Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on September 10, 2022, 04:28:44 PM
-
I'm away so can't post a pic at the moment, but have just bought a glass box that has an XX carefully cut into the rim on the bowl.
I've seen this on pieces before but can't remember where . Pretty sure the box is 1800s.
Anyone know of any information as to why the XX might be cut into the glass please? or have any other examples?
m
-
Depending on the positioning, could it be to ensure that a complete seal did not get created when the lid was placed on top? If it was to keep eg. a live insect in. You'd want air to be able to get in and out.
Or could they be to indicate where somebody else should cut or attach something?
Or Roman for the number 20, to match it with the base, as was done with decanters and matching stoppers?
-
Depending on the positioning, could it be to ensure that a complete seal did not get created when the lid was placed on top? If it was to keep eg. a live insect in. You'd want air to be able to get in and out.
Or Roman for the number 20, to match it with the base, as was done with decanters and matching stoppers?
That's very interesting Sue especially the first suggestion re ensuring the lid and base didn't have a complete seal. Thank you. I cannot for the life of me remember where I've seen this done before but I definitely have. I can't remember if it was on a piece with a lid though. Mine isn't a receptacle for an insect however ensuring it didn't have a complete seal could be a possible reason why nonetheless.
There is no matching XX on the lid and it's definitely a matched lid so I don't think it's the decanter/stopper equivalent marking to be honest.
I'm sure I've seen this on very old glass before though and wondered why it was there. I think there has been at least one other piece on the board with this mark on it. However nothing came up on my searches (where, after your post, I searched as I was trying to see whether that was also on a two part piece).
Food for thought. Thanks so much. I'll post a pic when I get home next week.
m
-
Another thought is, could it indicate a second?
-
I don't think so. It's, at a guess, mid 1800s and in perfect nick and I'm not entirely sure they had seconds then? It's also not an engraved or cut piece, so the mark has been deliberately placed there possibly by the person who cut the rim on the lid and bowl, which is absolutely beautifully done. Perhaps the rim finisher was a no 20 in the wage bill/pay system?
I'm pretty sure I have seen this mark, and more than once, on other antique glass items. I just need to find them!
mxx
-
No, I don't think seconds were permitted then. But I often cannot find any flaws in Caithness seconds.
I even think I might know what you're talking about. ;D But I'm stumped.
-
Thank you Sue. I came home last night and examined it under a strong light and found a matching XX engraved onto the bowl base. Difficult to engrave and indeed to find as the rim of the bowl is cut and polished but curves inwards towards the centre inside of the bowl. The XX has been engraved right at the edge where the pattern and polished rim meet, so it's incredibly hard to see.
So presumably, as you suggested, matching numbers for lid and base. I guess this must have been the polisher's twentieth piece going by the numerals.
I'll put some pictures up later today.
m
-
;D
While reading your comment, it struck me that if the base and lid need to be placed in a particular lined up position to get the decor on both pieces to match and be contiguous, the Xs might indicate the placement?
-
I hope the pics loads up - new phone, new computer and I'm having trouble resizing :-\
Eisglas deckeldose - Crackle or ice glass lidded box
It's a large box - approx 13cm wide (approx 5") by 13.5cm tall
It's been beautifully and carefully finished. The stalk has been hand cut where you can see the cutting marks to shape it,like very fine battuto cut and also the bevel on the top of the edge of the ... merese (?) the blob where it attaches to the lid.
The rim of the base and lid are bevelled and highly polished both with XX engraved into them.
There is a large stone in the glass of the bottom half of the bowl.
Pretty sure it's Bohemian and probably mid 19th.
m
-
see pics above and this one for size v a pink lady apple :) still difficult to show the size really but they are probably sugar boxes as opposed to trinket boxes.
-
;D It's a pumpkin.
I'm a bit confused by your cm measurment figures. 5" is about 13cm, not 23cm.
(I know 20cm is about 8" off by heart. ;)
-
:) Thanks for correcting the size - I've changed it on my post above now :-*
Pumpkin ! yes it is. And I think the green and white one is a Gem Squash :)
There were various fruit and vegetable form bowls produced mid 19th as they were very popular then. I think given the shape, XX marks, the beautiful way it's been finished, the stone in the glass, and the Eisglas decor which was also popular 1850s/60s, it dates to around that period.
It's also in perfect, as new condition remarkably. Never been used. No wear on it at all.
m
-
1) Right here we go with a plainer version of an eisglas dekor box on our board, with engraved roman numerals XXXXVIII !! Knew I'd seen something on the board at some point but that was in 2009!! The OP discusses it being 1948 because of those numbers. I think it's also 1800s and the numbers are just there to match base to lid as with mine.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,25682.msg142067.html#msg142067
2) Just going back to my last post re dates, the sugar box in the Technisches Museum Wien inv. no TH 12106, 12107 was '1840 acquired from Josef Lobmeyr, Vienna' (source, Farbenglas I, Neuwirth) so the fruit/vegetable form sugar boxes date a bit earlier than my comment above. That one sits on a matching leaf shaped plate.
