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That’s interesting. Types of frosting has been a pet subject of mine, this topic is a bit long but goes into the subject: https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,70868.msg397303.html#msg397303
I included a comparison photo in that topic which I’ve added with the text below
“I have a modern (1980s?) Jon Art object that is acid frosted that I was getting ready to post. The photo below shows a closeup of the finish compared to that on the decanter in this topic. The photos are the same scale with a pin shown for comparison. The mechanical abrasion (on the left), I believe leaves a surface that looks like tiny chips, the acid etched finish looks like very fine condensation with more rounded tiny pits. The antique acid frosting may well look different to this though, but I think it should be noticeably different to the mechanical abrasion.”
I should think on your bust, as well as the roughness/scratches ,if abraded there will be small areas that have been missed in the little cavities crevices etc.
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I'm pretty confident it is made from a multiple moveable segment mould, but I am not sure if there was a bottom mould to push the glass into the finer parts of the mould. It does look slightly "soft" in terms of moulding.
As to acid or abrade, I have never really though about it. Intuition says that abrading would be time consuming compared to acid etching, but conversely abrading is much easier if you want to frost an item where you want a "brilliant" effect in the low relief parts - such as in your PV image which (I think) shows that the item was mounted in a rotary device and abraded causing the circular score marks. Perhaps acid etching was not available in the 1850's? If you want an item wholly frosted an acid dip would be easier and cheaper once the acid was available. For some in between items ........??
Of course, both have health and safety issues that would be much more difficult to manage today than in the late 1800's.
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Ekimp - That's exactly the difference I am seeing on my bust versus the Derbyshire greyhound!
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It’s a case of acid frosting not being available as an option in the U.K. before a certain date. Thought that date was c.1867 when the process was developed by Northwood. It would be interesting to know if this was definitely predated by Molineaux Webb. It can be very difficult to tell the difference between acid and abrasive frosting as the abrasive scratches aren’t always obvious and they can have a very smooth texture. I think it depends on the coarseness of the abrasive and the clues can be quite subtle.
In the topic I linked to, there is discussion on a Bakewell Ribbon compote (from reply 55) that turned out to use both acid frosting and abrasive frosting on the same item - so even when acid frosting was available, abrasion could still be the more cost effective option, depending on application.
I agree regarding turning of neilh’s piece.
Might your bust be cast?
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We are in danger of hijacking the thread here on frosting techniques. I had been a bit lazy relying on the books which call Molineaux Webb as being known for their acid etched frosting. Maybe earlier acid pieces have a different look, I can't find any Victorian pieces in my collection that look like the one you showed on the right with the pin.
Included here are closeups of a MW frosted basin 1865 and a MW frosted butter 1880, there appears to be little difference.
Have to agree I don't think Osler's piece is pressed in the usual sense... no evidence they did pressed glass. They were a higher end manufacturer.
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ok you've got me dusting off my cut & moulded Molineaux Webb rather than the pressed stuff. The pic here is from a celery dating to around 1872, an obvious difference to the frosting on the pressed items. Does the roughness of the frosting lines as they hit the clear areas tell us anything as to process?
I also have a couple of earlier cut & moulded frosted celeries I would date to c1860 as to design, though the date of manufacture could be later. The style of frosting matches the photo shown here.
It looks like frosting on mass produced pressed glass was done differently, not something I have considered.
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Ha, yes, I may have even hijacked another thread on the subject of frosting…..
I would say your first two examples (reply 9) used mechanical abrasion where the item being frosted has also been spun against the abrasive - I assume they are circular with no protrusions such as handles to get in the way.
I believe your second example (reply 10) has also been mechanically abraded but without being rotated. It’s difficult when there is a uniform texture like that so would look for other clues like scratches/feathering out at the edge of the frosted areas, scratches where they shouldn’t be, or low areas that have been bridged by the abrasive tool and not completely frosted.
For example, on your celery, there looks like there might be areas where the abrasive has scratched unintended areas, indicated by my arrow. Is that what you meant by the scratches hitting the clear areas?
…then there is also sand blasting to consider.
Nice pictures by the way, very clear - hope it was ok to draw on one.
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I have photographed my (abraded?) Shakespeare bust and my Derbyshire acid etched frosted greyhound. I think the difference is pretty clear but interested to hear others viewpoint. Apologies for colour variation - had to use some Photoshop tools to draw out detail.
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Thanks for showing the photos. I’m not sure, based on what can be seen on the photograph I would say not mechanically abraded but it’s difficult not having it in your hand with a loupe in the other :) I can just about see the streaks you mention but they don’t look very conclusive, just based on the photo.
I would expect to see a few areas that hadn’t been perfectly frosted (that would partly show the original gloss surface of the glass) in the deep areas such as in the corner of the eye - where the abrasive tool hadn’t got into the depth of the cavity. Maybe have a look in the corner round the back where the bust joins the pedestal where perhaps they wouldn’t have been so bothered by the finish.
The texture that can be seen on the side of his head looks quite like the acid frosted finish in my photo?
Has the base been frosted? If not look for scratches where the frosted finish meets the unfrosted areas.
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It says here in this from 1859 that at Osler busts of celebrated men decorated the showroom and that the bright surfaces were removed by abrasion 'after they were cast':
Source - The Official Illustrated Guide to the North-Western Railway - see page 242 (see pages prior for more description of Osler)
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_official_illustrated_guide_to_the_No/6goHAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=f+%26+c+osler+uranium+glass&pg=PA238&printsec=frontcover