Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: bat20 on September 12, 2022, 02:32:04 PM
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Hi, this 7” tall jug is heavy with a wide polished pontil and a lot of wear.The cutting is deep and the handle is also cut in the manner of regency cut glass with cutting on the rim aswell.Always dangerous to guess but I’m wondering if it was made between 1830 to 1850 ,perhaps English ?There are a few inclusions here and there, but it strikes me as a quality piece.My first thought was VSL ,but I don’t think it is,as always I could very possibly be completely off !!,any thoughts ,thanks .
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Handle
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Just as an update and hopefully of some interest to those interested in the history of British glass,I’ve found myself reading through the chapter ,in the excellent Hajdamach book on British glass 1800 to 1914 ,on the Bohemian connection(chapter 4).The British cased glass was a reaction to Bohemian cased glass coming onto the world market place,which by 1840 the English firms from the midlands were producing in numbers,Richardson being in the forefront and in this chapter there are some examples.I think the windows on the neck of my my piece do have a bohemian glass look to them.
I’m more than happy to be corrected on my thoughts in the pursuit of knowledge so please chip in with your thought,I could easily be way off !!
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I think the handle could be the biggest clue to dating this jug and last night I came across some information on handle types whilst reading The Hall Marks of English Glass by R.Wilkinson.This type of handle is dated as being used from 1780 to 1830.This would hint at this piece being a very early example of British cased glass.I have no idea if there was a revival period for handles like this ?,or if was used on the continent at a later time scale?…for reference ,page 21 fig 2
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I haven’t got Wilkinson, is he talking about a top down handle as opposed to a bottom up attachment or something much more specific? As I understand it, you won’t find a bottom up handle before approx late 1860s when the preference transitioned to attaching the handle from the bottom up. You could still find top down handles after this time. A bit like not finding a polished pontil before a certain date but a rough pontil could still be found from any time. Andy McConnell says the bottom up type handle “...became standard practice at British works during the 1870s”.
For example, if you look in Hajdamach page 185 plate 166 jug dated 1862 and page 192 plate 178 jug dated early 1870s, the handles look much the same as yours.
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Thanks for the input Ekimp!,interesting.Don’t think one can take book images and post them so I’ve tried to copy his drawing and text.
Row 1:Handles representing variations of the crude stuck on handle,and two types of round handle and flat looped handles.1640-1680
Row 2:looped rib handle 1740-1780..Heavy handles of many shapes suitable for cutting,and a lighter handle suitable for many small articles 1780-1830
Row 3:By 1830 the method of fixing handles is changed.All handles prior to this date were joined to the article first at the top and then finished at the bottom.Now the handle is fixed first at the base of the article looped upwards and finally is fixed to the top.Last item is a modern handle.
Obviously with exceptions taking your example into account. The handle on my jug is cut with the cutting marks easily visible.It would be interesting to see other handles images if possible ?interesting subject.
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Sorry middle of row 2,looks like mine .
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Thanks for taking the time to do the drawing. There is something similar for dating pewter measures and mugs etc, maybe they followed similar styles.
The date Wilkinson gives of 1830 for the change from top down to bottom up conflicts with the 1870ish date I’ve seen everywhere else it’s mentioned. There are lots of examples in Hajdamach of top down handles post dating 1830 but don’t think he shows any bottom up handle before the late 1860s. Same for McConnell The Decanter (quick flick through). There is an illustration from the Great Exhibition 1851 and the five jugs shown there are all top down.
Some handles here, including applied to a pressed tumbler dated 1854: https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46955.msg264061.html#msg264061
In this topic there are jugs that interestingly have the same acid etched resist transfer pattern but with different style handles: https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,30250.msg392078.html#msg392078
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I think the handle could be the biggest clue to dating this jug and last night I came across some information on handle types whilst reading The Hall Marks of English Glass by R.Wilkinson.This type of handle is dated as being used from 1780 to 1830.This would hint at this piece being a very early example of British cased glass.I have no idea if there was a revival period for handles like this ?,or if was used on the continent at a later time scale?…for reference ,page 21 fig 2
Honestly, I really don't think this dates to that early. The wide polished pontil mark is interesting. I had wondered if it might be from Cristallerie St Louis but not sure about the design on the cut to clear pattern or the rim. Didn't Thomas Webb do a scalloped rim like that? I know S&W did cut to clear glass. Not sure about TW but presume they did.
That handle is interesting. Not cased and also looks quite chunky for the jug in my opinion. Is it facetted/panel cut at all? On a Bohemian piece that handle would be facet cut or panel cut I think. I think the whole piece looks as though it dates to the 1930s but I could be way out.
That said, date wise I would think it would be much later than you are indicating.