3) I suspect mine could have had an underplate with it as with the green and white one. And because it has the stalk and is supposed to represent a vegetable I think it could have been a plate with a scalloped edge to represent a leaf form/greenery if you see what I mean, rather than a plain rounded rim plate.
4) It's made me think on my other Eisglas pieces. I have a leaf shaped bowl/plate that has a significantly indented oval middle. I've always wondered about these leaf shaped plates and what they were for/why the shape.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,35577.msg193030.html#msg193030
Today it's dawned on me that it they were probably for boxes or salts to sit on. Mine is probably for one of a pair of salts in oval base/foot form or something similar. The indented base is not big enough for a bowl/box base but it would be perfect for something with an oval shaped foot.
My eisglas salts have a round domed hollow foot unfortunately but I'm sure something like those would have come with an oval foot shape as well.
I'll post a pic later to demonstrate my thinking :) (edited - see pic attached)
5) Here's a link to an Eisglas Muschelschale dish - Neuwelt c.1860 for date reference:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/18081483_muschelschale-aus-eisglas
-
;D It's too late for me to correct my misspelling of measurement.
Your pumpkin needs a plate, doesn't it. Your thinking and reasoning seem to me to be accurate and well-considered, and as usual you have backed everything up properly. You even managed to get the very last pic posted just as I had finished checking everything else. 8) ;D 8)
-
I think it does Sue :) I'll keep my eyes open for one.
Regarding the date of these fruit form lidded boxes, there is a cut glass upright form of one with stalk and on a round plate, with a 'leaf' shaped cut rim around the plate, in the book Das Bohmische Glas Band II seite 102 , II.130 . Neuwelt, dated c.1830. So they were popular for a long period.
-
a butter box very similar to this one is shown in 'From Neuwelt to the Whole World, Mergl.J' page 175 prduction number 140/II, 140/III as an illustrated design:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/en-gb/item/18081485_bowlengefa-becher-und-fubecher
The Eisglas jug and goblet both with snake shown in plate 206 on the same page are dated to c.1865. The book says it was very popular right throughout the 1860s.
The book says that in the 3month period April to June 1865 alone, Franz Steigerwald paid Neuwelt Glassworks for over 50 sets of jugs and goblets.
-
It's lovely M
-
A pumpkin or a curling stone ;D
I wonder if these boxes started off being quite realistic looking copies of fruit or vegetables and then as things progressed they developed to become more stylised and less organic looking.
There are a few over time in the cmog catalogues. Two in each catalogue all with under plates:
Theresienthaler Crystall-Glas-Fabrik, c.1840 (page 34).
https://www.cmog.org/library/crystall-glas-fabrik-theresienthal?search=library_collection%3A682c8b0119796cda9d8bb660c542347c&page=132
Unknown bohemian factory 1865?-1905? (page 51). Looks like it might depict an overshot finish.
https://www.cmog.org/library/design-books-unidentified-bohemian-factory?search=library_collection%3A682c8b0119796cda9d8bb660c542347c&page=148
Vallérysthal & Portieux, 1873. Page 81. Similar looking handle to yours that looks slightly less organic but bodies that don’t look much like fruit anymore.
https://www.cmog.org/library/collection-de-dessins-repre-sentant-les-demi-cristaux-unis-taille-s-grave-s-et-moule-s?search=library_collection%3A682c8b0119796cda9d8bb660c542347c&page=247
-
;) The cut stalk is too small and too short to be the handle on a curling stone.
And curling stones don't have lids.
I think we can discount this very interesting notion. ;D
-
…the brooms would be useful ;D
-
Thanks for the great links Ekimp.
To be honest the first one I've seen in cut glass dates to c.1830s and is a pineapple shape - referred to as such in the caption if I recall correctly. The second oldest one I've seen is most ornate and is in the Farbenglas book. That's a water melon shape or marrow shaped horizontal box with lots of ribs carefully handcut into it, the ribs are gilded as well as the stalk and it's sat on a leaf shaped underplate with cut rim and also all gilded with gilded veins and edging to the intricately serrated rim. It's in transparent dark green glass so pretty true to marrow shaped form or watermelon perhaps and lots of manhours gone into the making and decorating.
I think they were used with stalks either with ribs or without throughout the 1800s, but in the Harrach book it discusses how they gradually used ribs on them to denote a peeled fruit/vegetable type thing if I've remembered correctly. I think they were used in all forms but perhaps became less ornate as the century wore on simply because less manhours required for a simpler shape? Then of course the snake handled boxes came into fashion in the 1860s.
