Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: new2glassbutenthusiastic on December 17, 2022, 07:48:37 PM
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Hi, I am brand new to your site and found you whilst reserching a recent find earlier today. What a great site this is, I think have identified the piece from your various links but still wanted to post to verify it and in case it is useful for others.
I believe it is an early Monart piece, the base is ground and polished, the pontil is lower down than the base and unpolished. It looks like shape HE, size VI with a millefiore stopper using canes identified as A01,A02 & A03 used by Salvatore Ysart on an IE bottle. Two of the canes appear to be number 17 and 21 on another cane page which I think Frank posted.
Other features are :- it is full of bubbles, very variable in size but broadly following the green coloured swirls, up towards the neck the swirls include what looks like copper aventurine. To me it seems uncased but i'm no expert.
I will attach photos from another device hopefully and would appreciate comments on my above efforts at ID. approx age and any value would be nice but not essential. It appears unsigned and wanted to also ask about that?
thanks in advance
B
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Hi and welcome. :)
You do appear to have indentified it correctly, but I have some comments which I hope you will find useful.
As Monart, it has what is called the "button" over the pontil scar. A small blob of glass applied after making, and which often supported a label. I don't think they had labels which were small enough for putting on things this small size, don't worry about the lack of signature or maker's mark - there wouldn't have been one.
The pontil is the blob of glass put on the end of the pontil rod to hold the glass object to it, so the maker can carry on working the vessel and the rim.
The pontil mark or scar is the name for the mark left when this is broken off at the end.
We do not tend to discuss values - they're too subjective, and get in the way of discussing glass which is why we're here.
But do a search on past sold auctions to get a ball-park figure if you want.
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Hi Sue, many thanks for the speedy reply, yes I'm used to ground and broken rough pontils but this one was new for me and somewhere mentioned grinding off the salmon imprint on later strathearn glass which was worrying.
So glad it seems a genuine older piece, its a lovely thing and I felt it had some age to it from the random wear on the polished base ( I'm learning !). I guess its difficult to be accurate on age since canes were used over long periods? Do the bubbles style provide any clue to age?
The Monart / Ysart story is quite a tortuous one but amazingly well researched by dedicated people which allowed me to home in on its background.
If anyone wishes to have more photos etc for your research please let me know and many thanks again to you all for providing this amazing resource
regards
Barry
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The pontil is the small blob of hot glass that gets put between the rod and the item when it is being hot worked.
When it is broken off, it leaves a pontil scar. The pontil (the bit of hot glass) does not remain on the item. ;) 8) :)
I'm nitpicking about proper terminology. :D
The mark left on the bottom of a bit of glass is NOT called "the pontil".
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thanks Sue, got it now.
One further question, in this and murano style pieces that have aventurine, it is described as gold aventurine but usually to my eye it looks like copper. Am I missing something or does aventurine cover all metals or does this 'gold' just have a higher copper content??
regards
Barry
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I know it can come in a very fine, dusty "gold" appearance and as a kind of copper glitter inside glass, but I don't know the chemistry of the difference between the two. ::)
Frankly, I don't understand how on earth any copper metal stays copper coloured or shiny after being exposed to the heat of melted glass. Copper tarnishes in air at room temperature. With heat, it oxidises and turns black. ???
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I see , thats interesting I can only assume that the copper content of the gold is so low that we get the coppery colour but without too much oxidisation. After all the 3 coloured gold bangles ( white/yellow/copper) you see in the high street don't tarnish do they.
Maybe others can help us?
regards
Barry
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:-[ I'm not a physical scientist. And when it comes to any kind of jewellery, I only like second hand real stuff or costume stuff. This isn't something I know anything about.
I'm surprised others haven't said anything yet, there are some very knowledgable people here who specialise in Ysart glass. I just know a wee bit because my brother collects it.
Not everybody pops in every day. Have a bit of patience - I'm sure they will have plenty to say about an Ink Bottle when they do appear. ;D
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Aventurine is made with copper, the copper is held in suspension within the glass. There is no gold involved. Presumably the final colour of the aventurine will depend on the base colour of the glass that holds it and any impurities added deliberately or otherwise.
Talk of gold in the context of aventurine is predicated either on ignorance or a desire to sex up a given product.
Copper will tarnish in the presence of oxygen, no oxygen will reach the aventurine when it is sealed within glass....
John
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A nice piece of early Monart you have there. It looks to me it could be shape IE rather than HE. A straight on photo of bottle would help confirm IE or HE. The colour code is 248B. I have a Monart lemonade jug that colour code and it has uranium in the glass. You should check your bottle for uranium. All Monart pieces that left the factory would have had a Monart label on it, no matter how small or large the piece was.
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It's the getting of copper particles into the glass that gets me worried about reactions - not the fact that once it's in, it will be fine, and oxygen is sealed away from it.
Thanks for the info about small labels, Gary! I'll ask a moderator to put a score through my wrong comment - I don't want to leave misinformation there.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldstone_(glass) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldstone_(glass))
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The link isn't quite right, but you can get to the right place from it.
I knew oxygen in the air was a problem - I just didn't consider that it can be removed. :-[
It explains other colours of aventurine too, I did know green came from Chromium, because that's how it sometimes ended up in bits of Monart - it appeared because of a chromium scum that accidentally got on top of the pot.
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hi again all,
I really appreciate all your responses and glad we cleared up that 'gold' aventurine issue John :), which I keep seeing everywhere. Regarding the shape Gary I have attached more photos hopefully that helps. I think the canes were also identified from an IE bottle if I recall so that would fit perfectly if it turns out to be that shape if they worked in batches. By chance I have tested with a UV light as my wee keyring light arrived yesterday for testing a Galliano Ferro sommerso bowl that I picked up which turned out to be uranium, however nothing showed up on this bottle. When you say early Monart is it possible to date with any certainty and make it an elder Salvadore or a young Paul (or other brother) piece or did they collaborate i.e stoppers by Paul for example. Just curious how long till its a proper antique? I have to say I'm pleased to find some Scottish glass with some history, since I am in Aberdeen it didn't travel too far...
regards and thanks again to all
B
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Definitions of "proper antique" can vary. Some say 100 years, it certainly used to be that, but I think 70 years is now considered enough.
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Hi Barry, thanks for extra images. Your piece is shape HE and was made between 1924 to 1939.