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Thanks for the input and I hope in my posts I haven’t come across as adamant about it’s attribution,it’s more about getting there in the end .We have a very thick handle with sharp cutting most commonly seen up to about 1830,mossy wear looking a tad older than 1930,anthemion motif (I think?)described as being used during the period Hajdamach describes in the chapter on ‘the bohemian connection ,in the same chapter plate 57 shows glass with similar cutting,with an obvious bohemian influence…Come on guys you know I’ve always had to learn the hard way !😂😂
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Oh I can see the facet cuts parts on the handle now. Apologies.
So it has a flat part on the top of the handle for the thumb.
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Yup ,and that flat cut at the bottom of the handle you see on regancy cut glass handles
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This is the Richardson candlestick blue over clear overlay from c.1844 (lenses cut all around the foot) - it's the one shown on page 83 of C Hajdamach British Glass
https://www.blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST235
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Nice piece m,sounds like it was tricky to tell between bohemian,French and English as the craze moved on.Here a better photo of the type of wear on the base ,probably accumulated from being dusted every now and then as it’s in a hardly used condition .
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Just some thoughts:
1) Hajdamach says on page 82
'The earliest English designs for cased glass appear in the Richardson pattern books about 1844 (Plate 57). ... At the Manchester Exhibition of 1845-1846 Richardson's displayed blue, green and red cased glass described as 'laudable attempts to rival the produce of Bohemia' (Plate 59).'
I don't know who wrote the report about the Manchester Exhibition, however Bohemian cased glass of that period and earlier included triple overlay items (See Farbenglas 1 page 111 for examples dating to 'before 1837') and was imho incredible in it's production and execution and colours. So is the word laudable is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that reporters comments? For example at the Great Exhibition in 1851 the reporters were still commenting on how English coloured glass was not as good as Bohemian coloured glass.
Anyway, my point is that for it to have been by Richardson date wise it is likely to have been post about 1844.
2) Bohemian glass of the later decades was still using the traditional methods of cutting and faceting handles and shapes so dating them by those attributes alone would be difficult. The whole object, it's base, it's rim, the colour, the design of the shape and the design of the pattern cutting need to be taken together in the round.
I have seen cased Bohemian glass with a large polished pontil on the base dating to c.1850s/60s. Annathal used a large polished pontil mark as did Buquoy. I have two pieces which are triple overlay and definitely Bohemian. They date to 1850/1860 and have a large polished pontil mark on the base. Also a perfume bottle, Bohemian probably Steinschonau that dates to c.1845 that has a large polished base and a polished pontil mark.
It's not that easy to pin these things down.
3) The colour - it's amethyst:
This information from Spiegl W - Glas-forschung 'Farbige Gläser' on page 25 discusses the difficulty of working with amethyst glass.
http://www.glas-forschung.info/pageone/pdf/farbglas.pdf
I wonder then if perhaps your jug was made in a period when amethyst was being supplied ready made to be used? Using ready made colours? I can't quite remember how they work but there was a move from makers making their own colours in the batch, to using ready made colour at some point in the mid 1800s if I recall correctly.
m
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In addition to my thoughts above, on the amethyst colour ... for example there are no items of amethyst glass in the Harrach book 'From Neuwelt to the Whole World'. There is one becher on page on page 91 that is 'partly coated in violet lustre'. It has a very thin flashing on three panels in transparent amethyst which have been finely engraved with flower bouquets. But there are no amethyst pieces and no overlay cut to clear pieces in amethyst.
In Das Bohmische Glas Band II which covers the period 1825-1850, there are no amethyst overlay glass items at all.
There are lilac coloured glasses made by Buquoy but they are Agatin glas (I'll try and find an example to show you). Link now here to a piece:
https://imkinsky.com/en/auction-results/124/649/4/72997
I believe Buquoy offered a very wide range of colour development in their glass for that period. It seems to be something they were known for. But even these are Agatin glas, not amethyst cut to clear.
I don't think it was that easy to make and to maintain the colour in the first half 1800s ( though I know there were Regency? amethyst glass decanters if I recall correctly).
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Yes ,I’ve been searching for amethyst cased glass for a few days and it’s defo the elephant in the room.Georgian all amethyst on the other hand abounds .In the Bohemia glass making area they started casing glass just after 1800..It’s an odd piece in a way,heavy with a slightly oversized handle and a lot of skilled work going into it ?You wouldn’t say elegant..maybe strong would be better…Or a missing link ??
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Thanks for the input and I hope in my posts I haven’t come across as adamant about it’s attribution,it’s more about getting there in the end .We have a very thick handle with sharp cutting most commonly seen up to about 1830,mossy wear looking a tad older than 1930,anthemion motif (I think?)described as being used during the period Hajdamach describes in the chapter on ‘the bohemian connection ,in the same chapter plate 57 shows glass with similar cutting,with an obvious bohemian influence…Come on guys you know I’ve always had to learn the hard way !😂😂
I don't think it's an anthemion motif. However that design of a wavy pattern of thin leaves was used in the 1820s in French enamelling and also on Bohemian enamelled glass. I wouldn't say that puts your jug in the 1820s however that pattern was in use then.