The ones you've pointed out in the unknown maker catalogue appear to be eisglas. That book looks maybe 1870s to me looking at the other pieces in there. I don't know why they've mentioned 1865/1905. Perhaps it does date to 1865? Some of the white enamelling on coloured glass looks like Julius Mulhaus to me. Interesting that of the two stalk boxes which look like eisglas one has a round plate and the other is a ribbed box and so has a ribbed underplate to match (more expensive option than the plain one maybe?)
Food for thought! thank you for the links.
m
-
:)
On page 83 of the unknown catalogue they show a texture that looks like a crackle type finish whereas I thought the drawing of the boxes looks to show a more granular effect. Shame they don’t know the factory or at least a date. I like the lizards eating the melting rim on page 65.
I bought Farbenglas 1 after you recommended it a while ago as it wasn’t very expensive. It’s not my favourite book to be honest…it’s a bit wordy…and German words at that! On the melon box it looks like they have put the stem in the wrong place, surely should be on the end where the segments come together. Nice box though.
-
I've seen that vase with the lizards eating the rim somewhere - the real thing. Just been trying to wrack my brain to remember where.
Have you read the end of Farbenglas I from page 253 onwards? That's the English translation of the German text throughout the book. It's all concentrated together as no need for photographs as they're already in the German part of the book. The photographs are also captioned in German and then English underneath as I'm sure you've seen. But the text in English is a translation of the rest of the book all concentrated together between pages 253 and 280. It gives incredible detail of the coloured glass shown at the various exhibitions especially Vienna in the 1830s and then onwards. Really fascinating info and it's all in English. It's an absolutely fascinating book because that glass was bought or given to the Technisches Museum Wien at the time it was made and then catalogued into the collection. So the dates and info from those archives are illuminating and definitive.
RE the stalk on the green melon box, the thing is, if it were at the end it wouldn't function as a handle to lift the lid. Artistic licence and all that. And that box is an example of a piece of glass I would never have believed was dated to c.1840. It's unbelievably forward thinking and modernist. I love that piece.
I know what you mean about them looking as though they are a granular effect and they could be, but I think it's supposed to represent rough glass, like Eisglas.
m
-
Ha, no, I didn’t know about the English translation in the back :o Thanks, that makes a big difference. I would’ve seen a blur of small condensed text at the back and thought I’ll never translate all that and so didn’t even register it was in English!
-
Easy to miss if you are reading through the book page by page and to then be left believing it is just the photo captions that are translated.
I think it's the most incredibly informative work on coloured glass development. The best resource in my library for development of Bohemian glass in the period I'm interested in.
m
-
Thanks for the great links Ekimp.
To be honest the first one I've seen in cut glass dates to c.1830s and is a pineapple shape - referred to as such in the caption if I recall correctly. The second oldest one I've seen is most ornate and is in the Farbenglas book. That's a water melon shape or marrow shaped horizontal box with lots of ribs carefully handcut into it, the ribs are gilded as well as the stalk and it's sat on a leaf shaped underplate with cut rim and also all gilded with gilded veins and edging to the intricately serrated rim. It's in transparent dark green glass so pretty true to marrow shaped form or watermelon perhaps and lots of manhours gone into the making and decorating.
I think they were used with stalks either with ribs or without throughout the 1800s, but in the Harrach book it discusses how they gradually used ribs on them to denote a peeled fruit/vegetable type thing if I've remembered correctly. I think they were used in all forms but perhaps became less ornate as the century wore on simply because less manhours required for a simpler shape? Then of course the snake handled boxes came into fashion in the 1860s.
The ones you've pointed out in the unknown maker catalogue appear to be eisglas. That book looks maybe 1870s to me looking at the other pieces in there. I don't know why they've mentioned 1865/1905. Perhaps it does date to 1865? Some of the white enamelling on coloured glass looks like Julius Mulhaus to me. Interesting that of the two stalk boxes which look like eisglas one has a round plate and the other is a ribbed box and so has a ribbed underplate to match (more expensive option than the plain one maybe?)
Food for thought! thank you for the links.
m
Here is a picture of the piece that dates to the 1830s I mentioned above :)
It's I think denoted as a pineapple in the book:
http://czechfoodiesmn.blogspot.com/2011/03/bohemian-glass-at-glasmuseum-passau.html
-
I've seen that vase with the lizards eating the rim somewhere - the real thing. Just been trying to wrack my brain to remember where.
Off topic but found a screen dump I had taken of a vase with lizards eating a rim but had forgotten about it. You can see the vase here: https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/58093970_moserharrach-salamander-vase
They go for Moser/Harrach but looks almost the same as the one from the catalogue of unknown maker.
-
ooh good find!
I keep meaning to go back to that catalogue and have a good look.
m
-
A somewhat sumptuous melon form with under plate:
https://www.gazette-drouot.com/article/les-opalines-un-art-tres-francais/6244
John
-
I think that's Bohemian :) nice colour