And by the way, I could be wrong on all of these thoughts so I'm always open to correction :)
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The leaves cut around the shoulder look like typical Intaglio type cuts, the technique between cutting and engraving supposedly developed by Northwood in around 1890. Ref Hajdamach pages 289-290.
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Maybe arcanthus ??,Any thoughts are very welcome and many thanks for your input m,it’s given me loads to think about.
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I don't think they are acanthus leaves either.
I think they're kind of like Myosotis leaves (perhaps supposed to represent Myosotis leaves?) and in the French enamelled 1820s glass that was indeed what they were along with little forget-me nots. Also in Bohemian glass a similar motif in that period.
https://plantatlas.brc.ac.uk/plant/myosotis-scorpioides
But I still don't think that puts your jug that early. Difficult one.
Perhaps it is later 1800s whilst the transition from top down to bottom up handles was still going on, and when amethyst colouring could be bought to use?
The rim is very unusual as well. Is it cut into those scalloped shapes? All that cutting does look as though it could be Bohemian.
Just thinking of other possible makers you could look into that aren't Bohemian:
St Louis
Baccarat
Val St Lambert
American? - I know nothing about American makers at all.
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amethyst cut to clear brings quite a few items up.
This item is labelled Beyer - has a similar base and colour? :
https://www.bonanza.com/items/like/730986082/clear-crystal-vase
same vase here on ebay:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224937760919?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=224937760919&targetid=293946777986&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9045619&poi=&campaignid=17116423086&mkgroupid=134652533165&rlsatarget=pla-293946777986&abcId=9300856&merchantid=137623154&gclid=Cj0KCQjwmouZBhDSARIsALYcouriEsl-qOecO14Uo499CdrkgjoR251Jwt2vmn_NS20hx8MuozrX--waAlnoEALw_wcB
I don't know anything of the history of Beyer sorry.
Was just wondering if perhaps yours was a very early piece of their cased glass perhaps? But unsure if the handle might rule that out.
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I've randomly clicked on many of the German makers here but the handle is different to those I've looked at (bottom up handles):
https://www.glas-musterbuch.de/Deutschland.10.0.html
however it might be worth trawling through perhaps?
m
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Thanks again for you thoughts everyone ,I’ll keep looking .
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Small amount of 1951 information from 'Foreign Commerce Weekly Volume 44-45' 1951 on page 7
about Beyer&Co Neustadt
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=waEeAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA20-PA7&lpg=RA20-PA7&dq=Beyer%26co+neustadt&source=bl&ots=ITP14WjH1y&sig=ACfU3U0EDnfoBWRBVZf8KjsNd2nef4gV3Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiozcjN45j6AhWHXcAKHXLMC-wQ6AF6BAgZEAM#v=onepage&q=Beyer%26co%20neustadt&f=false
Not sure if your jug can be related to that vase because of the intricate cutting on the rim and the handle application, which might indicate a much earlier production. However the large polished pontil mark is the same finish and then it's also amethyst and quite chunky cut to clear.
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It has similarities to ones made by Webb and Corbett shown here.
https://www.glas-musterbuch.de/Webb-Corbett-1910.358+B6YmFja1BJRD0zNTgmcHJvZHVjdElEPTE0MzkzJnBpZF9wcm9kdWN0PTM1OCZkZXRhaWw9.0.html
Curiously the No.10760 appears to have a top down handle
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It does. That might give the shape a better date time frame maybe? That jug does indeed look as though it's been given a top down handle application.
Unfortunately, that rim isn't on any of those items and it's specifically cut in that scalloped shape.
Whether it turns out to be or not, I'm curious as to who Beyer were. There's very little info on them to be searched.
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The Webb Corbett link is interesting. So out of ten jugs shown from as late as 1910 and one still has a top down handle!
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Webb Corbett looks promising on the strong cuts side of things , difficult to tell but the bases maybe cut as well ?the cutting on this seems pretty sharpish and I wonder if Webb Corbett acid dipped to polish the cutting (may have miss remembered that?,Paul used to mention it as a way of dating cut glass )The handle on mine also seems a bit oversized ?..Having said all that I’ll look in that direction aswell .
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Sorry I should of added the cutting lines are fairly obvious to the naked eye.
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Just been browsing a museum collection and there's a Schreiber Glass Factory jug in there with a top down handle dating to 1896 (enamelled, blown glass, not cased and not the same as yours at all but nonetheless a thick top down handle)
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Yes ,there seems to be no doubt top down handles appear after their main period of use ,looking at the later ones it seems to be an aesthetic decision on suiting a certain jug shape ?